Considering the threat boost we just got with the Seal of Vengeance 5-stack proc changes, I'm taking the 10% hit to Righteous Fury as compensation for that to keep us closer to other tanks' threat. We'll still be well ahead of any of the other tanks for burst and sustained threat. Considering Warlocks were the only ones riding my butt on the threat meters prior to 3.2, and they're soul-shatter cooldown was lowered to 3-minutes, I'm not particularly worried about a threat reduction.
The change from 30% Stam to 60% Str SP conversation is a typical Blizzard averaging. Its a boost to threat if you're in threat gear, its a nerf if you're in avoidance/EH gear. I keep several sets of gear on me, and on my "balanced" set of gear (decent avoidance, decent BV, decent EH, decent threat), its a total wash (I actually gain about 6 SP). In my "Threat" gear, I gain about 80 SP and in my avoidance/EH set I lose about 100. I'm sure the % multipliers that Blizzard used were created based on what they felt would be "average" Str and Stam values either from actual example or from their tier models.
The RF change is a 5% reduction in threat, not a 10% reduction. (It's 180/190, not 80/90.)
And the spellpower change is trivial. Spellpower affects maybe half of our tps, and the coefficients aren't that large. Going from 30% of stamina to 60% of strength isn't going to make a noticeable difference in your threat output.
My comrades are my weapons, and I am their shield.
The RF change is a 5% reduction in threat, not a 10% reduction. (It's 180/190, not 80/90.)
And the spellpower change is trivial. Spellpower affects maybe half of our tps, and the coefficients aren't that large. Going from 30% of stamina to 60% of strength isn't going to make a noticeable difference in your threat output.
I guess it really depends on what you think is a noticeable difference. On progression fights, when tanks are in EH gear and gemmed for stam, this will result in less SP and therefore less threat. Combined with the RF nerf, it may not be a noticeable difference, then again it very well may be. On Hard Modes, even while doing 8 or 9k TPS, the DPS sometimes get awfully close, especially so on Vezax. I understand balancing issues, but that doesn't mean that I'll like being nerfed. How many times would DPS have to pull or would I have to call out for Salvs on people until this does amount to a "noticeable difference?"
Also, the decreased HoJ cooldown was useful and would have been nice for coliseum fights. I'll miss it dearly.
This seems pretty low to me. Am I wrong? Is this sufficient hit rating? Or should prot paladins in 3.2 consider picking up the +128 hit rating DPS trinket from vendors?
It matters how good your group's dps is. You should glyph Taunt so that if you have bag string of misses you can pickup the mob. I don't see much to worry about with around 170 hit, assuming you have the glyph.
Millions of words are written annually purporting to tell how to beat the races, whereas the best possible advice on the subject is found in the three monosyllables: 'Do not try.'
SoV is consistent threat, versus the quick aggro SoR offers. Pick which one you want really.
The magic reduction is of course only worth it if there is a -lot- of magic damage floating around versus heavy physical. Again, it's really up to you to decide whether taking less magic damage is worth the lower block/armor.
Cathela had a great section pertaining to meta gems, but has since moved/deleted it sadly.
Well I'm noticing that the most dangerous moves from bosses that offer the highest chance of getting killed seem to be the special magic based ones.
Originally Posted by Mex
SoR is certainly useful on fights where you don't have time to build SoV stacks, or where judgement snap agro is vital. Because SoV's judgement damage is based on the number of stacks the target has, if you're using judgement to pick up a freshly spawned mob (like the adds on Sartharion, in Thorim's arena, or Yogg's Immortal Guardians) then it won't hit as hard as SoR's judgement. In these cases, where you're often dealing with DPS who are already in the process of AoEing, and healers who are already dropping large heals onto tanks, it can help to make sure you get as much upfront threat as possible, even at the expense of sustained threat. In this situation, SoR is a very viable option.
It hardly needs to be said, but the magical damage reduction meta is great against magic damage, and the armour one is great against physical damage. If I could only ever use one for the rest of my tanking career, I'd take the magic one, but as a general practice I'd recommend carrying around spares to swap in/out, or a backup/spare helm with the alternate meta in it.
Yeah I'm getting real tempted by the magic one. Even though I'm typically an AOE/add tank (figures), most of the things I die to seem to be magic-based attacks. The armor one I think adds something like 520 armor...seems kind of pitiful.
