So how important is it to reach the block cap (102.4 avoidance)? I have all the cap in current gear, but I could drop to 101% and get a more block value and dodge. Rawr is rating the 101% setup higher (because of that mitigation difference).
I guess Redoubt's 10% chance to get 30% block would be up a few times to cover the missing 1.4% avoidance.
Millions of words are written annually purporting to tell how to beat the races, whereas the best possible advice on the subject is found in the three monosyllables: 'Do not try.'
The most important thing is to realise the distinction between block as a partial avoidance stat, and block capping as a concept. Block capping turns your block value into physical EH as long as you've got holy shield up (ie no silence, charges aren't being eaten up). It's useful anywhere where the EH gained by capping is superior to the stats lost in order to get there. In your example, for instance, swapping Unerring Mettle in would increase your physical EH by your block value (plus the BV and extra str on the neck), which would likely be a not-insignificant increase. If you're tanking a boss like Algalon, then it would be pretty attractive.
There's a lot of negativity towards block, which is understandable, since as a partial avoidance stat it's next to useless in Ulduar. However, block capping is always useful because it converts what was previously unreliable and minor into EH (somewhat similar to the non-leapfrog changes to AD this patch). If your "best" gear is already such that you're close enough to the block cap to get there by swapping in one piece of block gear, then I'd heartily recommend it. However, I'd advocate against using block gear on general principle if you're tanking in Ulduar. If, for instance, Unerring Mettle didn't actually get you to 102.4, then Warlord's Depravity would probably be better.
edit -- on redoubt; it's only relevant to block as a form of partial avoidance, since its uptime can't be guaranteed. Yes, if you're fighting a fast hitting boss, or lots of adds, then it will be up quite a lot, and cover the extra ~1%. However it's not effective health, and while that doesn't necessarily diminish its value, it certainly alters it, and the contexts in which it can be applied.
A latent appliance fetishist is someone who refuses to admit to his or herself that sexual gratification can only be achieved through the use of machines.
- L. Ron Hoover
Ah, my bad on the name. Had just been pining for OotS which is on hiatus and had redcloak on the brain.
Beyond naming snafus, perhaps I didn't emphasize the second part of what I said enough. Sure, you've ballparked a break even for ret, which I threw out as a point of interest, but trying to optimize multi-target tanking is a tricky creature to optimize around as circumstances will trump mechanics. Sure, SoV could generate superior threat on up to 4 targets but you have to generate a bunch of stacks to make that happen, and if you're tanking 3,4 or more mobs at once, they're probably getting AoEed down, which means you want threat on ALL of them, ideally right now, which would mean SoC... unless they're a mobs you aren't supposed to kill at all like the Crypt Lords Kel'thuzard summons which you could probably tank with SoL and be fine. The point being that its not as straightforward as it is for ret.
So how important is it to reach the block cap (102.4 avoidance)? I have all the cap in current gear, but I could drop to 101% and get a more block value and dodge. Rawr is rating the 101% setup higher (because of that mitigation difference).
I guess Redoubt's 10% chance to get 30% block would be up a few times to cover the missing 1.4% avoidance.
I believe the consensus among hard mode level Paladins is that 102.4% is nice, but not a priority. I favor the Conq helm over Faceless because it has shield block rating that I can actually make use of and puts me at unhitable status, but in general I'd never wear a shield block rating + block value item over an avoidance item.
The most important thing is to realise the distinction between block as a partial avoidance stat, and block capping as a concept. Block capping turns your block value into physical EH as long as you've got holy shield up (ie no silence, charges aren't being eaten up). It's useful anywhere where the EH gained by capping is superior to the stats lost in order to get there. In your example, for instance, swapping Unerring Mettle in would increase your physical EH by your block value (plus the BV and extra str on the neck), which would likely be a not-insignificant increase. If you're tanking a boss like Algalon, then it would be pretty attractive.
I believe you're overestimating the magic of guaranteed EH. It's not as if the damage a player can take magically increases the moment you hit 100%. All that happens is that the last (small) risk of an unblocked hit disappears. That's nice, but an unblocked hit is not devastating in any form. If an unblocked hit is a major problem for you, you have bigger problems.
