I do not think as a TbtL paladin you will need to stack MP5. Simply spamming FoL is quite mana efficient, and will last you quite a long time. Over the course of almost every fight in Ulduar, you will take damage somehow; if you have points in Spritual Attunement, then when someone heals you you get a stack of mana back.
tldr; Spiritual Attunement means we effectively have infinite mana (in a stereotypical fight).
Well, maybe not -infinite- mana, but certainly quite a bit at our disposal. Possibly infinite though if the raid doesn't mind us standing in one spot the entire time so we can keep up the healing, even if it means we're taking damage. At least we'll be taking less damage thanks to talents. Given the nature of TbtL, we'd be gearing up with Haste/Crit more than anything else, and will likely be gemming spellpower to make the FoL crits more viable.
Alas, if only Holy had a talent that gave more use to crits from all our heals instead of just HS.
Well, maybe not -infinite- mana, but certainly quite a bit at our disposal. Possibly infinite though if the raid doesn't mind us standing in one spot the entire time so we can keep up the healing, even if it means we're taking damage. At least we'll be taking less damage thanks to talents. Given the nature of TbtL, we'd be gearing up with Haste/Crit more than anything else, and will likely be gemming spellpower to make the FoL crits more viable.
Alas, if only Holy had a talent that gave more use to crits from all our heals instead of just HS.
That's a good point... I was thinking of stacking Mp5 because in a build without Spiritual Attunement you can reach a balance point of mana in -> mana out with very reasonable amounts of Mp5 (plus raid buffs and Replenishment etc.) With SA, though, it'd make sense to gem enough Haste to put FoL at 1 second, then gem Crit or SP from there.
Given the nature of TbtL, we'd be gearing up with Haste/Crit more than anything else
Haste? I'm almost at 1 second FoLs in my current gear and 0.8x seconds when Heroism is up. A TbtL spec should be stacking spell power at the expense of everything else.
The TbtL is getting a little out of hand, and this is coming from a former proponent of Sheath healing.
We are facing a more mana-intensive game in 3.2. The solution is to manage and manipulate our mana so that we can continue to heal 2+ targets via beacon, not bastardize our spec into a clone from the old single-target days of BC in the interest of unlimited mana.
As many paladins have stated before, what good is infinite mana when you can only heal one person?
There is absolutely no reason to bring a TbtL paladin to heal 1 person instead of a Beacon paladin to heal 2. Unless the claim is being made that a single TbtL paladin can keep the MT up indefinitely with absolutely no assistance from any other healer, which I can assure you from personal experience with the playstyle in Ulduar, is not the case.
TbtL and Sheath continue to be novelty specs that are fun to play with on off nights. They will not secure you a raid slot in hardmode progression content. We would be better focused on how to prolong Beacon's mana longevity than what stats to stack for a "fun" spec.
Haste? I'm almost at 1 second FoLs in my current gear and 0.8x seconds when Heroism is up. A TbtL spec should be stacking spell power at the expense of everything else.
It's important to mention that you're currently also gaining 15% haste from JotP, something that TbtL doesn't have access to.
Touched by the Light prot healing specs are a BAD choice for PvE, I don't even think they should be seriously discussed. What you gain is minimal. The primary gains are about 525-550 spell power and mana regen from incoming heals. Minor gains include 1 minute off your bubble cooldown (more frequent bubble+sac) and great surviveability with Ardent Defender.
The loses from the holy tree are huge. Most of the spell power gained through TbtL is countered by the loss from Holy Guidance. So your net gain in spell power is really somewhere around 150-200 over a holy build. You also lose 2% crit to all holy spells which counters some of the mana regen gained from Spiritual Attunement (as well as some of the SP gains).
Next is the huge loss of 15% haste, which is equivalent to 490 haste rating. So now you are looking at gaining 150-200 spell power at a loss of 490 haste rating. Based on item budgets, you are losing 3 haste for every 1 gain in spell power. Your Holy Lights will also cast 0.5 seconds longer w/o lights grace, so now you're looking at around 2 second HL casts instead of 1.35 second casts with top end gear.
Then you lose our only instant cast heal along with Beacon of Light. Beacon in 3.2 is going to be a TRUE 2 for 1 heal allowing us to have 100% confidence that our raid heals will also heal the tank. On highly mobile fights, having Holy Shock is great, but also having an instant cast FoL following a HS crit can be a lifesaver on the run.
