Holy Paladin thread for Patch 3.2 changes - Page 53

• frmorrison · 11/05/09, 1:46 PM

Originally Posted by Winkle

I must say i'm very surprised by the change to LoH, i was quite surprised to reads GC reasoning behind the nerf. I was never under the impression that classes were usually balanced around BG performance.

Classes likely will in 4.0. In the next expansion, you can run rated Battlegrounds for Arena points, so LoH may too useful if you look at that angle.

The PTR is still a while away from being complete, and they did revert the SS change somewhat (removed the HoT for non-Holy but kept the 6 second proc) so the devs are open to change.

Aditu · 11/05/09, 4:03 PM

Originally Posted by frmorrison

Classes likely will in 4.0. In the next expansion, you can run rated Battlegrounds for Arena points, so LoH may too useful if you look at that angle.

The PTR is still a while away from being complete, and they did revert the SS change somewhat (removed the HoT for non-Holy but kept the 6 second proc) so the devs are open to change.

Except that I'm fairly certain they can disable LoH for use in rated battlegrounds.

The only way this change makes sense is if they are planning to reduce the CD of LoH significantly in which case LoH chains on the MT might be a viable strategy of sorts.

Varuk · 11/05/09, 6:15 PM

Originally Posted by Ghostcrawler

The change we're thinking about now is that LoH only causes Forbearance if you cast it on yourself. A paladin healing a paladin tank wouldn't run into the Forbearance problem.

We don't think the paladin tank needs to be able to stack both tools at once. If you know big damage is coming you can use Divine Protection. If you managed to take the big damage, you can use Lay on Hands.

Looks like they're just trying to make it a weaker CD for prot without affecting holy or ret too much. Although I still don't like the concept of Forbearance on LoH, this is probably the most reasonable change yet proposed.

I do hope we'll be getting some of this lower base CD love, though. 10 minute LoH, talented to ~6 minutes? Yes please.

• frmorrison · 11/05/09, 11:38 PM

Sanctified Light: This talent now also has a 33/66/100% chance to prevent Lay on Hands from causing Forbearance when Lay on Hands is used on others.

So 23 points in Holy, so only Holy healers will have it.

E: Blizzard still needs some tweaking. Assuming a Holy was healing a Prot Pally and the Prot already used Shield Wall, then LoH cannot be used for 2 minutes (or whatever is left on the debuff) for healing.

jdh79 · 11/06/09, 12:23 AM

Originally Posted by frmorrison

Sanctified Light: This talent now also has a 33/66/100% chance to prevent Lay on Hands from causing Forbearance when Lay on Hands is used on others.

So 23 points in Holy, so only Holy healers will have it.

E: Blizzard still needs some tweaking. Assuming a Holy was healing a Prot Pally and the Prot already used Shield Wall, then LoH cannot be used for 2 minutes (or whatever is left on the debuff) for healing.

Yeah, another issue with this change is Glyph of Divinity needs to be reworked or it needs to include a "no forbearance on self LoH" element to it. If you use this glyph and the self LoH innervate, you are locked from your bubble for 2 minutes, which basically locks you out of using bubble-hand of sacrifice on a tank. With Divine Sacrifice being more of an ability that is not tied to bubbling, and a weaker tank cooldown, I expect bubble-hand of sacrifice is going to be more frequently used come 3.3.

The problem is they probably can't make Glyph of Divinity remove the self-LoH effect, because that would then let non holy pallies use this glyph in a PvP build to circumvent the LoH nerf. IMO, the best change would be to have sanctified light cause LoH not to cause forbearance on self or others.

Palados · 11/06/09, 1:02 AM

Well, in this form it is 'almost there' - holy paladin healing tool that has some drawbacks for other specs. Also I think that locking your bubble for 2 min is a good trade-off for quite a big mana gain with the glyph. I use it probably once a month - usually after being ressed in combat. So not a big deal in my opinion.