You could claim that block-capping removes the risk of a "string of bad hits", but there's a good chance that if you're taking a worse quality item to cap out, then the better item will have a bigger impact on the risk of taking a fatal string of unlucky hits than the last percent of block chance. In any boss fight where such minor gear choices matter, there'll be a dozen things that are more important to worry about than a 1% risk of taking a few thousand extra damage.
It's probably worth noting that it will slightly weaken SS too, although how relevant that is to most tanks will depend on their raid makeup and the specific encounter.
That's a good point I hadn't thought of.
I haven't really figured out a serious argument for a non-TbtL tanking build. Dropping TbtL lets you get to HotR with only 51 points in prot (without dropping any other "required" talents, but it's not clear that you gain anything significant by that. The talents that you'd be most likely to want those points for are Crusade and SotP, but it seems kind of silly to drop a 1-2% threat talent just to pick up another 1-2% threat talent. (Even without considering Mex's point about TbtL's mitigation effect via Sacred Shield.)
Originally Posted by Prinsesa
Speccing into Seal of Command as a tank would be akin to glyphing for HOTR. The extra AOE damage is great when you actually need to AOE stuff, but does jack on single-target fights, which means its usefulness will hinge upon how often you're actually tanking more than one target.
Well one difference is that you have 71 talent points but only 3 major glyph slots.
Also, I'm not sure that HotR + SoC is going to hit more than 3 targets anyway. It depends on how targets for cleave/chain type attacks are determined, but it's possible that both might always select the same targets, in which case your two extra SoC hits will hit targets that HotR is hitting anyway. (I seem to recall that Sweeping Strikes + Cleave would always hit the same pair of targets.)
My comrades are my weapons, and I am their shield.
I believe you're overestimating the magic of guaranteed EH. It's not as if the damage a player can take magically increases the moment you hit 100%. All that happens is that the last (small) risk of an unblocked hit disappears. That's nice, but an unblocked hit is not devastating in any form. If an unblocked hit is a major problem for you, you have bigger problems.
You could claim that block-capping removes the risk of a "string of bad hits", but there's a good chance that if you're taking a worse quality item to cap out, then the better item will have a bigger impact on the risk of taking a fatal string of unlucky hits than the last percent of block chance. In any boss fight where such minor gear choices matter, there'll be a dozen things that are more important to worry about than a 1% risk of taking a few thousand extra damage.
EH is not magic, EH is just one of the numbers.
All I'm trying to do is make sure that the distinction between stacking block gear and block capping is understood, because it is slightly counter-intuitive at times, and it's quite easy to confuse the two.
As it happens, it seems that you've done just this. The difference between a blocked hit and an unblocked hit is irrelevant in terms of block capping. Yes, it's relatively minor in terms of the scope of the hit, roughly 5-20% throughout Ulduar. However, that doesn't mean that it's minor in terms of its overall contribution. I don't want to try and justify the value of EH here, and I'm not putting it on some sort of magical pedestal as the be-all-and-end-all of tanking, however I will say that it is and always will be a highly relevant metric for tank survivability.
What block capping does is actually exactly what you've said it doesn't do, it magically increases the amount of damage you can take once you hit 100% (or, more accurately 102.4%). That's what effective health is, a measure of the amount of damage you can take (or perhaps survive would be a better word). Removing that "last (small) risk of an unblocked hit" means that your block value can suddenly be counted as additional health against physical damage (well, blockable physical damage, melee swings essentially). This is effectively a 1000-2000 health increase (~80-160 stamina), and not something to laugh off. If all it takes to block cap yourself is switching a single item, then you'd be almost insane not to do it against any boss whose physical burst damage is in any way dangerous.
