10% miss rate is an exceedingly high miss rate since it has a base miss rate of 8% with no hit rating and no draenei. I would think a 3-5% miss chance would be more reasonable to use.
It's a very reasonable miss rate considering it can be parried (Well, deflected). 10% parry is approximately what's left after you're expertise soft capped.
buff /bʌf/ Pronunciation[buhf]
–verb (used with object)
- to reduce or deaden the force of
I doubt that AD's DR wouldn't stack with other Damage reductions. AD's CD effect does stack with GS but in an inconvient order. The AD effect is used first and the GS effect is not consumed on that killing blow and can still proc on following blows. This is not the ideal ordering but it will hopefully be changed, especially considering the AD CD is weaker.
The only instance of non stacking DR is HoSac and DivSac and multiple copies there of.
That is exactly my point though. AD appears to be special; the fact that it is consumed before GS hints at this. If all damage reduction buffs would stack with AD, then it would be ridiculously powerful. With the current AD, the longer you can make it not proc, the better - which is why I assume Blizzard might have pulled off this tricky solution for it: Don't let it stack with PS, Divine Sac, etc. Granted, it's still really powerful even if stuff doesn't stack but atleast then it would make more sense to me, since I cannot believe they pulled off another WotN fiasco by choice.
Make sense?
EDIT:
Originally Posted by Chicken
That's not quite 100%, though it's certainly a very high uptime. Assuming a 10% rate of failing to hit with Hammer of the Righteous, that's 45% chance on each individual cast, which nets us a 84% chance that one of three Hammers of the Righteous you cast within it's uptime will proc the Libram again. Being hit and expertise capped improves this to a maximum of 87.5% chance to refresh.
For comparison with the Warrior ranged slot (copied and pasted from another thread):
Veranus Bane after scaling it up by 13% (that was the number used to upscale tank stats back in the day for each tier IIRC) it gives us:
The Stamina is more than enough made up by the better scaling of the other tanks, which leaves us with 128 rating points for the gun slot.
The Relic would have 200 rating points with an 100% uptime, making it 56% better.
If you were the equalize the ratings, then the Relic would need an uptime of only 64%. Anything lower and the gun is better, anything higher and the relic is better.
So at 84% refresh chance it's quite a bit better than our gun. /jealous
Simply ignoring the, arguably, most valuable aspect of the gun (the stamina) on grounds of differing class abilities is hardly fair pool. Its like saying Paladins deserve to have librams superior to warrior tanking guns because we don't have Last Stand and Warriors do (ignoring for the moment AD, because none of us really have any idea what it will look like when 3.2 goes live. During early PTR builds, spotting and posting on class balance issues is commendable, but getting upset over them is silly. The only certainty is that there will be a lot of change).
That having been said, including the stam you'd be at 150 stat points (~49 for the stam) for the gun, so an ~80% uptime on the libram seems equitable in overall value, though I assume the libram would actually have a much higher budget since its all concentrated in one stat. That having been said, does anyone know how a proc mechanic like this affects item budgeting?
Personally, I'd rather have the stamina than the dodge, but more than anything I'm delighted at the prospect of having to make actual decisions on when to use which libram.
Why should I include the Stamina when the Stamina difference and the lower Paladin base health is more than made up with the Paladin's Stamina scaling talents? It's not like I decided to randomly omit Stamina for no apparent reason.
And yeah, we all would prefer Stamina on our guns and librams but that's beside the point (just like Strength isn't all that hot for Warriors either - it's a comparison). The libram > gun so far in simple item budget terms. (Also, the gun is spreading it's stats over multiple so you'd expect more not less budget on the gun.)
So, to be clear, you're unhappy that a theoretical, not actually existing gun appears to have a lower budget than a libram introduced in the first build of a PTR based on not yet fully tested assumptions about the libram's mechanics? It feels like jousting at windmills a bit.
As I noted, pointing out class imbalances ("Hey, is that libram over budget?") is useful, but railing about, say, how the t9 pally tanking helm has identical stats to the warrior t9 tanking helm except that the warrior version has more block is silly, because they're obviously placeholders.