Winkle · 11/06/09, 7:08 AM

Originally Posted by Palados

Well, in this form it is 'almost there' - holy paladin healing tool that has some drawbacks for other specs. Also I think that locking your bubble for 2 min is a good trade-off for quite a big mana gain with the glyph. I use it probably once a month - usually after being ressed in combat. So not a big deal in my opinion.

I always considered the mana a side bonus to the heal rather than the main reason for using the ability. It's primary roll is a tank saving heal and as such i don't think it should cause any kind of lock out for our only other tank save Bubble and Sac.

If Blizzard were concenred about the mana replenshiment gained from LoH then i'm sure they'd nerf that seperately.

Palados · 11/06/09, 8:53 AM

If you use LoH on tank (with SL talent) you don't lock bubble+sac. You only lock it if you LoH yourself.

Isambaard · 11/06/09, 2:57 PM

Originally Posted by frmorrison

E: Blizzard still needs some tweaking. Assuming a Holy was healing a Prot Pally and the Prot already used Shield Wall, then LoH cannot be used for 2 minutes (or whatever is left on the debuff) for healing.

I suspect the rationale is that if you want to use Imp LoH as a tanking cooldown from a Holy paladin you'd coordinate the order in which they get used, GC has said they consider needing to coordinate in this fashion a good thing. It does suck to lose it as a panic button though.

Mox · 11/06/09, 4:24 PM

Infusion of Light on the PTR atm must be bugged, just been boss testing and if you cast fol on anyone with sacred shield they do not get the HoT, but if you cast it on yourself you do get the HoT.

• frmorrison · 11/06/09, 5:14 PM

Originally Posted by Mox

Infusion of Light on the PTR atm must be bugged, just been boss testing and if you cast fol on anyone with sacred shield they do not get the HoT, but if you cast it on yourself you do get the HoT.

Use the in-game /feedback tool and/or the PTR forums when you see bugs like that. With all the Paladin healing changes, errors like that are prone to happen.

Mackzz · 11/06/09, 9:22 PM

Beacon can now be placed on Valithria. This fight is tailor made for a paladin. I also found that Infusion of Light was bugged on the PTR as i was not noticing the Hot

exedorable · 11/07/09, 4:05 PM

Just wanted to ask if the healing received from a holy paladin by the Beaconed target shows up as regular healing on meters. Is it exempt from overhealing completely?

• frmorrison · 11/07/09, 4:13 PM

Originally Posted by exedorable

Just wanted to ask if the healing received from a holy paladin by the Beaconed target shows up as regular healing on meters. Is it exempt from overhealing completely?

Yes, it shows up just fine. The combat log will report the overhealing done by the Beacon healing.

DiamondTear · 11/07/09, 6:54 PM

Has anyone else noticed the beacon not transferring heals after 1.5 minutes (i.e. after the buff fades) on the PTR?

Mackzz · 11/08/09, 1:12 AM

From what I saw during our brief stint testing The Gunship battle , it looked as though beacon heals were not going through after 1.5 minutes. There were alot of things going on during the fight due to it being bugged so I may have simply not noticed the heals going through.

jdh79 · 11/08/09, 8:29 AM

I was just doing some thinking on the value of speccing Improved Righteous Fury. It's a great talent to have to get 6% damage reduction as long as the mechanics of the fight allow you to actually safely use it. This is my experience with T8 fights and above and whether healing with righteous fury on is safe or not.

Fights that you can safely use RF on:
Ignis
Razorscale
XT
Kologarn
Auriaya
Iron Council
Algalon
Auriaya
Hodir
Thorim
Mimiron
Vezax
Yogg-Saron (most tanks specifically request a holy pally with this on to help them pick up adds easier in P3)
Koralon
Emalon
Northrend Beasts
Jaraxxus
Faction Champions
Twin Valkyrs

Fights that you probably should have it turned off:

Onyxia (whelp aggro can be a heal problem if they all aggro immediately to you)
Freya (aggro from spawning adds; especially the lashers)
Anub'Arak (tank healing in P3 you will be doing alot of threat which I have found causes problems for tanks)

tiberion02 · 11/08/09, 4:32 PM

I was under the impression that everyone who picks up Divine Sacrifice is already taking Improved Righteous Fury and using it on nearly every boss. There is literally nothing else worthwhile in the prot tree to take after Stoicism, Divinity and Guardian's Favor.