It's not about guaranteeing that you never take a 21,800 hit and only ever take 20,400 hits max. It's about guaranteeing that you can take a hit when you're between 20,400 and 21,800 health without dying. That's the whole point of effective health and yes, it absolutely is a very rare occurance that you'll ever be in this position, but over an entire night of attempts against a challenging boss it's a fair bet to say that at least once you will be in that position and that's when the extra EH will save you. It's the same reason people stack stamina -- why bother gemming that extra 30 stam? If your health never drops below 400 over a boss fight then it's completely irrelevant. When you really look at the numbers, they're very small, but the point is that it is absolutely, 100%, completely dependable.
That's why going from 101.4->102.4% is such a big deal, because eliminating that last 1% means you can guarantee that your block value will always be factored in. All EH is guaranteed.
You're right in that EH is just another number, but it's still a very relevant number to any tank gearing decisions, one that must be considered for every fight. Sometimes it can be determined to be less useful, other times it may be of paramount importance, but understanding how and why it does what it does is crucial to being able to make those decisions.
A latent appliance fetishist is someone who refuses to admit to his or herself that sexual gratification can only be achieved through the use of machines.
- L. Ron Hoover
That's why going from 101.4->102.4% is such a big deal, because eliminating that last 1% means you can guarantee that your block value will always be factored in. All EH is guaranteed.
Guaranteeing a block really doesn't seem like such a huge deal. My experience is that tanks generally die much more to streaks of non-avoided hits than to a single nonblocked hit. The change from 101.4 to 102.4 still doesn't guarantee a block against very fast hitting bosses and it also does nothing if you have any avoidance (or blocking) procs or clickys active. Effective health isn't the only factor in survival and sometimes it's just better to minimize the chances of 8+ consecutive blows landing.
How big is the chance, that the block cap (mostly through block rating) or the equivalent amount of dodge, stamina, whatever, you would have had instead, will save you?
There is a chance, a block will save you. This chance doesn't rise considerably (i.e. not more than 1% ^^) from 101,4 to 102,4%.
If you gear yourself for the worst case scenario (no avoid, no block if you are below 102,4%, no clicky trinket available), the last % to block cap does a lot for you. But than it's also a matter of chance whether you survive because of those 80-120 stamina more or whether you die anyway.
Seems more like a matter of philosophy than anything scientificly provable (without simulating years of tankdamage and -healing with different boss, tank and healing setups :-x )
I tend to go for the best single pieces there are, knowing that block cap will someday happen to me (happens fast if you are fully buffed and the boss is debuffed with IS or Scorpid Sting) and maybe feeling a little safer when it does. :>
All I'm trying to do is make sure that the distinction between stacking block gear and block capping is understood, because it is slightly counter-intuitive at times, and it's quite easy to confuse the two.
As it happens, it seems that you've done just this. The difference between a blocked hit and an unblocked hit is irrelevant in terms of block capping. Yes, it's relatively minor in terms of the scope of the hit, roughly 5-20% throughout Ulduar. However, that doesn't mean that it's minor in terms of its overall contribution. I don't want to try and justify the value of EH here, and I'm not putting it on some sort of magical pedestal as the be-all-and-end-all of tanking, however I will say that it is and always will be a highly relevant metric for tank survivability.
What block capping does is actually exactly what you've said it doesn't do, it magically increases the amount of damage you can take once you hit 100% (or, more accurately 102.4%). That's what effective health is, a measure of the amount of damage you can take (or perhaps survive would be a better word). Removing that "last (small) risk of an unblocked hit" means that your block value can suddenly be counted as additional health against physical damage (well, blockable physical damage, melee swings essentially). This is effectively a 1000-2000 health increase (~80-160 stamina), and not something to laugh off. If all it takes to block cap yourself is switching a single item, then you'd be almost insane not to do it against any boss whose physical burst damage is in any way dangerous.
It's not about guaranteeing that you never take a 21,800 hit and only ever take 20,400 hits max. It's about guaranteeing that you can take a hit when you're between 20,400 and 21,800 health without dying. That's the whole point of effective health and yes, it absolutely is a very rare occurance that you'll ever be in this position, but over an entire night of attempts against a challenging boss it's a fair bet to say that at least once you will be in that position and that's when the extra EH will save you. It's the same reason people stack stamina -- why bother gemming that extra 30 stam? If your health never drops below 400 over a boss fight then it's completely irrelevant. When you really look at the numbers, they're very small, but the point is that it is absolutely, 100%, completely dependable.
