Just to clarify, the mitigation portion of AD doesn't shut off when the emergency heal procs on Live does it? I know that had been the case during initial testing on the PTR, but I was under the impression that was fixed before going live.
The Live version of Ardent Defender is equal to a 15% increase in EH. The PTR version of Ardent Defender is equal to an 8.75% increase in EH.
Ardent Defender *was* a 43% increase in EH back when it would reduce the entirety of any hit that would take the Paladin below the threshold, but is currently a 15% increase in EH now that it only reduces the portion of the hit that would fall under the threshold.
I think he's using 145% to describe the 30% health you receive when the guardian spirit part procs (even though you don't necessarily get the full 30%) in addition to the 15% from the damage reduction. I'm not sure it's correct to describe it quite like that, but I imagine that's what he's getting at.
I think he's using 145% to describe the 30% health you receive when the guardian spirit part procs (even though you don't necessarily get the full 30%) in addition to the 15% from the damage reduction. I'm not sure it's correct to describe it quite like that, but I imagine that's what he's getting at.
That is exactly what I am saying. The 30% is when you have the ability available to proc. The flat 15% more EH 100% up time is from the 30% reduced damage when under 35% hp, and then another 30% (with the exception of being under defense cap through defense, but using the resilience from the pvp enchant to remain on the uncrit cap) from the guardian spirit like proc.
It's a really easy way to think of it, just having 145% EH when the spell is available
Originally Posted by Prinsesa
The Live version of Ardent Defender is equal to a 15% increase in EH. The PTR version of Ardent Defender is equal to an 8.75% increase in EH.
Thank you for this calculation. I knew it'd be around the 10% mark, just didn't have a way to work out exact values.
So (0.35 / (1 - 0.2) + 0.65) - 1 = 0.0875, or 8.75% increase in EH.
If anything, the nerf seems quite tentative still, and I suspect that we'll see further tinkering down the line.
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That is exactly what I am saying. The 30% is when you have the ability available to proc. The flat 15% more EH 100% up time is from the 30% reduced damage when under 35% hp, and then another 30% (with the exception of being under defense cap through defense, but using the resilience from the pvp enchant to remain on the uncrit cap) from the guardian spirit like proc.
It's a really easy way to think of it, just having 145% EH when the spell is available
That's not true, since when the cheat-death part procs, the overkill is absorbed. It's more than 145%, but the actual value depends on how hard the boss hits.
So, I've spent the last couple days putting together my BiS list for Coliseum, and as it turns out, [The Black Heart] is my dark horse choice for 2nd BiS trinket.
If -- and this is a big if -- you figure the Black Heart's proc as a static amount of armor, you get approximately 1411 armor (7056 * 10/50). A trinket with 126 stamina and 1411 armor has more EHP than even the heroic [Satrina's Impeding Scarab] -- while also providing a sizeable amount of mitigation.
Granted, this is not a static 1411 armor. But even if you don't look at it as that, look at the value of the proc itself. With my BiS set of armor this proc takes me from 67.51% reduction to 71.86% reduction -- I go from taking 32490 damage from a 100k hit to 28140 damage, a 13.4% reduction in damage. Apply my 2300 B.V. and it's 30190 damage vs. 25840 damage -- a 14.4% reduction.
I don't know about you, but a 14.4% reduction in physical damage for 10s out of every 50s is a pretty big deal for a single trinket. It's large enough for me to not only wear the trinket, but I set up a proc watch for it so I know not to pop any unnecessary CDs while it's active.
This is also the perfect instance for armor stacking. There is almost no magic damage to contend with. On Beasts there's the wurm's breath, which isn't terribly threatening, on Jaraxxus there's the fireball which should be interrupted, Twin Valks hit like jokes, and Anub is pure physical damage outside of his dot -- and the dot encourages you to have lower health anyways. From the perspective of tank gearing the hardest fights in the instance are Beasts and Anub and armor applies to every relevant part of those fights, so stack up I say!
