Speed matters, because weapons are balanced from their DPS. Say a weapon got 200 DPS; and 3.0 speed, then the avg. swing would be 600 (could be 200-1000 range, or 500-700, doesn't matter at all). If the speed would decrease to 4.0 speed, then the average damage would be 800 (again, could be 200-1400 range, or 700-900, doesn't matter).

This makes slower weapons superior, since the SoB damage is purely based on the actual damage, which is higher with a slow weapon.

Also, if it isn't changed, instant attacks like CS and DS also benefit from this slow speed, since they take the weapon damage, then add DPS from attack power and multiplies with normalized speed (used to multiply with weapon speed, which made slow weapons incredibly good for instant attacks).

All in all, slow speed = higher damage from the same DPS = higher SoB values.

I am still slightly unclear on how much weapon speed will effect your overall dps.

Which of the two provide more overall dps?

[Furious Gladiator's Greatsword]
[Betrayer of Humanity]

It's a little hard to judge with the haste boh has and superior crit.

This is why Rawr is there, to compare two item easier. The S6 weapons easily beat Betrayer due to its higher dps and slower speed.
Rawr is easy to use, you just load your character then go to Main Hand and see which items would give higher dps. Each 0.1 speed decrease is something like 10-20 dps better, so while it is nice to have a slow weapon, it can be better to use a 3.4 speed weapon over a 3.6 speed weapon (for example, comparing Cryptfiend's Bite to Betrayer).

The "generic" answer - read the text which says "DPS" on the item. Obviously this does not take into effect bonus stats (AP, Crit, et al).

For a more specific, detailed solution, plug them both into:
A) Rawr
B) A spreadsheet (Redcape's or Bellator's)
C) A loot ranking website
D) An electrical socket

Hint - more than one answer can be correct.

Nice work frmorrison but I think it's worth pondering over if the old "highest single target DPS = BiS" model is accurate for the Ulduar era seeing that add fights are now the norm rather than the exception, and will likely remain so in the future if I'm to guess about it.

My biggest gripe with the current BiS model is the value assigned to haste which is about equal to ArP on a single target but in reality ArP will give you more DPS per stat point over a full Ulduar clear.

I realize this doubles your work but I think creating BiS sets using an alternate set of assumptions with multi target fights (say the average amount of targets across Ulduar) in mind is needed to properly reflect what is actually the best gear.

Of course coming up with an accurate average number won't be easy either, I have no clue.

Haste > ArP. ArP only affects about 40% of your total damage. Although in an AoE environment divine storm might be better, it is nowhere near as effective as consecration. I can't speak for others here but if you are gearing ArP just to do well on AOE fights, you are doing it wrong.

Haste and ArP have the exact same value both in my sheet and when it comes to Redcape's lower ilevel base figures so I think it's pretty safe to say they are "about" equal.

Apart from that you missed the essence of my post, it's not about just doing well on AoE fights, it's about doing well on all fights.

Single target BiS is indeed single target BiS but if only 6 out of 14 endgame fights (random figure) are single target fights then it's not really so BiS overall.

Edit : Also in reply to frmorrison; I just double checked my redcape sheet and it does indeed tell me haste and ArP are worth 81 DPS per 100 each (80 each going back a tier), and Redcape's basevalues for his gear which comes with the sheet says ArP is worth 73 DPS for him vs. Haste @ 72 DPS.

I can't locate anywhere in Rawr which lists the DPS return for each stat so I'm not sure how you conclude Haste > ArP on less than 3 targets.

Instead of using random figures, we can just use facts. Off the top of my head, Kologarn, XT, Razorscale, Mimiron, Thorim, Freya and Auriaya have AoE aspects. That said, only on Kologarn (Splash damage on arms), Freya (Adds), Mimiron (Body splash damage in P4) and perhaps Thorim (Arena) are these multi-target aspects worthy of any consideration for a special gear set.

At the end of the day, nearly all Ulduar encounters end when the single boss is dead. Sacrificing dps on that target to speed up less pressing aspects of an encounter would not be wise.

I am only using Rawr for these lists (not 2.2.3, it had some bugs that will be fixed). Go to the drop menu where you enter Helm, Amulet, etc. and find relative stat values near the bottom. Then change the number of targets to see how Rawr models haste vs. ArP. Around 2.8 target is when Rawr said ArP was better than haste.

I decided since only encounters have AoE that really matters (Nature boss, Arm boss, Mimiron (only on p4), Thorim), keeping the number @ 1 is the best approach. I guess you personally can model the number of targets as 1.23 (reflecting 3.25/14 bosses), however doing that does not change any list that I made.