IMO, you will become a weak healer that always has mana and contributes little the the overall healing team with this spec. You'll have to spam slow holy lights on the raid which will only hit 1 person. Any time you are on the move you won't have a heal to cast. This is just a general thought, but I'd say that healing with TbtL would be at least a 50% reduction in what you could put out from a holy build.
Touched by the Light prot healing specs are a BAD choice for PvE, I don't even think they should be seriously discussed. What you gain is minimal. The primary gains are about 525-550 spell power and mana regen from incoming heals. Minor gains include 1 minute off your bubble cooldown (more frequent bubble+sac) and great surviveability with Ardent Defender.
The loses from the holy tree are huge. Most of the spell power gained through TbtL is countered by the loss from Holy Guidance. So your net gain in spell power is really somewhere around 150-200 over a holy build. You also lose 2% crit to all holy spells which counters some of the mana regen gained from Spiritual Attunement (as well as some of the SP gains).
Next is the huge loss of 15% haste, which is equivalent to 490 haste rating. So now you are looking at gaining 150-200 spell power at a loss of 490 haste rating. Based on item budgets, you are losing 3 haste for every 1 gain in spell power. Your Holy Lights will also cast 0.5 seconds longer w/o lights grace, so now you're looking at around 2 second HL casts instead of 1.35 second casts with top end gear.
Then you lose our only instant cast heal along with Beacon of Light. Beacon in 3.2 is going to be a TRUE 2 for 1 heal allowing us to have 100% confidence that our raid heals will also heal the tank. On highly mobile fights, having Holy Shock is great, but also having an instant cast FoL following a HS crit can be a lifesaver on the run.
IMO, you will become a weak healer that always has mana and contributes little the the overall healing team with this spec. You'll have to spam slow holy lights on the raid which will only hit 1 person. Any time you are on the move you won't have a heal to cast. This is just a general thought, but I'd say that healing with TbtL would be at least a 50% reduction in what you could put out from a holy build.
Too many assumptions. TbtL in 3.2 would be for a few specific fight models only - Algalon, Vezax, Yogg and maybe Thorim. It would be meant to replace a standard beacon spec on fights where Beacon itself isn't useful due to either constant tank swapping or the need to output very high single target HPS at the cost of everything else. It's also to bring over Blessing of Sanctuary as a raid buff if your raid comp allows you to cast it (or needs you to cast it, in some cases). What TbtL wouldn't be for is pretty much everything else since the gains and loses that are brought about by the TbtL spec compared to a Beacon spec don't end up meaning much (extra survivability vs Holy Shock/haste).
In any case, I've seen a lot of people talking about the Beacon change being the best thing to happen to WoW healing since stacking HoTs - sorry to say this but it's a minor buff outside of a few specific fights. Keep in mind that once 3.2 hits, we'll be *FORCED* to use Flash of Light and that Flash of Light's HPS is terrible unless you're spamming a pet or a Feral Druid - but if you're doing that then you're almost better off using TbtL.
Edit: Here's another way to look at it - you're either going to be using Holy Light spam to maximize your HPS for short periods of time or you're going to use Flash. With a Beacon spec your options are to:
A) Holy Light spam the raid during heavy AoE
B) Holy Light spam a target with %healing taken to maximize HPS on the tank
C) Flash the raid during mild AoE
D) Flash spam a target with % healing taken while keeping the Flash HoT rolling on the tank (preferably letting it roll from a crit Flash)
A and B won't be sustainable for more than 2-3 minutes assuming lots of movements and really, really good gear. A conservative estimate would be 90-120 seconds' worth of Holy Light spam before being dry. C yields extremely poor HPS on your tank and D will yield decent HPS on the tank but nothing else outside of one less target for raid healers to take care of - unless it's a Hunter pet. Now each fight will most likely force us into 3 or 4 of those situations to remain effective healer. TbtL comes in as a viable alternative when you spend most of the fight's duration doing B and D - which is doing heavy healing on the tank. Make no mistake, if there's raid damage and if the tank damage isn't significant enough to warrant taking advantage for Beacon double dipping with healing modifiers, then TbtL builds are completely outclassed. If the opposite is true, then TbtL becomes a viable alternative that provides the Paladin with vastly increased survivability.