That's why going from 101.4->102.4% is such a big deal, because eliminating that last 1% means you can guarantee that your block value will always be factored in. All EH is guaranteed.
You're right in that EH is just another number, but it's still a very relevant number to any tank gearing decisions, one that must be considered for every fight. Sometimes it can be determined to be less useful, other times it may be of paramount importance, but understanding how and why it does what it does is crucial to being able to make those decisions.
100%* Completely Dependable
* Except when: The boss attacks you with an attack that cannot be blocked, the boss attacks you with magical damage, the boss attacks you when your holy shield is down and redoubt isn't up, the boss attacks you when you have zero charges of holy shield remaining, etc...
Comparing Stamina to SBV when Block capped is a poor analogy. I think you're looking too much into the theory and not enough in practice. You can't have Holy Shield up all the time on all fights, there are many reasons for this of course from latency to having to change rotation slightly. When there were crushing blows, block cap was essential, but blizzard changed the game mechanic and being at 101.4 isn't as big a deal as you make it out to be. In fact, even if you are block capped, you probably don't block every attack in every fight. Sometimes you have to move, sometimes the mobs get behind you and you can't block. It is never as good as say Armor, which no matter what happens as long as it is a physical attack, it works.
* Except when: The boss attacks you with an attack that cannot be blocked, the boss attacks you with magical damage, the boss attacks you when your holy shield is down and redoubt isn't up, the boss attacks you when you have zero charges of holy shield remaining, etc...
Comparing Stamina to SBV when Block capped is a poor analogy. I think you're looking too much into the theory and not enough in practice. You can't have Holy Shield up all the time on all fights, there are many reasons for this of course from latency to having to change rotation slightly. When there were crushing blows, block cap was essential, but blizzard changed the game mechanic and being at 101.4 isn't as big a deal as you make it out to be. In fact, even if you are block capped, you probably don't block every attack in every fight. Sometimes you have to move, sometimes the mobs get behind you and you can't block. It is never as good as say Armor, which no matter what happens as long as it is a physical attack, it works.
Yes, of course SBV isn't reliable against magic damage or unblockable attacks, which is why it's qualified as physical EH, similar to armour. Criticising the dependability of holy shield isn't really valid as an argument though. There are situations where you can't guarantee it's uptime, but I'd expect posters here to be more than capable of identifying those situations as specific exceptions rather than common trends or problems to be overcome. The range of encounters where bosses are even theoretically capable (ie string of unavoided hits) of expending all HS charges is minimal.
A lot of people are perhaps misunderstanding what I'm saying here. I'm not in any way advocating trying to reach 102.4 or making it a priority when gearing. In the current meta game that's simply not an attractive or effective strategy.
However, the value of block capping is something which is very frequently misunderstood and confused with simply stacking block. I'm trying to highlight the difference here between using block as a means to shave a small amount of damage off some hits, and swapping in a single piece of block gear to suddenly gain a significant amount of physical EH. Please don't confuse "be aware that block capping is a means of increasing physical EH and in relevant situations can be extremely valuable" with "omg you must be block capped."
Originally Posted by Anaram
Guaranteeing a block really doesn't seem like such a huge deal. My experience is that tanks generally die much more to streaks of non-avoided hits than to a single nonblocked hit. The change from 101.4 to 102.4 still doesn't guarantee a block against very fast hitting bosses and it also does nothing if you have any avoidance (or blocking) procs or clickys active. Effective health isn't the only factor in survival and sometimes it's just better to minimize the chances of 8+ consecutive blows landing.
Funnily enough, the more hits it takes to kill you, the more valuable block capping is in terms of effective health. If you have 1500 SBV and it takes two hits to realistically burst you down, then those hits each have to hit 1500 harder before you die. This will be relevant in a lot of situations, and utterly useless in many others. That's part and parcel of being a tank; making these kinds of decisions and identifying what types of survivability stats you want to focus on for particular encounters.