Yeah I'm getting real tempted by the magic one. Even though I'm typically an AOE/add tank (figures), most of the things I die to seem to be magic-based attacks. The armor one I think adds something like 520 armor...seems kind of pitiful.
Now think about it before you make a choice. The magic one, while useful yes, is very limited to just that, magic. It's great in a situation like Fusion Punch on HM IC, where it could really save your life. In a few hard modes like that where the magic attack threatens to knock you dangerously low, even knowing AD can save you, it would surpass the armor one, yes.
Basically, the majority of the damage you will be taking will be physical. You will get the most use out of the armor one. 520 armor, yeah, it doesn't sound like a lot, but it's actually a decent number, and don't forget it'll go up the as you get better gear.
If I boss is going to hit you very hard with a spell, most of the time they hit very hard with their physical hits too. You WILL get the most use out of the armor one in general, the magic one is very situational, so while good, shouldn't be used bar on situations where you actually NEED that magical damage reduction.
It matters how good your group's dps is. You should glyph Taunt so that if you have bag string of misses you can pickup the mob. I don't see much to worry about with around 170 hit, assuming you have the glyph.
I wouldn't be too concerned about that either, actually. With two taunts off the GCD it's very unlikely to see a string of misses like that even with no +hit at all. Since dropping Glyph of Righteous Defense when Hand of Reckoning came out, I haven't seen a point where I wished I had it, even on Algalon.
I may have missed the memo, tried looking back...but anyway.
We geming for pure stamina? Except for meta gem bonus? I got a chest with a +9 stam bonus but it still doesn't look like it's worth it to give up a pure stamina gem.
And say I gotta fill up a red slot. Purple obviously with stamina, but parry or dodge?
Fair enough. If 50 tps is a noticeable difference to you, then the TbtL change is going to hurt. Otherwise, not so much.
To expand on this, TbtL is currently our second (or third, if Crusade is running at 6% against "DUH" mobs) highest threat talent behind 1HWS, running at ~142.7 TPS per talent point (source: Theck's MATLAB TPS Analysis; Maintankadin). With my gear I will lose approximately 13% Spellpower after the change and a 13% reduction in the threat of TbtL works out to an overall loss of ~55.7 TPS. Having said that, folk with better gear than me are suggesting that the gap between Stamina and Strength is actually widening as they gear up, which will make the impact on TPS greater should this be indicative of a general trend. Paired with a 5% reduction in RF scaling and the recent reduction in BV>ShoR threat and we might see that our threat starts to scale very poorly as we gear up.
This, of course, depends on if it is in fact true that the disparity between Strength and Stamina widens post-Tier 9. Until we know that for sure, it's all academic really. I'd expect that for the majority of 3.2 Paladins will remain among the highest threat tanks, despite the changes, just that it may need adjusting in the future if the current item budget trends continue.
I may have missed the memo, tried looking back...but anyway.
We geming for pure stamina? Except for meta gem bonus? I got a chest with a +9 stam bonus but it still doesn't look like it's worth it to give up a pure stamina gem.
And say I gotta fill up a red slot. Purple obviously with stamina, but parry or dodge?
As far as I can see, we gem for at least partial stamina in all slots. Whether you go pure is a matter of taste. From a burst time point of view, my calculation is that avoidance stats are worth roughly half of stamina (assuming my stats, of cause, so take with a grain of salt), so it's a question of situation, gear and taste whether you want to match colors.
Between parry and dodge, probably dodge. If you have a lot of dodge, parry can take the lead.
There was a post earlier in the thread which listed Theck's (I believe) formula for when to gear parry vs dodge. It was something like: go with dodge unless (buffed dodge % - 10)/(buffed parry % -10) > 1.9, then go parry. Really, you should go search for it.
On the subject of TbtL-driven threat, I think even the ~50 tps number people seem to be ballparking probably overstates things a bit. Remember that epic gems were just introduced in 3.2, which, for a person already stacking stam and with typical tier gear, probably reflected a 2% stamina and thus TbtL threat gain just by re-gemming (and if you were someone like me, who decided that the new AD made stacking stam the way to go and shifted from a more balanced approach to sticking pure blue gems everywhere possible, then the gain was considerably larger). The 50 tps loss is being calculated against this new, higher level of threat.
With 3.2 we were handed another 20 tps, for free, in the form of better stam gems on top of being great threat tanks to begin with, so its really only a 30 tps net loss, not 50.