On another topic, while I'm happy about all of the interesting things being done to AD, I'm a little surprised Blizz didn't address the lack of pally cooldowns via LoH. If they'd swap Healing Light and Impr LoH in the Holy Tree and then introduce a glyph shortening the cooldown of LoH to 2 minutes (talented) while making it self-cast only they'd have solved the problem. AD would still be awkward, but no more so than its been for the last few years.
Why should I include the Stamina when the Stamina difference and the lower Paladin base health is more than made up with the Paladin's Stamina scaling talents? It's not like I decided to randomly omit Stamina for no apparent reason.
This is a horrible argument, and a really, really, really bad way to look at balance. Does that mean we could say that Paladins should get double block value on all gear (at no extra cost) because we don't have critical block? Does it mean that resto druids should get free crit on their gear because shamans have more talented crit than them?
You can't look at those things in a vacuum and you certainly can't assume that stats on certain items are deliberately intended to cover scaling / talented differences and should therefore not cost item budget.
A latent appliance fetishist is someone who refuses to admit to his or herself that sexual gratification can only be achieved through the use of machines.
- L. Ron Hoover
This is a horrible argument, and a really, really, really bad way to look at balance. Does that mean we could say that Paladins should get double block value on all gear (at no extra cost) because we don't have critical block? Does it mean that resto druids should get free crit on their gear because shamans have more talented crit than them?
You can't look at those things in a vacuum and you certainly can't assume that stats on certain items are deliberately intended to cover scaling / talented differences and should therefore not cost item budget.
I don't understand. It's been proven a few times now that the Paladin stamina scaling makes up for the lower base health and the health from the gun slot so why should I include them again in the comparison? The gun slot and the lower base health are the only two things that are different between Warriors and Paladins in terms of final raid buffed health since we share gear for the other slots. And don't tank that as whining or anything but considerring the two classes are as close as any of the 4 tanks get in terms of mechanics and overall stats, I think it's fine to compare them.
Or to phrase it in other words: If all the other gear was exactly the same and talents covered the stamina gap, how exactly would you go on to compare the libram with a gun if not like this?
EDIT:
Originally Posted by Wrathblood
On another topic, while I'm happy about all of the interesting things being done to AD, I'm a little surprised Blizz didn't address the lack of pally cooldowns via LoH. If they'd swap Healing Light and Impr LoH in the Holy Tree and then introduce a glyph shortening the cooldown of LoH to 2 minutes (talented) while making it self-cast only they'd have solved the problem. AD would still be awkward, but no more so than its been for the last few years.
In a way, the AD change made LoH a better cooldown. LoH had 2 probems: 1) Too long CD and 2) it's on the GCD and sometimes you can't react fast enough to use it. The GS portion of AD atleast helps with number 2.
I don't understand. It's been proven a few times now that the Paladin stamina scaling makes up for the lower base health and the health from the gun slot so why should I include them again in the comparison? The gun slot and the lower base health are the only two things that are different between Warriors and Paladins in terms of final raid buffed health since we share gear for the other slots. And don't tank that as whining or anything but considerring the two classes are as close as any of the 4 tanks get in terms of mechanics and overall stats, I think it's fine to compare them.
You're assuming equality in places where it doesn't have to exist. Both classes need to be equally strong as tanks, and the classes share gear in all but one slot. That still leaves a tremendous amount of room for them to be unequal in narrowly-defined comparisons without threatening balance as a whole. An imbalance in the power of librams versus ranged weapons can simply be one of the many imbalances that need to sum to zero (or close to zero) in order for the classes to be balanced overall.
Librams being more powerful than ranged weapons is nothing new. Look at [Libram of Obstruction], for example: 352 blockvalue is worth 229 itemization points; even if the libram only has a 50% uptime it's still worth 114 itemization points on average. That's about twice the budget of an ilevel 200 ranged weapon.
My comrades are my weapons, and I am their shield.
Librams being more powerful than ranged weapons is nothing new. Look at [Libram of Obstruction], for example: 352 blockvalue is worth 229 itemization points; even if the libram only has a 50% uptime it's still worth 114 itemization points on average. That's about twice the budget of an ilevel 200 ranged weapon.
More correctly, doesn't the DPS on the gun itself eat itemization points, or had you already included that? Whether or not those itemization points are useful points is another matter (!) .