All I'm trying to convey here is that block capping is not as utterly useless as block stacking, and if players are sitting at 101.4% and completely ignoring it as a concept, then they're throwing away what still constitutes a powerful tool in our arsenal.
A latent appliance fetishist is someone who refuses to admit to his or herself that sexual gratification can only be achieved through the use of machines.
- L. Ron Hoover
As a note to the block cap, using the new libram (for 25 emblems of triumph) is an easy way of getting to the cap without sacrificing valuable stats. From what I've tested it yields a solid 200 dodge rating and I have rarely, very rarely, seen it fall off. Coupled with the boost to the blade ward procs, my avoidance stats have gotten way higher, with blade ward even proccing often enough to stack nowadays.
All I'm trying to do is make sure that the distinction between stacking block gear and block capping is understood, because it is slightly counter-intuitive at times, and it's quite easy to confuse the two.
As it happens, it seems that you've done just this. The difference between a blocked hit and an unblocked hit is irrelevant in terms of block capping. Yes, it's relatively minor in terms of the scope of the hit, roughly 5-20% throughout Ulduar. However, that doesn't mean that it's minor in terms of its overall contribution. I don't want to try and justify the value of EH here, and I'm not putting it on some sort of magical pedestal as the be-all-and-end-all of tanking, however I will say that it is and always will be a highly relevant metric for tank survivability.
The actual effect on your life expectency from increasing your block chance the last percent from 99% chance 100% chance is only marginally higher than the chance from 98% to 99%, and that will hold true as long as block takes away only a small part of the damage taken.
It's not about guaranteeing that you never take a 21,800 hit and only ever take 20,400 hits max. It's about guaranteeing that you can take a hit when you're between 20,400 and 21,800 health without dying. That's the whole point of effective health and yes, it absolutely is a very rare occurance that you'll ever be in this position, but over an entire night of attempts against a challenging boss it's a fair bet to say that at least once you will be in that position and that's when the extra EH will save you.
I know what EH is, thank you. But I still believe you're overestimating the value of that situation. Assuming that all values of health are equally likely to appear in a fight, the likelyhood of you landing in that situation is equivalent to 1,400 health. The risk of your lack of block value killing you because you're 1% shy of the cap is 2% (since roughly half of the hits will be avoided in the first place). So basically, your block value will make the difference in 2% of the hits taken in a 1,400 health window. It's a fair bet that I'll land in that health bracket and take another hit several times over the course of a raid night. But my shiny block rating item is only going to matter 2% of the times.
Let's say that you were giving up 10 stamina to take that block rating item. With kings and talents, that's roughly 125 health. The window where those 125 health makes the difference between life and death is, naturally, 125 health. If I take a hit within that window, the chance that my stamina item choice is gonna make the difference is 100%
So if you make a choice between the last percent of the block cap or 10 extra stamina, you're making a choice that will save you either in 2% of the cases within a 1,400 health window, or in 100% of the cases within a 125 health window. I'd go for the latter choice any day.
Now. I know that there's advantages to block cap that'll improve the value of block rating if you're still below cap. So don't take this to mean that I regard block rating as a poor stat. Having an unblocked hit at a poor time does happen, and can make the difference. And since irregularity is the bane of tanks in the heat of battle, it'll probably have more of an effect than the above calculation shows, since the assumption that all values of health are equally likely to appear won't hold in practice. Also, more importantly, block value has the advantage of reducing the damage you take with the corresponding improvement to burst time. But I hope the above calculations show why I wouldn't assign a value to the last percent of block that even approaches the importance of roughly 3,000 effective health.
It's the same reason people stack stamina -- why bother gemming that extra 30 stam? If your health never drops below 400 over a boss fight then it's completely irrelevant. When you really look at the numbers, they're very small, but the point is that it is absolutely, 100%, completely dependable. That's why going from 101.4->102.4% is such a big deal, because eliminating that last 1% means you can guarantee that your block value will always be factored in. All EH is guaranteed.