Edit - Bah. Beaten to the punch on the dodge/parry ratio.
As far as I can see, we gem for at least partial stamina in all slots. Whether you go pure is a matter of taste. From a burst time point of view, my calculation is that avoidance stats are worth roughly half of stamina (assuming my stats, of cause, so take with a grain of salt), so it's a question of situation, gear and taste whether you want to match colors.
So if avoidance stats are worth roughly half, then +10 dodge and +15 stamina > +30 stamina and socket bonuses are icing on the cake? The why are people saying they're geming only stamina except for meta...
Well really your own personal gearing strategy is precicely that - personal. Only you really know what's best for you and the content you plan to tank, as both Stam stacking and colour matching are viable depending on your gear level generally and what it is you're doing. There's really no single best way to manage your gems and enchants. I know this may sound like a cop out, but I guess as a very general guideline you want to stack EH if you're doing Ulduar-25 (especially Hard Modes) and a mixture for other content. Really hard to say without knowing what avoidance you have on your gear already, etc though.
So if avoidance stats are worth roughly half, then +10 dodge and +15 stamina > +30 stamina and socket bonuses are icing on the cake? The why are people saying they're geming only stamina except for meta...
I'm missing your logic here. If avoidance stats are worth half, then 10 dodge is worth 5 stamina, and you're comparing 20 stamina with 30 stamina.
So if avoidance stats are worth roughly half, then +10 dodge and +15 stamina > +30 stamina and socket bonuses are icing on the cake? The why are people saying they're geming only stamina except for meta...
What he means is avoidance is worth about 0.5, and stamina is worth about 1. I gem for the socket bonus if there is a 9 stamina bonus with a blue + other color gems.
So using the simple formula and a 30 stam + 10 avoidance/15 stamina = 9 stamina bonus, you get 59 points, versus 60 point just using stamina.
Personally, I prefer agility for my one non-stamina gem, because you get dodge, armor, and crit.
Millions of words are written annually purporting to tell how to beat the races, whereas the best possible advice on the subject is found in the three monosyllables: 'Do not try.'
So if avoidance stats are worth roughly half, then +10 dodge and +15 stamina > +30 stamina and socket bonuses are icing on the cake? The why are people saying they're geming only stamina except for meta...
Ah, sorry. I was a bit unclear. What I mean is that according to my calculations, the burst time improvement I gain from an avoidance gem is roughly half of what I get from a stamina gem. Since the first half of any gem I use is stamina (and as far as I can see, that is always the greatest benefit), the question is whether the other half should be another +15 stamina, og +10 dodge/defense to gain socket bonus. Since the dodge is about half the benefit, I generally take the color-match if the bonus is more than half the value of gemming for another 15 stamina.
So as a rule of thumb, socket bonuses become worth taking somewhere between 7 and 10 stamina per gem you have to match. This assumes, though, that burst time is your main goal. Many go for pure stamina because they prefer higher EH values over higher burst time values.
But take all of this with a good grain of salt. My calculations are very sketchy, since I was ball-parking the numbers. As long as you don't gem for pure avoidance above the block cap, you won't go all wrong.
After looking at the math a little more closely, I'm wondering if TbtL is all that important anyway. Someone tell me if I'm wrong about this:
In a 9/6/9, the following are affected by spellpower:
Consecration: 32% coefficient per cast
Seal of Vengeance DoT: 19.5% for a 5-stack over 9 seconds (3 ticks)
Judging Vengeance on a 5-stack DoT: 33%
Holy Shield: 9% per block
That's it. HotR and ShR aren't affected by SP at all, nor is the per-hit damage of SoV.
Let's assume 3 blocks per 9-second cycle, for a 27% per-cycle coefficient for Holy Shield. In this case, the total spellpower-to-damage coefficient for the 9-second cycle is 111.5%, or 12.4% per second. Add in one-hand spec and it's 13.6% per second. If you want to count Crusade too, that bumps it up to 14.0% or 14.5% depending on the target.
Now how much spellpower do you get from TbTL? In my current gear I've got 1277 strength unbuffed; in a raid I'll get another 238 from MotW and the shaman/DK buff (including Divine Strength) and then BoK will give another 10% of the total, giving me a total 1667 strength raid-buffed. (Am I missing anything?) Conveniently this gives me exactly 1000 spellpower.