Last edited by Zaroua : 07/21/09 at 6:32 AM.
Theorycrafting procedures per role:
DPS = Theory -> Spreadsheet -> Practice
Healing = Theory -> Practice -> Logs
Tanking = Theory -> Theory -> Theory
Alas, if only Holy had a talent that gave more use to crits from all our heals instead of just HS.
Are you sure you want to go into holy if you go for tbtl?
With Spiritual Attunement and 25% extra mp5 on items i don't think you will need to go into holy to get Illumination, when you consider the low cost of FoL and Illumination only returning 30%.
Retri will give you 8% crit to FoL and you will still be able to pick up Spiritual Focus and Healing Light from holy, you will lose 6% int from Divine Intellect but i still think it will be worth it. With the glyph and pvp gloves you get another 7% crit to FoL, all in all i think you can boost the crit without going holy.
Too many assumptions. TbtL in 3.2 would be for a few specific fight models only - Algalon, Vezax, Yogg and maybe Thorim. It would be meant to replace a standard beacon spec on fights where Beacon itself isn't useful due to either constant tank swapping or the need to output very high single target HPS at the cost of everything else. It's also to bring over Blessing of Sanctuary as a raid buff if your raid comp allows you to cast it (or needs you to cast it, in some cases). What TbtL wouldn't be for is pretty much everything else since the gains and loses that are brought about by the TbtL spec compared to a Beacon spec don't end up meaning much (extra survivability vs Holy Shock/haste).
In any case, I've seen a lot of people talking about the Beacon change being the best thing to happen to WoW healing since stacking HoTs - sorry to say this but it's a minor buff outside of a few specific fights. Keep in mind that once 3.2 hits, we'll be *FORCED* to use Flash of Light and that Flash of Light's HPS is terrible unless you're spamming a pet or a Feral Druid - but if you're doing that then you're almost better off using TbtL.
Or with Divinity, we can spam FoL on ourselves. It's not as big of a gain compared to using on a feral or pet, but it's something you can guarantee will always be there.
There is also the note about a TbtL build being far more viable for 25's because of how many healers there are and what their assignments are. Given the number of buffs, plus the available gearing choice,s the HPS of a TbtL build on a single target could still be very high while also being extremely efficient. With FoL's crit reaching into the 50's, an SS proc would guarantee a crit and therefore a double heal essentially.
Going up to 4pT9 would sweeten the deal since that grants a 100% bonus to the FoL HoT. Hopefully the tick heal amount is doubled instead of the HoT itself having twice the duration...
One more thing to note is that if the HoT ticks every second, it may be more beneficial for a TbtL to have -slower- FoL's, thanks to the tick going through for however much and then another FoL hitting.
Originally Posted by dexinton
Are you sure you want to go into holy if you go for tbtl?
With Spiritual Attunement and 25% extra mp5 on items i don't think you will need to go into holy to get Illumination, when you consider the low cost of FoL and Illumination only returning 30%.
Retri will give you 8% crit to FoL and you will still be able to pick up Spiritual Focus and Healing Light from holy, you will lose 6% int from Divine Intellect but i still think it will be worth it. With the glyph and pvp gloves you get another 7% crit to FoL, all in all i think you can boost the crit without going holy.
Very good point actually.. A build along the lines of 10/43/18 would have the higher crit and therefore healing. Heck, we might even take out the last two points of Divine Int and put it in POJ so we can move better if necessary.
But I think you misunderstood me when I said "Alas, if only Holy had a talent that gave more use to crits from all our heals instead of just HS." I meant that Holy should have a talent that gives an added effect to our crits like Touched by the Light or Sheath of Light do.
Last edited by Jackinthegreen : 07/21/09 at 6:12 AM.