With a 2 minute CD on an ability with no icon, I can see this as sometimes causing confusion, or just simply becoming the victim of another "RNG" mishap. Mainly I talk about those situations with a boss wailing on you and heals being spammed that maybe, instead of hitting your binding for DP (that your finger has been on top of a majority of the fight) you hope for your AD to kick in. Now that's all well and good when it works the first time. But I'd like to be able to see a "ARDENT DEFENDER" buff appear much like Cheat Death (and I hope it does). Though still, now without a timer to see (I imagine a mod will have to be created or something) I think it's problematic to know when maybe it will be up again unless you or someone else is keeping a timer.
I was on the PTR last night. When you die and AD is used, a small icon appears in the same part of your UI(normal) that the forebearance debuff shows up. It has a little timer on it as well that counts down once it gets below 1min.
More correctly, doesn't the DPS on the gun itself eat itemization points, or had you already included that? Whether or not those itemization points are useful points is another matter (!) .
Sort of. All ranged/melee weapons have a base dps with that ilevel. Only caster weapons have less dps for more stats (since casters do not melee, except Holy Pally for mana).
You basically can ignore the dps of a weapon, so the libram is better than a ilevel 200 item (but maybe not 226).
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EDIT: If you have both Ardent Defender and Guardian Angel when the killing-blow-to-be is landed, Ardent Defender is triggered first, and Guardian Angel will simply expire unless you suffer another killing-blow-to-be.
Just wondering if this has been proven by more people and if it is true if we could ask a blue if this could maybe be changed if at all possible. It is really a small nitpick with a extremely powerful talent however one would hope that the Guardian Angel is used first to preserve the 30% damage reduction of Ardent Defender as people have reported that we lose this benefit for the 2 min CD.
You're assuming equality in places where it doesn't have to exist. Both classes need to be equally strong as tanks, and the classes share gear in all but one slot. That still leaves a tremendous amount of room for them to be unequal in narrowly-defined comparisons without threatening balance as a whole. An imbalance in the power of librams versus ranged weapons can simply be one of the many imbalances that need to sum to zero (or close to zero) in order for the classes to be balanced overall.
I know where you are getting at, I just don't see it. Warriors and Paladins can wear the same gear except for 1 slot (libram vs gun). In my normal set I have exactly one item that a Paladin does not have access to at the: my shoulders, because they are Warrior T8. Everything else is offset items. And even for the shoulder slot there is a really similar or even better option for Paladins with the heroic XT ones. Point being, plate items do not have a big variance in most stats from one piece to another, only the libram and ranged weapons are an exception. For example, all epic level 226 helms should have the same armor and stamina; only the secondary stats like Str, Def, Dodge etc but in the end they have the same itembudget.
So yes, while you are correct with the fact that only the end result should matter in the comparison and that it is theoretically possible that even if the libram is better than the gun (or what have you) that there can be a balance between the two tanks, I do not see it in reality. Like I said, the gear is too similar. The mechanics are similar, the only real difference is how both tanks block and their CDs. I'll go ahead and say that either the Paladin versions of block and CDs are better in 3.2 or, for debate's sake, let's consider them atleast equal.
What's left is just that: a libram with a higher item budget than the projected ilvl 245 gun (basically the ilvl 232 gun with a 13% increase in stats).
Anyway, I hope I am not boring/annoying you guys but I figured this is an interesting "thought experiment", especially since the classes are so close to each other.
And for a different subject:
Ardent Defender. I think we all agree that in it's current iteration it's too good. The most common suggestion is adding an ICD to the reduction portion of the talent. The counterargument to that usually is that it makes AD useless compared to Last Stand because LS is active for more hits (but while having less of an impact than the AD reduction obviously). Now my suggestion was to add an ICD with a twist: Whenever the reduction portion of AD procs the Paladin gains a debuff that lasts for 15 secs. In itself, the one debuff does nothing but if it stacks to say 2 or 3 debuffs (numbers debatable) it triggers the actual "Ardent Defender" debuff (the one that prevents the killing blow and heals you) for 2 minutes.
I did some testing with the new Libram of Defiance on the PTRs now, mostly to try and figure out how it works exactly. I choose the unusual testing grounds of Halls of Lightning for this, to try and see if it had higher uptime when hitting more than a single mob. I was actually hoping to see multiple refresh events for a single Hammer of the Righteous cast, but alas that doesn't seem to happen.