30 stamina is way more valuable than 1% block. But that's beside the point. Block is not absolutely, 100%, completely dependable, ever. If it is, you're not tanking a boss where your gear matters. It's a stat that will change the course of the battle in a given situation, just like stamina or dodge. The probability and magnitude of the change varies with the stat, that's the challenge of choosing gear.
That it will "always be factored in" is something you only see on your tankpoints page. It will be factored in with regards to your damage intake in 2% of the hits you take, and it'll save your life when you take a hit within a 1,400 health window and the dice are spelling that last percent of doom. How much that is worth to you determines what item you should pick, not the number tankpoints gives you.
You're right in that EH is just another number, but it's still a very relevant number to any tank gearing decisions, one that must be considered for every fight. Sometimes it can be determined to be less useful, other times it may be of paramount importance, but understanding how and why it does what it does is crucial to being able to make those decisions.
I agree. But I believe that crediting the last percent of block with the full EH value of a blocked hit and making decisions accordingly constitutes a misunderstanding of how and why EH does what it does. The value of being block capped is, ultimately, a very significant increase in EH. But you cannot simply attribute that EH increase to the last point.
I agree. But I believe that crediting the last percent of block with the full EH value of a blocked hit and making decisions accordingly constitutes a misunderstanding of how and why EH does what it does. The value of being block capped is, ultimately, a very significant increase in EH. But you cannot simply attribute that EH increase to the last point.
Please try to understand that I'm not trying to assign any form of value to EH. I don't care whether it's god-of-all-stats or as useless as spell penetration; it's a relevant consideration in any boss fight, and block capping converts block value into effective health, I'm not really sure how to explain this with any more clarity. 88->89% and 101.4->102.4% give the exact same mitigation, but the latter also provides EH, the former does not. The exact value of that is up to each individual tank to decide, I'm simply trying to point it out.
Regarding the above point, it is somewhat misleading to attribute the full EH value to the last point, although technically it's correct. I've made analogies to stamina here when talking about block, but perhaps defense is more relevant. Every point of defense rating up to 688 is nothing more than avoidance, yet that last point, 689, guarantees the removal of crits, and therefore doubles effective health. The difference / dangers here are much more pronounced than with block capping, which is why getting to the defense "cap" is regarded as vital while the block cap is generally pooh-poohed. As I said though, I'm not trying to make a judgement call on EH here, all I'm trying to do is communicate the difference between block capping and block as a psuedo-avoidance stat. The point here is that the two mechanisms are the same -- each point below the cap adds a certain amount of survivability in the form of RNG avoidance of damage, and once the cap is hit, the value of that damage avoidance is converted into EH, whether it's reducing crits to hits or hits to blocks.
A point of block at 88.93% will have the same mitigation effect as a point at 102.39% (or whatever 102.4 minus 1 block rating is), however the latter point has a higher value because it changes the nature of your block value from a poor man's avoidance to EH. This is the key. Now whether you attribute that to the final point or to the entirity of the BV on the gear is a largely personal and ultimately irrelevant question, at the end of the day without that point your EH is lower than with it.
In the context of Frmorrison's question, being within block-cap range wearing (presumably) the best gear he has (as far as I know he plays mostly as a ret & holy, so I assumed his prot gear was fairly mix'n'match), then swapping in that neck for the extra BV, extra stam, and block capping at the expense of some dodge is something which should be considered for certain fights. An awareness of the concept of block capping is necessary in this regard.
I'd never advocate actively attempting to reach the block cap for anyone tanking beyond Naxx. However, if you are within very easy reach of it then simply ignoring it because of the low value of block as a pseudo-avoidance stat is generally bad practice.
A latent appliance fetishist is someone who refuses to admit to his or herself that sexual gratification can only be achieved through the use of machines.
- L. Ron Hoover
Is the last laugh or broken promise a better tank sword for a paladin? I have both and can't decide which I'd rather use. Would it be good to use both and have last laugh for single target and broken promise for aoe pulls since hammer of the righteous would hit harder? Or is last laugh just a better tanking weapon?