(On a sidenote, my pick for BiS trinket is [Glyph of Indomitability], for having 2/3rds as much EHP as heroic Satrina's and the largest amount of mitigation of any trinket in the game if you figure the on-use effect as average uptime -- and even if you ignore the effect, it's got more passive mitigation than the [Furnace Stone] does and a better clicky to boot.)
So... what is the libram that would be recommended as best, or overall best?
I've seen paladins with either the dodge or strength librams. Dodge for obvious mitigation, and the strength for block value and threat. I see both of these as being rather viable for the TotC content.
A friend of mine tossed me the idea of getting both and switching them out based on the situation of the boss fight; Strength for more magic based damage so I can push out more threat and DPS, and for harder hitting bosses going with the dodge libram.
Thoughts, comments? Perhaps I missed a post already talking about this, if so could someone direct me there?
Much appreciated.
Also... on a side note- Paladin gearing seems to have changed quite a bit, with paladin tanks moving away from Block rating and value and focusing more on dodge, parry, expertise; much like that of warriors.
So... what is the libram that would be recommended as best, or overall best?
I've seen paladins with either the dodge or strength librams. Dodge for obvious mitigation, and the strength for block value and threat. I see both of these as being rather viable for the TotC content.
Also... on a side note- Paladin gearing seems to have changed quite a bit, with paladin tanks moving away from Block rating and value and focusing more on dodge, parry, expertise; much like that of warriors.
Any thoughts about that?
Maybe some paladins need the threat boost or log out in their heroic gear set? Avoidance is a good thing to have, and with the exception of the Northrend Beast that spits at you, all bosses do a lot of melee damage.
I recall there being less than a handful of block rating items in ToC, so you want to use the best items that exist, so that has more to do with it than block rating being a undesirable stat (which it is after 102.4% buffed avoidance).
Millions of words are written annually purporting to tell how to beat the races, whereas the best possible advice on the subject is found in the three monosyllables: 'Do not try.'
I personally go with the dodge libram full out. If I start having threat problems, I'll swap in more hit gear before I pick up the strength libram.
As for the itemization change, block rating hasn't been useful to us this whole expansion, and block value is only now becoming useful after being a complete dud in 3.0 and 3.1. Personally, though, I'm going whole-hog on armor and avoidance, almost skimping on stamina just to get more mitigation. After tanking heroic Anub 10-man without fort and not getting a single AD proc I feel pretty confident I've got enough health, so more mitigation is the way to go.
I'm actually dropping some Avo in favor of SBV and HPs. Seeing I had some problems with our best Warrior tank sometimes in terms of aggro, I moved a bit forward SBV (Libram of Obstruction) and now I sometimes loose 0.05% Avo in favor of 300HPs and such.
I've seen quite a few people using [Glyph of Hammer of the Righteous] lately, even for raiding purposes. Am I missing something here? This really seems like a rather poor choice compared to the sov/plea/judgement/taunt glyphs unless you're using it for heroics.
My alt is using it for Anub 25 hardmode to hit all 4 adds (hope this doesn't violate the "don't talk about anub tactics" rule), but I have never used it before. It probably has its uses for Alone in the Dark. And I guess there's no harm in it if you are farming Ulduar.
I've seen quite a few people using [Glyph of Hammer of the Righteous] lately, even for raiding purposes. Am I missing something here? This really seems like a rather poor choice compared to the sov/plea/judgement/taunt glyphs unless you're using it for heroics.
I saw same the same thing with tanking specs a year ago, loads of paladins using the same one, which was a pretty bad one. A majority of failure still is failure. The only reason I could imagine paladins use that glyph for is easier and faster trash killing, but because in ToC I never have more than three targets that needs tanking, it renders it pointless.
So... what is the libram that would be recommended as best, or overall best?
I've seen paladins with either the dodge or strength librams. Dodge for obvious mitigation, and the strength for block value and threat. I see both of these as being rather viable for the TotC content.
A friend of mine tossed me the idea of getting both and switching them out based on the situation of the boss fight; Strength for more magic based damage so I can push out more threat and DPS, and for harder hitting bosses going with the dodge libram.