Unfortunately the mobs in there don't last enough for the results to be entirely conclusive, though some combat log analysis does show I had far more frequent refreshes when attacking multiple mobs. As an example, on the first boss in Halls of Lightning, General Bjarngrim, my refresh frequency on the Libram's buff dropped down as his adds died. Even with a single mob alive, it's a reliable effect however, it's just more reliable with multiple mobs.
I've attached the full combat log for analysis, I also had Vindication specced for the run in case anyone's interested in that. It's a very reliable debuff on a single target when using the 969 rotation with Seal of Vengeance, it's a bit less reliable for multiple targets because only Hammer of the Righteous can proc it then.
Last edited by Chicken : 06/27/09 at 12:14 PM.
buff /bʌf/ Pronunciation[buhf]
–verb (used with object)
- to reduce or deaden the force of
I wouldn't say I'm annoyed, but I do feel your arguments are somewhat pointless. Blizz has stated endlessly that when balancing classes, one cannot look at single abilities or stats because they attempt to balance the entire package against one another. Looking at specific pieces of gear and then adjusting their value because of your perceptions of class abilities, especially at this stage of the PTR, is a complete waste of time.
Comparing cooldowns on the PTR isn't productive because we all know AD has substantial changes yet to come (and on live, Warrior cooldowns, especially with 4 piece t8, are vastly superior to Paladin cooldowns). Comparing blocking is silly because warriors scale better with block gear of all sorts than paladins and are likely to benefit more from the changes to block. I've had enough of these strawmen arguments.
Comparing blocking is silly because warriors scale better with block gear of all sorts than paladins and are likely to benefit more from the changes to block. I've had enough of these strawmen arguments.
Could you elaborate on that? Warriors usually stroll around with 0 block value on gear unless we go for the 4pc T8 on magic-centric bosses, and even then the change is pretty tiny. So our net gain would be around 0 after this change. I don't see how we'd scale better with block either, if I'm not wrong, against a physical damagedealing boss, paladin block value can be counted in effective health, right? For warriors our uptime on block is way lower, and even counting in shield block and critical block, block is really bad. Shield of Righteousness scales better with block on live with 130% block value as opposed to 1:1 and Shield Slam, and on PTR since it's still unmitigatable. We definitely benefit more from shield block rating though since it's useless for paladins, but that's a pretty sad thing to boast about. Let me know if I overlooked something glaring, there's damage shields I guess but 20% of the small amount of block value on gear won't do much. We have more talents that are affected by block but I don't think we'd benefit more from changes to block. Unless I go for a full gimmick block set it won't benefit me at all.
Regardless I hope they make block more attractive for both paladins and warriors, I think it's a fun mechanic on both of my characters, way more interesting than avoidance at least.
When looking at available block rating, Shield block and Critical block, and glyph of blocking warrior mitigation through Block value scales much better than paladins. That's not to say that warriors are going to be going for it even if they do scale better than paladins in the long term since neither seems particularly keen on using BV.
Shield of Righteousness: There is no extra threat on it. It does threat=damage*1.9*1.43, the same as all other holy abilities. So this is a tooltip error, probably just left over.
Seal of Vengeance: The DoT wasn't nerfed, they fixed the tooltip. It always did that much damage, the tooltip was never adjusted when they nerfed the duration from 18 seconds to 15. The coefficients for a 5 stack on the PTR are 6.5% SP and 12.5% AP on the DoT portion. The melee hit is indeed 33% of your weapon damage and incorporates talents, buffs, and AP changes (so 33% of your actual swing damage, not base weapon damage). Though it isn't 33% of the current swing's damage, just 33% of your general damage range.
Seals of the Pure: Does not affect the 5 stack damage of SoV. I have 445-618 weapon damage ==> 146-204 SoV 5stack damage. Seals of the pure changes that range to 168-234 if it affects the 5 stack damage. So if SotP worked, then I would never see a hit below 168 and I would see hits above 204. I received hits in the 150's from SoV 5-stack and never saw one hit for above 204 in a half hour spent on the training dummy. My spec was 5/0/0 and the points were learned (verified). I had no set bonuses (unequipped my gloves to be safe).