Dewei · 11/08/09, 8:18 PM

Originally Posted by Mex

Some people seem to be a little confused here.

FoL and HL are not 'specs'. They are not 'playstyles'. They are spells. Baseline spells available to every paladin beyond level 20. Choosing to use one in no way precludes the use of the other. This entire discussion has been blown way out of proportion, to the point that people seem to now be assuming that if you cast FoL it locks out your HL spell for the rest of the fight and vice versa.

I can understand that identifying two different playstyles by their predominant spell seems logical, but extrapolating that to the exclusion of all other spells is ridiculous. Let's remember what the real differences here are -- SP / mixed gemming / trinkets vs pure-int stacking, a different libram, 4T9 and glyphs of SoL + FoL vs SoW + HL. That's it. Nobody is skipping Light's Grace and Sanctified Light in their builds. Nobody is removing FoL from their bars. It's straight up throughput vs mana pool.

I honestly can't believe that this needs to be stressed, but any paladin who deliberately limits themselves to a single spell, regardless of spec / gems / glyphs / raid comp / whatever, is an idiot. Claims that 'FoL builds' don't have enough throughput are ridiculous. FoL as a spell might not, but HL with stacked SP delivers higher HPS than HL with stacked int. I don't know if this is a symptom of the fact that paladins have in practicality been forced to limit themselves to a single spell since Sunwell or what, but this prevalent attitude of playstyles being defined by the repeated pressing of a single button to the exclusion of everything else doesn't fit within the realm of intelligent healer behaviour.

Now, it's obvious that not everyone here is limiting themselves in such a way, but there definitely seems to be a selection of posters who have it in their minds that SP stacked, GoSoL paladins do nothing but mash FoL all day. Such paladins may exist, but they don't warrant anything beyond a contemptuous disinterest. Discussion regarding stacking throughput versus effective mana is productive and interesting, so please don't muddy it by assuming that focusing on throughput necessitates the inability to identify when to switch to HL, or that int stacking precludes the ability to take advantage of great scaling on FoL once per 12 seconds.

For what it's worth, I tend to agree with the people espousing 'HL' (read: int stacking + GoSoW) as the superior option, mostly because I prefer the flexibility and capacity for relatively high, sustained throughput. Such a healing style has always been superior in my opinion because it isn't as reliant upon the levels of precision required by the harder hitting but less sustainable alternative. There's a greater margin for error, which in the context of difficult (ie not-yet-beaten) content is always going to be valuable. If people are willing to pay closer attention in exchange for a higher degree of control, then that's their perogative, it only really becomes non-viable if they refuse to deviate from spamming a single spell, which is a ridiculous premise to begin with.

First of all, sorry for my poor english.

It can sound a little shitty, but I usually use FoL in low-damage phases (hand of sacrifice active, lay of hands..), to save some mana and avoid excessive overhealing.

I use this macro:
#showtooltip Flash
/equip Deadly Gladiator's Libram of Justice
/cast Flash of Light

Then, I return to HL and use this:
#showtooltip HL
/equip Libram of Renewal
/cast Holy Light

I have linked it to the Healbot and seems to work properly.

Yes, it´s a little crapp, but at least my FoL are a little bit strongers.

Just my 2 cents.

Spaarky · 11/08/09, 8:36 PM

Originally Posted by Dewei

First of all, sorry for my poor english.

It can sound a little shitty, but I usually use FoL in low-damage phases (hand of sacrifice active, lay of hands..), to save some mana and avoid excessive overhealing.

I use this macro:
#showtooltip Flash
/equip Deadly Gladiator's Libram of Justice
/cast Flash of Light

Then, I return to HL and use this:
#showtooltip HL
/equip Libram of Renewal
/cast Holy Light

I have linked it to the Healbot and seems to work properly.