Applying the coefficient above, 3 points in TbtL gives me 145 holy DPS, or 261 tps. This is definitely less than the 6% I'd get for Crusade against "preferred" targets; I haven't checked my total threat output lately so I'm not sure exactly where it would stack up against the 3% from Crusade against other targets.
Another thing to consider: Dropping TbtL disproportionately reduces your AoE threat, because spellpower has large effects on Consecration, Holy Shield, and the SoV DoT, which are much more important for AoE threat than single-target.
I'm not sure this is worth anything more than some theorycrafting, but there you go.
My comrades are my weapons, and I am their shield.
It's probably worth noting that it will slightly weaken SS too, although how relevant that is to most tanks will depend on their raid makeup and the specific encounter.
A latent appliance fetishist is someone who refuses to admit to his or herself that sexual gratification can only be achieved through the use of machines.
- L. Ron Hoover
With the 3.2.2 change to SoC (SoC procs hit two additional targets) would you be better off using SoC as an AoE tanking seal for threat? Particularly considering the interaction between this new behaviour and HotR?
Speccing into Seal of Command as a tank would be akin to glyphing for HOTR. The extra AOE damage is great when you actually need to AOE stuff, but does jack on single-target fights, which means its usefulness will hinge upon how often you're actually tanking more than one target.
Personally, I'll pick it up, but only because I run heroics a lot and I'm usually pining for my Druid's no-cooldown-Swipe when chain-pulling like a maniac*.
Finally, it's worth noting that Blizzard intends HOTR to only proc Command once per chained target, as opposed to chained targets proccing their own Command-cleaves, even if the latter behavior is currently how the Seal works in the PTR.
* On the other hand, I'd then be pining for my Paladin's front-loaded threat when I'm on my Druid
Slightly off-topic: THIS POST indicates that we may get 10% STR on Blessing of Sanctuary to make it mesh better with the GBTL change, on top of the 10% STA we're already getting, though that still means we're losing out on the AGI and INT of a full Kings.
GC has firmly stated that SoC will only chain off single target attacks. So, presumably auto-attacks and ShoR for prot, but not Hammer. For really big confused AoE situations (Thorim phase 1, for example), I'm positively drooling at the prospect of using this. For single target obviously you're gonna use SoV, but I think the jury is still out on 2-4 mob situations which is superior.
I think Redcloak's number crunching for Ret found SoC and SoV to be roughly even at 2 mobs, SoC superior for 3 or 4 and SoV superior for 1. For tanking, however, obviously the situation will be hugely dependent on your circumstances. How many mobs are you expected to tank? How long do you have to hold them? How fast do you have to build threat? Answers to these will affect which seal you want to use. Additionally, SoC breaks CC, so obviously it won't play well with big CC pulls.
I'm thinking SoV is still going to be better for AoE tanking up to 4 mobs. Since HotR applies SoV stacks to all targets it hits. Faster weapons seem to favor SoV in tanking situations since you can stack it faster. changing melee targets to stack up SoV on all target and keeping it refreshed on all targets with HotR seems the best way to keep threat on all targets. Even without switching target you can have SoV fully stacked on all targets pretty quickly.
GC has firmly stated that SoC will only chain off single target attacks. So, presumably auto-attacks and ShoR for prot, but not Hammer. For really big confused AoE situations (Thorim phase 1, for example), I'm positively drooling at the prospect of using this. For single target obviously you're gonna use SoV, but I think the jury is still out on 2-4 mob situations which is superior.
I think Redcloak's number crunching for Ret found SoC and SoV to be roughly even at 2 mobs, SoC superior for 3 or 4 and SoV superior for 1. For tanking, however, obviously the situation will be hugely dependent on your circumstances. How many mobs are you expected to tank? How long do you have to hold them? How fast do you have to build threat? Answers to these will affect which seal you want to use. Additionally, SoC breaks CC, so obviously it won't play well with big CC pulls.
The name is Redcape. Close, but no cookie.
Also, my calculations were for ret, which is massively different. The seals and spec change dramatically and are based on which attacks proc specific abilities, etc. The numbers I generated might randomly hold true for prot, but I have no reason to believe that they will without going ahead and doing the math. Remember also that SoV does not function for ret on multiple targets (unless you build it with 5 autoattacks on each) while SoV works great on several targets for prot because of HotR. Lastly you are probably talking about snap threat instead of sustained threat which changes the numbers yet again.
08/14/09, 1:50 PM
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