Thanks for the lesson on where to find the stat values, I could have sworn I had looked everywhere.

Based on Rawr you are correct and haste is indeed much better than ArP so I'll put that argument to rest and let Redcape and Endoscient fight it out.

As for how important AoE is then I'm still not convinced it's being properly valued, I've seen the claim presented that the AoE on the cat lady for instance doesn't matter because the swarm will die in the general AoE anyway but I think people are forgetting you're not there in a vacuum, there's a raid with you and the faster the swarm goes down the faster your mages and locks etc. will be back doing max single target DPS to the boss itself.

Anyhow thanks for the responses, I don't blame you for wanting to stick to the one BiS model.

So I've seen human, dwarf, and belfadin BiS stats, how about one for a dreanai? I been working on one but i keep coming up with too much hit and only about 6250dps.

I have a question about two of the items in our BIS lists which I have not seen come up:

1. Dark Edge of Depravity. Has anyone even gotten this? So far it is not even up on Wowhead.
2. Has anyone gotten Soul Devouring Cinch?

I ask because Hard Mode Yogg is simillar to OS3. You would think with each addtional keeper you would get 1 extra piece of loot. However, the guild who did Yogg with only one keeper on MMO-Champ only got one extra piece of loot. (Seal of the Betrayed King)

What did they get for not having the first two keepers? An Extra fragment? Extra T8 tokens?

Would be nice to know how many keepers you need to get these drops if possible.

Right now I am figuring that Dark Edge of Depravity is 4 keepers up, Seal of the Betrayed King is confirmed at 3.

I have a feeling the Belt will be 3 keepers on 10 man as well.

I'm guessing for doing the "medium modes" it's just an extra conquest badge. That's how killing the Runemaster last on Iron Council and having 1 tower up on Flame Leviathan seem to work. Extra loot/higher item level loot seems to be from hard modes only... but that's just speculation on my part.

As far as I can tell, there are simply hard mode levels for 25 man, either you completed hard mode(and are eligible for one extra piece of loot from the hard mode loot table) or you didn't, despite the fact that various bosses have multiple difficulty levels. So for Freya hard mode is at 3 trees, and doing 2 or 1 gives you nothing but some warmup for the real hard mode. With Yogg-Saron, for whatever reason, the hard mode is set at 1 keeper helping instead of 0. There was some discussion somewhere on EJ about how 10 mans give partial hard mode incentives in the form of conquest badges while 25 mans give no partial incentives, but the fact remains that on 25 man, you have to do the full hard mode to get any extra reward.

So for Yogg, you get nothing extra at 3 keepers or 2 keepers, at 1 keeper you get 1 piece of hard mode loot, and at 0 keepers you get nothing(that I know of). Each boss with a hard mode has a hard mode loot table from which you get 1 piece of loot if you complete the hard mode. Dark Edge of Depravity is on the Yogg hard-mode loot table and I see no reason to assume that you need to do anything beyond the standard hard mode to access it.

In 2.2.4. something changed and dwarf BiS is 6683 and the human gets 6675.

The main change was that Berserking was increased from 1 ppm to 1.2 ppm, which I believe is what current testing indicates.

What was weird though was that dwarf BiS suddenly > Human BiS, when in 2.2.2 it was the other way around.

Another thing though that might be wrong in Rawr 2.2.4: The Furious Gladiator's Libram of Fortitude seems to count the 144AP buff twice. I noticed this when modeling the Deadly version, which isn't modeled at all in this version. This might be one of the reasons the setups DPS has gone up by such a large amount.

The first one is because in 2.2.3 I fixed a bug in weapon normalization, while it was minor it was enough to push it over the edge.

Ugh, some other developer messed up the Armory parsing of the Glad Librams. To fix it you need to manually edit the two items and remove the special effect that procs on spell cast. I'll post more detailed info on how to fix it when my raid is done.

So thankfully the default item cache has the correct libram values, but if you refresh the item data on either of the Glad librams they will be worth around twice of what they should be. If this happens follow these steps.

1. Right click on the item and select "Edit..."
2. Find the group box titled "Special Effects".
3. Click on the drop down box and select "144 Attack Power (10 Sec on Spell Cast)"
4. Hit the Delete button
5. You are done!

So for that bug, but 2.2.5 should be released in a day or two which will fix this.

Most of the BiS lists probably contain the Furious libram bug and should be updated accordingly. Looks like this error was in place even in 2.2.2. After I've fixed it I'm getting 6585 on Dwarf BiS and 6577 on Human BiS.

What I came up with for BIS Human is 6706 BinlongBIS.xml

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