Yes, it´s a little crapp, but at least my FoL are a little bit strongers.

Just my 2 cents.

Libram swapping is one of the worst things you can do. Librams have an internal cooldown when they are equipped, so if you are say casting 1 HL then 2 Fol, you are not getting the benefit of either libram. The only time you are getting a benefit is if you are say casting chain FoL for an extended period of time and then switching to HL for an extended period of time. Either way most fights you do not, or most likely are not casting a lot of FoL vs HL, unless it is something you outgear, but this would not be the case if it is a progression encounter.

jdh79 · 11/08/09, 9:03 PM

Originally Posted by Spaarky

Libram swapping is one of the worst things you can do. Librams have an internal cooldown when they are equipped, so if you are say casting 1 HL then 2 Fol, you are not getting the benefit of either libram. The only time you are getting a benefit is if you are say casting chain FoL for an extended period of time and then switching to HL for an extended period of time. Either way most fights you do not, or most likely are not casting a lot of FoL vs HL, unless it is something you outgear, but this would not be the case if it is a progression encounter.

I was under the impression that libram switching also invokes a GCD too? In any case, with holy, generally you know before the fight starts how much HL vs FoL you'll be using and can just swap librams that way. Unless its a heroic or regular 10 man ToC, I already know I will be primarily using HL, so stick with Libram of Renewal. The only thing I've found libram switching macros useful for is when I go ret, you can swap librams based on what seal you're using.

Rataard · 11/08/09, 11:06 PM

So with the recent changes to FoL where every FoL regardless of whether or not the target has sacred shield invokes a HoT effect if you have Infusion of Light (any raid healing spec) has the merits of the T10 4 piece been re-examined? A lot of the assumption about it assumed a HL playstyle, where if it was a FoL playstyle, and the pally was stacking a lot of SP, not only would the HS be more viable, but it would ease the pally into a HL-spam phase, should the need arise, because the HS effect on HL will have an effect on a non-light's grace HL, making it more effective.

jdh79 · 11/08/09, 11:27 PM

Originally Posted by Rataard

So with the recent changes to FoL where every FoL regardless of whether or not the target has sacred shield invokes a HoT effect if you have Infusion of Light (any raid healing spec) has the merits of the T10 4 piece been re-examined? A lot of the assumption about it assumed a HL playstyle, where if it was a FoL playstyle, and the pally was stacking a lot of SP, not only would the HS be more viable, but it would ease the pally into a HL-spam phase, should the need arise, because the HS effect on HL will have an effect on a non-light's grace HL, making it more effective.

There was no change to the FoL-SS HoT interaction; the patch notes are just misleading. On the PTR, you still get no HoT unless SS is on the target. The only change is that only paladins with Infusion of Light can get a SS HoT.

DiamondTear · 11/09/09, 11:01 AM

Originally Posted by Spaarky

Libram swapping is one of the worst things you can do. Librams have an internal cooldown when they are equipped, so if you are say casting 1 HL then 2 Fol, you are not getting the benefit of either libram. The only time you are getting a benefit is if you are say casting chain FoL for an extended period of time and then switching to HL for an extended period of time. Either way most fights you do not, or most likely are not casting a lot of FoL vs HL, unless it is something you outgear, but this would not be the case if it is a progression encounter.

Neither of the librams he mentioned has a cooldown. And libram swapping is great for retribution.

Sansei · 11/09/09, 11:48 AM

Originally Posted by DiamondTear

Neither of the librams he mentioned has a cooldown. And libram swapping is great for retribution.

I'm sure he meant the GCD in which you have to wait when you swap any librams. I wouldn't recommend libram swapping unless if it's during idle times (phase change, running, etc) At least I wouldn't bind it to my FoL and HL casts. You can make a macro to swap librams only for when you actually think the duration you'll be casting the spell is worth waiting the GCD

EDIT: I checked this when i got home today. I must say i'm surprised at first because it wasn't consuming GCD at swapping. Apparently i forgot about the in combat, out of combat thing. When in combat, it does go on GCD when you swap librams.