Thoughts, comments? Perhaps I missed a post already talking about this, if so could someone direct me there?
Much appreciated.
Also... on a side note- Paladin gearing seems to have changed quite a bit, with paladin tanks moving away from Block rating and value and focusing more on dodge, parry, expertise; much like that of warriors.
Any thoughts about that?
It's all going to depend on the fight. Right now, pre 3.2.2, Libram of Obstruction is good for fights where you want more BV (like running heroics, tanking Anub's adds, and other fights were melee damage is low and through BV the damage can be outright avoided in this way, ie a block absorbs 100% of the damage). In fights where avoidance is key, then the Libram of Defiance becomes the better choice. After 3.2.2, the Libram of Valiance will be nice for the threat and BV it gives, approximately 160 (although it looks like the changes aren't going to nerf Prot Pally threat a lot).
I've seen quite a few people using [Glyph of Hammer of the Righteous] lately, even for raiding purposes. Am I missing something here? This really seems like a rather poor choice compared to the sov/plea/judgement/taunt glyphs unless you're using it for heroics.
I have considered using this glyph as well for certain hard modes. The dodge soft and parry hard caps are substantially lower for level 82 adds so SoV glyph provides little to no benefit. For those encounters where there are more than three targets you will see a moderate AOE threat increase. An example from the previous tier of content would be Yogg 0.
I've seen quite a few people using [Glyph of Hammer of the Righteous] lately, even for raiding purposes. Am I missing something here? This really seems like a rather poor choice compared to the sov/plea/judgement/taunt glyphs unless you're using it for heroics.
I would consider Judgement and Taunt poor glyph choices, since Judgement is such a small tps increase and we have two taunts if one misses. I use Salvation as the third glyph.
Millions of words are written annually purporting to tell how to beat the races, whereas the best possible advice on the subject is found in the three monosyllables: 'Do not try.'
I would consider Judgement and Taunt poor glyph choices, since Judgement is such a small tps increase and we have two taunts if one misses. I use Salvation as the third glyph.
I was actually going to replace the taunt glyph with SoV, but then I started getting TotC gear. The amount of expertise on the TotC gear vs the fact that there is almost no hit (at least, on the several pieces I have gotten) has flip-flopped my non glyphed expertise to 42 and my hit to 24. With such low hit, I have been very reluctant to lose the taunt glyph at this point. I could keep using older hit gear, but the loss in stamina, avoidance and armor in my opinion more than offsets any gain from switching glyphs.
Salvation is definitely a good mitigation glyph, but almost worthless for anything but raid bosses and only if you can afford the threat loss, while HoTR is useful anywhere there are at least 4 targets, and the taunt glyph depends on your hit. Since glyphs are so situational, as usual the only way to always be using the best is to switch glyphs for each fight, but that's not something most people will do.
I would consider Judgement and Taunt poor glyph choices, since Judgement is such a small tps increase and we have two taunts if one misses. I use Salvation as the third glyph.
I wouldn't necessarily call righteous defense a second taunt, there are a number of encounters where taunting anything other than a single and intended target could result in a wipe.
For example if say we are tanking adds on Anub'arak and our taunt misses and they go to the tank on Anub'arak, we shouldn't be taunting Anub'arak along with the adds and that add on the Anub'arak tank could cause excessive damage which the glyph could have prevented.
The taunt glyph is probably the one glyph I swap in and out the most; I've even had to use it as holy to taunt Tenebron on a speed kill, or as ret to bubble wall bomb bots.
I wouldn't necessarily call righteous defense a second taunt, there are a number of encounters where taunting anything other than a single and intended target could result in a wipe.
I couldn't agree with you more. Additionally Ive found Glyph of Hammer of the Righteous really useful for ULD 25 and realistically how often does anyone use Righteous Defense over Hand of Reckoning (find myself just waiting for cool down)? Ive considered switching to salvation for that extra cool down but with a lack of hit (unavoidable amounts of expertise on TOC gear) I cant afford to compete with warlocks and hunters for threat.