Too many assumptions. TbtL in 3.2 would be for a few specific fight models only - Algalon, Vezax, Yogg and maybe Thorim. It would be meant to replace a standard beacon spec on fights where Beacon itself isn't useful due to either constant tank swapping or the need to output very high single target HPS at the cost of everything else. It's also to bring over Blessing of Sanctuary as a raid buff if your raid comp allows you to cast it (or needs you to cast it, in some cases). What TbtL wouldn't be for is pretty much everything else since the gains and loses that are brought about by the TbtL spec compared to a Beacon spec don't end up meaning much (extra survivability vs Holy Shock/haste).In any case, I've seen a lot of people talking about the Beacon change being the best thing to happen to WoW healing since stacking HoTs - sorry to say this but it's a minor buff outside of a few specific fights. Keep in mind that once 3.2 hits, we'll be *FORCED* to use Flash of Light and that Flash of Light's HPS is terrible unless you're spamming a pet or a Feral Druid - but if you're doing that then you're almost better off using TbtL.
On fights where you need very high HPS, you will be spamming our lower HPS spell? Heck, if you don't like Beacon, you can skip it, but TbtL is in no way even close to giving you the same HPS increase for FoL that JotP will give you. Not to mention the fact that your Holy Light HPS goes down even more due to losing Light's Grace.
We will not be FORCED to use Flash of Light (Edit: at least not exclusively FoL). You're ignoring the fact that flash of light's HPM is not incredibly better than that of Holy Light. The difference mainly comes from the mana per second you use while spamming the spell, which makes it better at healing small damage. We will still be able to use HL, just probably not ALL the fight. I think you're overestimating the extent of our mana problems in 3.2, but then again, that remains to be seen.
On a more general note, I seriously don't understand what a TbtL gives you, except on gimmick fights (read Vezax, where indeed you are FORCED to use FoL and the increased haste is not that good an idea). Spiritual Attunement? More survivability? (You get that if you put BoL on yourself, way more than what you get from going that deep into protection)
Originally Posted by Jackinthegreen
One more thing to note is that if the HoT ticks every second, it may be more beneficial for a TbtL to have -slower- FoL's, thanks to the tick going through for however much and then another FoL hitting.
Don't worry, your FoLs won't be faster than 1 second, think GCD cap.
On fights where you need very high HPS, you will be spamming our lower HPS spell? Heck, if you don't like Beacon, you can skip it, but TbtL is in no way even close to giving you the same HPS increase for FoL that JotP will give you. Not to mention the fact that your Holy Light HPS goes down even more due to losing Light's Grace.
We will not be FORCED to use Flash of Light (Edit: at least not exclusively FoL). You're ignoring the fact that flash of light's HPM is not incredibly better than that of Holy Light. The difference mainly comes from the mana per second you use while spamming the spell, which makes it better at healing small damage. We will still be able to use HL, just probably not ALL the fight. I think you're overestimating the extent of our mana problems in 3.2, but then again, that remains to be seen.
On a more general note, I seriously don't understand what a TbtL gives you, except on gimmick fights (read Vezax, where indeed you are FORCED to use FoL and the increased haste is not that good an idea). Spiritual Attunement? More survivability? (You get that if you put BoL on yourself, way more than what you get from going that deep into protection)
TbtL can still use Holy Lights and still get pretty good HPS out of it, rough napkin math assuming all out SP would yield about 8-9HPS while spamming HL; compared to the 9-10k HPS I get on live and excluding the FoL hot and Sacred Shield procs which will be both far stronger as TbtL compared to Beacon spec.
The best way to explain what I mean about being forced to use Flash of Light once 3.2 will hit live is this: on live I barely ever make the decision to cast Flash of Light during a boss fight because I can simply hit my Holy Light button harder and not worry about my mana. I'll use XT as an example: what I do once the heart is killed is spam Holy Light on the tank, top off people with the bombs with Flash/Holy Shock and Holy Light the melee during tantrum - I'm almost OOM by the time the fight ends. Under 3.2 circumstances, I'd be forced to use Flash of Light to keep up with mana when everything is under control and when the tank is using cooldowns because it would be almost impossible to make up for the 500MP5 nerf from Illumination/Divine Intellect/Replenishment. In other words, I'd have to conserve mana by playing smart.
And I don't see many reasons to self case Beacon in 3.2 - worst case scenario would be to Beacon the tank and spam yourself to benefit from Divinity.
Theorycrafting procedures per role:
DPS = Theory -> Spreadsheet -> Practice
Healing = Theory -> Practice -> Logs
Tanking = Theory -> Theory -> Theory
TbtL can still use Holy Lights and still get pretty good HPS out of it, rough napkin math assuming all out SP would yield about 8-9HPS while spamming HL; compared to the 9-10k HPS I get on live and excluding the FoL hot and Sacred Shield procs which will be both far stronger as TbtL compared to Beacon spec.
