Geez. Since when did all my regular maintankadin posters start posting here?

Anyways, Prot PvP is not viable in 3.2. At least not with current revisions.

They gave Prot increased survivability talents. That was never really the issue in 3.1. What killed Prot PvP, imo, is the nerf to HoF, and the lack of a buff to GbtL. When DP falls off due to not being in melee range for 15 seconds, the prot pally runs OOM instantly and sits on his ass doing nothing. With HoF nerfed from 14 seconds out of 25, to 10 out of 25, it's much too easy to be out of melee for 15 seconds. Furthermore all the hard hitting dps talents of prot are melee: ShoR, HotR, SoV/SotM. With 10 second HoF, it's too easy to be kited all the time.

Apologies if I missed it earlier in the thread, but has someone tested Vindication's exact AP reduction? I'm wondering if it's as high as Improved Demo Shout, since that would be pretty powerful for a 2-point talent that you don't have to work for to apply.

Do you think the tooltip is incorrect? I know it says 574 on the tooltip at level 80, but I don't know a good way about verifying that offhand.

If you got a Warrior buddy on the PTR have him try to apply 0/5 Demo to 5/5 Demo. If it's 574 AP reduction then only the 5/5 Demo will stick and that's only because of it's longer duration.

Duel someone and mouse over their AP to confirm the exact amount lost.

Why do you spec vindication but not JotJ? If you are a maintank, it is a must-have, especially since you don't have to push extra buttons to get the effect. Loosing 2% crit won't effect you, but loosing JotJ leads to more dmg and thus higher chance of getting killed.

My spec will be something like 0/53/18. I love to interrupt or stun every 20s, and the minor increase in Sacred Shield and Divine Sacrifice doesn't outweigh that.

As mentioned, I do rely on a DK. I intended to make it clear, but only mentioned the TotW effect. Sorry about that.

Considering there are plenty of multitanking fights in this game, Vindication and JotJ are definitively a must have for any Paladin who wants to be self-sufficient.

What if the said DK dies? Or he's DPSing another target? You are now taking 20% more damage because you didn't want to spend 2 points.

While I agree that JoJ is a must-have (as you say, even if the chance of you needing to apply it yourself is slim, the sheer value per talent point is too huge to pass up), I'm less sure that the points required to pick up Vindication will be worthwhile if you expect to have a ret pally along.

Isn't the calculation still 14 AP = 1 dps? So, doesn't it work out to -41 dps or so? I mean that's nice and all, especially against trash, but against a boss that hits for 20k every 2 seconds, are we talking about a 0.4% reduction in damage? Actualy, that'd be pre-mitigation, so it might be more like 0.15% which isn't a lot.

Surely I'm doing that wrong. Its horrible

I'm under the impression that Ret palas don't have the points for it.

Secondarly, Vindication is 574 AP, also boss AP works differently from player AP. That debuff can count for up to 20-30% reduction in the melee damage of a boss.

Boss AP works very differently from player AP. As I understand it, bosses' damage formula is something like 10000 static damage + 10000 damage from their (say) 1000 AP. Vindication would take off almost 6k a hit in this example. While normal melee hits usually don't use a formula skewed that heavily, special hits generally have a very large AP component - this was first discovered back on Broodlord in BWL, who would start instagibbing your tank with Mortal Strike if a Warlock tossed CoReck on him.

If i remember a boss only has as much ap as a 5/5 demo shout reduces and thats why the difference between no demo shout at all, demo shout on the boss and an improved demo shout is so huge. (src: Tankspot Post)
Our guild's maintankadin just wanted ONE ability that warrior and druid tanks have because it's such a big difference on a boss and finally we are getting it

Specifically, it has been tested (through Beast Lore on Maexxna if i'm not wrong) that WotLK bosses have 540 AP.

Hence, Improved Demoralizing Shout will negate it totally.

Sure ret can sacrifice some utility to pick it up but this is a tanking talent and it's certainly something I want in my prot spec rather than in my ret one.

As a tank I consider it something so important to my role that I want to be in control of it, and I want it applied always, also when the encounter strat dictates the ret pala is best used for killing adds at the other side of the room.

Sure, I agree that both classes should have it. Ret can get by still getting every utility/dps talent, but just drop 7% run speed.

Curious... I'm assuming that's without Divine Sacrifice? Well, that or you're dropping Divine Purpose and no Seals of the Pure? I just don't see a build where I can get all DPS talents and all Utilities wrapped up.

DivSac is utility and SotP is dps (in 3.2). Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft is what I would use.
The only decisions the Ret would make is 2% more healing received/given or a shorter cooldown on HoP and duration on HoF.

Divine Purpose is a weak survivability talent in PvE, since it is not usually direct spells that kill you and PvE stuns usually cannot be HoF'ed out.

With the changes to which seal ret uses, SotP will be a must have talent (assuming it stays in it's current form). Ret still will have the points to pick up vindication as necessary though.

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

I'm assuming that SoComm will make the average ret build as it will perform better on trash then SoV. This build leaves 4 points to personal preference (so divine sacrifice is out of reach).

I second the notion that a tank should be self sufficient in both melee slow and a demo shout equivalent if he or she has the option. We already know that there are at least three multi-tank encounters in 3.2 - twin Jormungar, twin Valk'yr, and Lord Jaraxxus/Mistress of Pain.

Certainly spec how you wish, but SotP talent makes SoR better than SoC (assuming Command doesn't get buffed) for any purpose. While 7% run speed is nice, it is not necessary. I consider Vindication and DivSac must have talents for both Ret and Prot.

Random tidbit from the PTR, that I'm not aware has been mentioned yet: the application of the Judgements of the Just debuff appears to act as a hidden melee strike that applies about half a second after the Judgement debuff becomes active. With Seal of Vengeance active, judging Wisdom (on a clean target) resulted in 2 stacks of the Vengeance debuff and a Wisdom proc. Once a 5-stack is reached, this effect also triggers a second 33% weapon damage hit, which boosts the effective threat of hitting Judgement slightly.

In the screenshot, notice 3 Judgement applications, and one Seal proc (the DoT was filtered out for clarity)

I'm surprised more hasn't been said about what they are doing to Exorcism. Since it became usable on all mobs, and since it became possible to spec into Sanctity of Battle, Ex has become a major part of my tanking rotation. Its damage tends to be consistently in the 2k range for me, which has obvious merit. And I nearly always follow HoR with it. For fights requiring a fast aggro switch (e.g. 4H, various trash in Ulduar), for insta-threat on a mob that gets loose, etc., this combo is reliable and very efficient.

I realize HoR is having a damage component added to accommodate this use. But is damage = 50% AP really enough? My AP unbuffed is about 2700, so if the dmg = 1350 that is like half my average hit with exorcism (which crits very frequently). Seems pretty wimpy really. Has anyone on PTR had an opportunity to compare HoR with the old HoR/Ex combo? Any actual stories to share from tanking situations?

My suggestion would be to allow paladins to spec into some kind of instant-cast ability only usable against non-player characters. Make it trainable with 51 points in prot or bury it in the talent tree somewhere deep.