I guess it's mostly habit from having tanked for the whole of TBC when hand of reckoning didn't exist, but I use righteous defense an awful lot. It's hugely powerful for picking up stray adds when you combine it with a unit frame such as Grid, even if your screen is full of boss crotch you can still look for the aggro indicator on Grid and taunt those adds before they gib your healer.
Plus if you use righteous defense more aggressively than hand of reckoning, then HoR remains there for those difficult situations that Bygbyron3 exampled above. e.g. Using RD on the two (or four) adds on Anub'arak as they spawn as they generally aggro onto a healer, you still have HoR if an add shifts onto the MT (prayer of mending aggro or similar).
That said, I still keep a stack of taunt glyphs just in case.
I guess it's mostly habit from having tanked for the whole of TBC when hand of reckoning didn't exist, but I use righteous defense an awful lot. It's hugely powerful for picking up stray adds when you combine it with a unit frame such as Grid, even if your screen is full of boss crotch you can still look for the aggro indicator on Grid and taunt those adds before they gib your healer.
You could have made a macro that made RD work pretty much like Taunt (except it sometimes pulls extra adds) in TBC.
Anyway, how I use taunt is a macro that cast HoR if I target a bad guy. If I mouseover or target a friendly, it will use RD. I always have Grid, so if I see an aggro indicator on a non-tank I mouseover the frame and hit the macro, which casts RD. If HoR misses, then I would mouseover the other tank and hit the macro.
Millions of words are written annually purporting to tell how to beat the races, whereas the best possible advice on the subject is found in the three monosyllables: 'Do not try.'
Oh I used the macro in TBC (apart from that one fleeting week in Tier 6 when they tried to implement what it does now but it broke), just making a point about the versatility of RD.
/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
/run SetCVar("Sound_enableSFX", "0")
/cast [modifier:shift] Hand of Reckoning ; Righteous Defense
/run SetCVar("Sound_enableSFX", "1")
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear(); UIErrorsFrame: Show()
The above is my current RD/HoR macro bound to Q, shift-Q for single target, Q for RD. If my current target doesn't resolve a valid auto-cast for RD (e.g. hostile creature that isn't targeting anyone at that moment) then it pushes RD onto the mouse pointer so I can click on someone on Grid if necessary. I suppose this is all subjective and down to personal play style ultimately though.
The point with sticking with the taunt glyph is to try to keep both RD and HoR as dependable pickups. Yes, there are fights where we need the taunt as part of a tanking rotation (debuffs etc.) but the rest of the time HoR is our best replacement for exorcism. I just don't like the implications of trying to snag something at max range with HoR or RD and having it miss, then having to chase the mob because they've run out of range. AS is an ok ranged pickup, but the daze can actually be troublesome as ranged DPS and healing agro build on the mob while it waddles towards you without agro being built by you.
It's also worth keeping in mind that if you have to burn RD after HoR misses or vice versa, they're now both on cooldown and can't be used for any other target that might have come up. Especially in multi-target tanking situations where you need to pick up targets from different and even random directions, I think the importance of the taunt glyph is underplayed. This becomes more and more true as our gear drops Hit.
Last edited by Haelfdane : 09/19/09 at 11:29 PM.
Reason: Clarity
With today's changes to Paladins, specifically RF, BoS and TbtL:
- Righteous Fury: The bonus threat from Holy spells caused by this talent has been reduced from 90% to 80%.
- Blessing of Sanctuary: This blessing now grants 10% strength in addition to its current effects. Also, the strength and stamina bonuses from this blessing will no longer be lost when Blessing of Kings is removed.
- Touched by the Light: This talent now provides 20/40/60% of the paladin’s strength as spell power instead of 10/20/30% of the paladin’s stamina.
Does the math work out to roughly the same TPS? With 10% more STR and 30% more SP, does it roughly negate the 10% less threat from RF?
09/13/09, 9:30 AM
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