The best way to explain what I mean about being forced to use Flash of Light once 3.2 will hit live is this: on live I barely ever make the decision to cast Flash of Light during a boss fight because I can simply hit my Holy Light button harder and not worry about my mana. I'll use XT as an example: what I do once the heart is killed is spam Holy Light on the tank, top off people with the bombs with Flash/Holy Shock and Holy Light the melee during tantrum - I'm almost OOM by the time the fight ends. Under 3.2 circumstances, I'd be forced to use Flash of Light to keep up with mana when everything is under control and when the tank is using cooldowns because it would be almost impossible to make up for the 500MP5 nerf from Illumination/Divine Intellect/Replenishment. In other words, I'd have to conserve mana by playing smart.
And I don't see many reasons to self case Beacon in 3.2 - worst case scenario would be to Beacon the tank and spam yourself to benefit from Divinity.
Decent HPS =/= decent tank healing. Do you really think that on half the fights you listed - thorim and algalon - your tank will survive if you switch to HL with a ~2 sec cast time? Remember, no JotP and no Light's Grace. The only way you'd know if the tank needs you to switch from FoL to a HL or two is if there's a cast timed hit (fusion punch) or if the tank's health is falling behind. In the first situation, a slow HL is fine. But in the second situation, by the time you've realised the tank's health is not being topped up as it should, you now need another 2 secs to get a HL up, which is too much.
Another problem with tbtl is the fact that it depends on crits. If you don't crit? Well your FoL hits the tank for not much more than a normal Beacon paladin does. No matter how high your crit chance will be, if you're depending on it to do sufficient healing to ensure tank survival, there will be times when your heal doesn't crit and the tank dies.
XT HM hardly requires holy light spam on the tank. Personally I finish XT HM with plenty of mana to spare - boss doesn't hit all that hard, and there's plenty of room for me to melee. The only situations I've found (haven't done freya/mimiron HM and beyond) where non-stop HL spam is required is IC HM P3 (which should only last 1min 30sec max) and the last few stacks of Thorim HM. On no entire fight have I been required to spam HL continually to keep tank alive. Also, I'm finding that I use DP rarely now when I have to heal - I only pop it when there's a lull in the action (Hodir flash freeze etc). I expect that if one rotates in FoL for the HoT, and use DP more generously, coupled with switching to some mp/5 + haste pieces (which also are of higher ilvl) with the mp/5 buff, you wouldn't be restricted to such an extent as to have to forgo HL spam for a tbtl build.
Oh, and there's usually a couple of innervates to go around as well.
It is safe to say he hasn't done Algalon (where you need to chain HL and most people haven't done him). In addition, it sounds like his raid uses 6-7 healers, so he doesn't need the same hps as using 4-6.
Millions of words are written annually purporting to tell how to beat the races, whereas the best possible advice on the subject is found in the three monosyllables: 'Do not try.'
It is safe to say he hasn't done Algalon (where you need to chain HL and most people haven't done him). In addition, it sounds like his raid uses 6-7 healers, so he doesn't need the same hps as using 4-6.
On the fights which I talked about, I believe we use 5 for IC HM and 6 for Thorim HM.
And yes, I haven't done Algalon. But if you're spamming HL for Algalon it's safe to say that a tbtl build wouldn't cut it, which was all I was trying to say in the first place.
Is anyone able to confirm this rumor that Divine Sacrifice will be changed to cap at 150% of our health even if fully immune? I am unable to find a blue post to back it up.
If the change actually goes through I don't see any reason to spec into prot, except maybe for holy paladins focused on ten man content where a small shield might still be marginally beneficial. Even with lower illumination returns, 8% crit seems far more attractive.
Is anyone able to confirm this rumor that Divine Sacrifice will be changed to cap at 150% of our health even if fully immune? I am unable to find a blue post to back it up.
If the change actually goes through I don't see any reason to spec into prot, except maybe for holy paladins focused on ten man content where a small shield might still be marginally beneficial. Even with lower illumination returns, 8% crit seems far more attractive.
One person saying DiSac is nerfed doesn't mean much (I doubt a Blue would mention it), since people can troll at MMO forums.