Hammer of the Righteous' damage is based on your weapon's DPS (not damage range) and thus Last Laugh, being 13 itemLevels higher, will give you higher Hammer numbers (basically, higher itemLevel = higher weapon DPS = bigger HotR). I'd additionally say that Last Laugh has superior stats, as even after the Seal of Vengeance change, expertise is still fairly meh.
Originally Posted by Heenk
"IRONBRANCH, THE FLOWER BED IS IN DANGER! ASSIST ME!"
Broken Promise actually does work out better, but not because of Hammer of the Righteous. The new Seal of Vengeance procs make it higher threat than anything except hard-mode 25-man Ulduar and Coliseum tanking weapons, the extra Seal of Vengeance proc damage Hammer of the Righteous get is pretty big.
That's rather suprising - I assumed that the larger SoV procs applied less frequently by a slower weapon would give equivalent TPS to smaller, more frequent SoV procs from a faster weapon.
Given those results, I guess it's worth enchanting Broken Promise with hit/crit or AP/ye olde BC Potency (if hit capped) and using it on fights where threat is a priority, and using Last Laugh with Mongoose/Blood Draining for your survivability weapon.
Originally Posted by Heenk
"IRONBRANCH, THE FLOWER BED IS IN DANGER! ASSIST ME!"
Broken Promise actually does work out better, but not because of Hammer of the Righteous. The new Seal of Vengeance procs make it higher threat than anything except hard-mode 25-man Ulduar and Coliseum tanking weapons, the extra Seal of Vengeance proc damage Hammer of the Righteous get is pretty big.
While that explanation is nice (it may be more useful in 3.2.2), as a Prot Pally I generate more tps than non-Pally tanks (when I was off-tanking ToC I had to stop attacking or pull aggro early).
If those are interesting, I decided to use The Warlord's Depravity because 1.4% chance of getting a full hit isn't that bad, compared to always blocking/shield slamming for 26 more and having more avoidance.
Millions of words are written annually purporting to tell how to beat the races, whereas the best possible advice on the subject is found in the three monosyllables: 'Do not try.'
That's rather suprising - I assumed that the larger SoV procs applied less frequently by a slower weapon would give equivalent TPS to smaller, more frequent SoV procs from a faster weapon.
The charts and graphs are a little unnecessary, but you're right. Weapon speed and damage don't really matter with SoV, as the threat generated from the ability relies on your swing timer itself -- thus any two weapons with equal DPS should deal about the same amount of threat. Maintankadin is showing such a vast difference in threat gen with DPS weapons because the weapons in question may have the same DPS as a tanking weapon, but have haste. Haste will increase the rate at which you swing while maintaining weapon damage, giving the weapon itself a higher DPS than listed.
Maintankadin is also focusing solely on the weapon slot with a disregard for a tank's other possible gear. The reason that Broken Promise gets placed above weapons such as Titanguard is because Broken Promise has both Hit and Expertise on it, meaning it will theoretically miss less than other weapons and therefore generate more threat.
What "Best in Slot" graphs like this often don't account for is that you could very well be picking up your Hit and Expertise from other items, making several other weapons much more viable than sticking with Broken Promise.
It's important when itemizing your gear that you look at the whole picture, not just one item by itself.
The charts and graphs are a little unnecessary, but you're right. Weapon speed and damage don't really matter with SoV, as the threat generated from the ability relies on your swing timer itself -- thus any two weapons with equal DPS should deal about the same amount of threat.
This is correct regarding autoattack. The extra factor you're not considering here is HotR. While HotR itself does damage solely tied to weapon dps, it also triggers an SoV proc, which still does damage proportional to swing time. Since you get one of these every 6 seconds regardless of weapon speed, the damage from HotR+SoV is maximized with a slow weapon. That said, I'm surprised the effect is as large as Theck is showing it to be.