Ranjurm pretty much nailed it, but I'll elaborate slightly.
First, note that I didn't say it was GOOD for Warriors, especially on live, or that Warriors in boss-tanking gear even block better than Paladins, merely that Warriors scale better. As for why, its that between Critical Block and Shield Block, warriors get roughly 1.6x (1.25x block value and 1.3x critical block) as much block from each 1 BV as paladins do. On the downside, yes, paladins are close to 100% block on un-avoided attacks while warriors are going to be lower (maybe 60% including Shield Block in Boss tanking gear) which makes Paladin blocking arguably superior on live. However, in a heavy block set, the warrior will benefit substantially from Block Rating and will also get more value from Block Value (thus scaling better). When a warrior gets up to about 30% block chance, their blocking surpasses paladin blocking.
On the PTR, in standard boss tanking gear, obviously nothing changes because no one has any blocking stats if they can help it. However, block gear starts looking interesting for Warriors. Paladins in a block set will still cap at like 3k which is nice but not worth changing gearing over. Warriors, however, can get up like 12k blocks with crits and shield block. That's real mitigation.
Edit - realized I'd left out my summation paragraph.
So, that's not to say that block sets will become the preferred option or even viable for Warriors doing boss tanking (though they're certainly going to kick some butt for add tanking), but its too soon to say that they won't. A warrior in a 3k block set will block an average of 7.8k damage from 100% of blockable attacks when they use Shield Block (including average from crit blocks). That's a 3.9k increase in mitigation. Against a raid boss that hits for 20k, that's 20%, making Shield Block a Barkskin with a shorter cooldown. Testing will tell.
Warriors, however, can get up like 12k blocks with crits and shield block. That's real mitigation.
No, it's not. It's RNG in a suboptimal tanking gear setup no Warrior is going to use on bosses that threaten your life. As long as we cannot get 100% Block chance without Shield Block it's just not worth stacking BV since the sacrifices are too big (think around 5k health loss, losing softcap on expertise and hit cap, losing around 1k+ armor and 5% real avoidance for a 3k BV set (including BV buff in 3.2)). This is why I said that Paladin block is atleast as good as Warrior block when frankly I should have said that Paladin block is better because of it's consistency. It's consistent enough that BV is a direct increase in EH right now.
If you have tested it on the new Patchwerk and the results are bad, then I'd love to see the test data. If you're speculating, then I think you're jumping the gun in declaring specific gearing tactics valid or not.
It's consistent enough that BV is a direct increase in EH right now.
As a note, this really isn't as much the case now that ulduar is out. In my boss tanking gear, I am definitely under the 102.4% by 5-10% depending on which gear I am using. The push to max out effective health for the hard modes has pushed out the option to use pieces high in blockrating and even higher defense as I have gotten upgrades. As I add more gear, I will move further out.
It was pretty easy to hit 102.4% back in the naxx days if you wanted to, but the harder hitting bosses have a lot of us forgoing any attempt at hitting it in favor of increasing higher EH overall. At this point, you can't really always assume block can be EH. It really just depends on how the gear falls because a lot of us are no longer aiming for it.
Originally Posted by Wrathblood
Jere,
Just to be complete, did you see a hit under 168?
Yep yep:
Originally Posted by jere
I received hits in the 150's from SoV 5-stack and never saw one hit for above 204 in a half hour spent on the training dummy. My spec was 5/0/0 and the points were learned (verified). I had no set bonuses (unequipped my gloves to be safe).
I've been reading, and wondering, if Prot PVP in 3.2 will be viable. With the changes to SS and AD it seems it's quite an option.
I'm not sure if the SS change will affect Prot/Holy builds poping up sometimes (I assume it will) but the AD will surely allow to try some interesting Prot/xxx builds. For healing I assume either full Holy gear (this should scale somewhat good with AS I guess), for dps I guess Block gear is the way to go.
Do you think it will be viable? Or just make a second Prot/Holy build oriented on having Avanger Shield and SotT, for more Silence and second HoJ on short CD?
Edit - Added glyphs.
So far I belive Glyph of SS for more dmg reduction and Glyph of HoS, for 2min CD 20% dmg reduction. Last glyph is a bit random.
06/25/09, 12:11 PM
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