Even if it is, the extra SS buffs, Divinity (so you can spam heals on yourself for 10% bonus on the Beacon), and imp Devo are outstanding for 10 mans.
Millions of words are written annually purporting to tell how to beat the races, whereas the best possible advice on the subject is found in the three monosyllables: 'Do not try.'
Too many assumptions. TbtL in 3.2 would be for a few specific fight models only - Algalon, Vezax, Yogg and maybe Thorim. It would be meant to replace a standard beacon spec on fights where Beacon itself isn't useful due to either constant tank swapping or the need to output very high single target HPS at the cost of everything else. It's also to bring over Blessing of Sanctuary as a raid buff if your raid comp allows you to cast it (or needs you to cast it, in some cases). What TbtL wouldn't be for is pretty much everything else since the gains and loses that are brought about by the TbtL spec compared to a Beacon spec don't end up meaning much (extra survivability vs Holy Shock/haste).
Edit: Here's another way to look at it - you're either going to be using Holy Light spam to maximize your HPS for short periods of time or you're going to use Flash. With a Beacon spec your options are to:
A) Holy Light spam the raid during heavy AoE
B) Holy Light spam a target with %healing taken to maximize HPS on the tank
C) Flash the raid during mild AoE
D) Flash spam a target with % healing taken while keeping the Flash HoT rolling on the tank (preferably letting it roll from a crit Flash)
A and B won't be sustainable for more than 2-3 minutes assuming lots of movements and really, really good gear. A conservative estimate would be 90-120 seconds' worth of Holy Light spam before being dry. C yields extremely poor HPS on your tank and D will yield decent HPS on the tank but nothing else outside of one less target for raid healers to take care of - unless it's a Hunter pet. Now each fight will most likely force us into 3 or 4 of those situations to remain effective healer. TbtL comes in as a viable alternative when you spend most of the fight's duration doing B and D - which is doing heavy healing on the tank. Make no mistake, if there's raid damage and if the tank damage isn't significant enough to warrant taking advantage for Beacon double dipping with healing modifiers, then TbtL builds are completely outclassed. If the opposite is true, then TbtL becomes a viable alternative that provides the Paladin with vastly increased survivability.
In a scenario where the only thing you do is sit and spam on the tank, a TbtL build could possibly outheal a Holy build, but I still think it's unlikely. The spellpower gain is minimal because the SP gain from stamina is offset by the SP loss from intellect. Since it's a highly situational healing spec, you will be gemmed for your Holy spec, and not pure spell power for a TbtL spec. Spell criticals will heal for a lot more which will give consistently large FoL plus a hot for your SS target.
Also, we bring a Disc priest to every raid (really great addition, imo), and they keep up the same buff that BoS provides.
The real advantage can only come if there's enough raid damge to allow you to spam HL non stop on the tank, while getting off a large crit FoL every 12 seconds to keep the HoT rolling. Holy Lights will cast a lot slower, but the idea is you'll be able to spam it which almost gaurantees the tank will stay up. Spamming HL won't be something you can do wit the Holy build.
The loss of 15% haste is huge, though, and translates roughly to a 15% reduction in healing. So the TbtL spec has to make up that 15% through slightly higher SP, larger crits, and the ability to spam HL. With mana regen changes, however, Holy paladins won't be able to just spam heals aimlessly, so that will cut down some of the haste advantage. With 600 haste, I can cast 1 HL and 3 FoL in 4.5 seconds as Holy. In that same amount of time with 600 haste, a TbtL paladin could only get off 2 Holy Lights. I think in almost any fight getting of the 1 HL and 3 FoL will be better for the raid. However if you are truly only in need of the tank getting healed, the holy spec will be inferior.
In the example above, the other thing to consider is that the holy build getting off 1 HL and 3 FoL with beacon on the tank means a lot more healing output. One of the FoL might go on the tank if SS procs (for a guaranteed crit and large HoT), but then the HL and 2 more FoL heal a random raid member AND the tank.
I think time will only tell for this one. We can discuss it until we are blue in the face, but TbtL just has to be looked at on a fight by fight basis. The only justification I can see for using it is in a fight where it holds a solid advantage to the point that using the standard holy spec would be a detriment to the raid.