Also, a slower weapon exposes you to fewer potential parries (and thus parry-hastes) from bosses. Going from a 1.5-speed to a 2-5-speed weapon cuts boss-parry opportunities by 40%. Getting the same effect by stacking expertise would take you perhaps 70-80 expertise rating (depending on how much you already have).
Different people have different opinions about expertise and whether minimizing boss-parries is important or not, and I won't go into that argument here. But, if you do think this is important, you should be aware that switching from a fast weapon to a slow weapon is worth a lot of expertise from that point of view.
My comrades are my weapons, and I am their shield.
Now. I know that there's advantages to block cap that'll improve the value of block rating if you're still below cap. So don't take this to mean that I regard block rating as a poor stat. Having an unblocked hit at a poor time does happen, and can make the difference.
At most raid levels of gear (even Naxx) it is quite possible to reach block cap without using block rating pieces. I would go so far as to say it's advisable in a general gear set; just as a quick summary, avoidance decreases the chances of a burst death situation, while EH increases your chance of living through that burst situation, so unless you're doing some very specific gearing you want a good mix of both. I personally find block cap to be a handy measure of how much avoidance to acquire before focusing entirely on EH for progression.
I guess you guys are calling 102.4% avoidance the "block cap"? I just like generalizing it all as the "avoidance cap" for simplicity -- perhaps I'm wrong in doing so.
To tie the discussion into 3.2 a little bit, I'm personally one of those crazies that likes to reach 102.4%. My philosophy as far as avoidance stats go has always been to reach 102.4% while minimizing my block rating and maximizing my dodge and parry, while still maintaining other valuable stats such as Hit.
One of the exciting things about 3.2, that perhaps a few people haven't noticed, is that there is a complete lack of Block Rating on any of the new gear. In my opinion, this makes things very fun for Paladin tanks because there are still very nice Block Value items that are paired with great avoidance stats instead of being weighed down with Block Rating.
Now, I agree with Mex that once you reach this 102.4% "block cap" that you can actually consider block stats an Effective Health stat as opposed to an Avoidance stat -- granted we are able to maintain our rotation, and I will assume this to be true (after all, if the raid boss can silence or fuck with your mana pool like Vezax... perhaps it's just better to let another class of tank have the fight).
With the absurd increase in Defense Rating on the new tanking gear, as well as general stat gains, I believe it is possible for Paladin tanks to reach the 102.4% "avoidance cap" with 3.2 gear alone (specifically the Block Value gear). If this is indeed accomplished, granted the recent changes to Ardent Defender as well, we will have the absolute best of both worlds as far as Avoidance and Effective Health go.
At most raid levels of gear (even Naxx) it is quite possible to reach block cap without using block rating pieces. I would go so far as to say it's advisable in a general gear set; just as a quick summary, avoidance decreases the chances of a burst death situation, while EH increases your chance of living through that burst situation, so unless you're doing some very specific gearing you want a good mix of both. I personally find block cap to be a handy measure of how much avoidance to acquire before focusing entirely on EH for progression.
Raid buffs also give you a surprising amount of avoidance. Scorpid Sting or Insect Swarm give an extra 3% miss (not subject to diminishing returns since it's a flat percentage bonus). Shaman/DK buffs, MotW, and BoK will increase your agility by roughly 230, which after diminishing returns is worth 2-3% dodge. So you can count on getting at least 5% full avoidance just from raid buffs.
My comrades are my weapons, and I am their shield.
Raid buffs also give you a surprising amount of avoidance. Scorpid Sting or Insect Swarm give an extra 3% miss (not subject to diminishing returns since it's a flat percentage bonus). Shaman/DK buffs, MotW, and BoK will increase your agility by roughly 230, which after diminishing returns is worth 2-3% dodge. So you can count on getting at least 5% full avoidance just from raid buffs.
Hunters should be using Serpent Sting, and the best Moonkins glyph IS to remove 3% less hit.
I guess you can add 3% to the block cap number to account for raid buffs to agility.
Millions of words are written annually purporting to tell how to beat the races, whereas the best possible advice on the subject is found in the three monosyllables: 'Do not try.'
08/19/09, 12:47 AM
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