Is anyone able to confirm this rumor that Divine Sacrifice will be changed to cap at 150% of our health even if fully immune? I am unable to find a blue post to back it up.
That's how DiSac currently works. The majority of the time, DiSac falls off at 150% of my health, despite being bubbled. Of course I've also seen it last the full 10 seconds too, but it happens very rarely. Its a bugged talent.
That's how DiSac currently works. The majority of the time, DiSac falls off at 150% of my health, despite being bubbled. Of course I've also seen it last the full 10 seconds too, but it happens very rarely. Its a bugged talent.
Errr what? Mine has never failed to last full duration when I've bubbled first, often doing 100k+ absorbed.
Example from last weeks XT Hard kill, used sacrifice twice during tauntrums:
I've noticed on situations where the raid is taking huge amounts of damage at the same time, a bubbled Divine Sacrifice doesn't turn off once it reaches the 150% health mark.
Like the above poster, on XT and Hodir hard, my bubbles account for roughly 150k damage absorbed per use.
I haven't tested to see if it's the order of use (Bubble before DiSac) or the nature of damage (high concurrent raid damage), but it definitely seems to be a bug, as that kind of damage prevention is insane. We generally have four pallies on 25 XT Hard, alternating 1-2 DiSacs per tantrum making healing laughable. No other class has a cooldown that's even remotely close.
Edit: Here's another way to look at it - you're either going to be using Holy Light spam to maximize your HPS for short periods of time or you're going to use Flash. With a Beacon spec your options are to:
A) Holy Light spam the raid during heavy AoE
B) Holy Light spam a target with %healing taken to maximize HPS on the tank
C) Flash the raid during mild AoE
D) Flash spam a target with % healing taken while keeping the Flash HoT rolling on the tank (preferably letting it roll from a crit Flash)
[snip] TbtL comes in as a viable alternative when you spend most of the fight's duration doing B and D - which is doing heavy healing on the tank. Make no mistake, if there's raid damage and if the tank damage isn't significant enough to warrant taking advantage for Beacon double dipping with healing modifiers, then TbtL builds are completely outclassed. If the opposite is true, then TbtL becomes a viable alternative that provides the Paladin with vastly increased survivability.
Beacon doesn't double dip. It just copies the healing from one target to another. I'm also a bit confused about how TbtL builds are outclassed if you don't need the healing modifiers BoL trick, because you cannot have TbtL and BoL at the same time. Basically, what you said is that TbtL is worse than BoL when you need the trick (because you need it), and it's outclassed when you don't, making it plain worse than a BoL build.
TbtL can still use Holy Lights and still get pretty good HPS out of it, rough napkin math assuming all out SP would yield about 8-9HPS while spamming HL; compared to the 9-10k HPS I get on live and excluding the FoL hot and Sacred Shield procs which will be both far stronger as TbtL compared to Beacon spec.
The best way to explain what I mean about being forced to use Flash of Light once 3.2 will hit live is this: on live I barely ever make the decision to cast Flash of Light during a boss fight because I can simply hit my Holy Light button harder and not worry about my mana. I'll use XT as an example: what I do once the heart is killed is spam Holy Light on the tank, top off people with the bombs with Flash/Holy Shock and Holy Light the melee during tantrum - I'm almost OOM by the time the fight ends. Under 3.2 circumstances, I'd be forced to use Flash of Light to keep up with mana when everything is under control and when the tank is using cooldowns because it would be almost impossible to make up for the 500MP5 nerf from Illumination/Divine Intellect/Replenishment. In other words, I'd have to conserve mana by playing smart.
And I don't see many reasons to self case Beacon in 3.2 - worst case scenario would be to Beacon the tank and spam yourself to benefit from Divinity.
I think you might be mistaken. Don't forget you lose both Light's Grace and Judgements of the Pure when speccing for TbtL. As an anecdotal example, in my gear (gemmed for int in 15 sockets), not raid buffed in any way, I get ~8.7k HPS with a normal deep holy spec, vs 5.8k HPS from TbtL. Even assuming you do socket spell power in all sockets, 285 spell power is not going to make up for the difference. And you lose some mana regen as well, from the 2% crit you lose (not to mention the one you lose from not socketing intellect) and divine illumination. I've yet to see any argument about why I would use TbtL except more survivability.
07/19/09, 11:50 PM
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