First of all, sorry for my poor english, and for avoiding current discussion.
I´ve updated RAWR today and I´m a little bit lost: previously sapphyre owl was great on my equipment, but now it seems to be weaker than blue trinkets.
I don't think that building your entire gearing around just spamming HL non stop blindly while screaming for innervates is the way to go. IMO, you should be self sufficient and not be screaming for innervates except in extreme situations. If you need constant innervates, you aren't managing your mana pool correctly, you are not bringing enough healers to the fight, your raid is taking avoidable damage, etc. Plus, a holy pally constantly needing innervates is blowing a raid resource that can be used for other things. For one thing, boomkins usually seem to need to innervate themselves on most cooldowns, if you ask a resto druid for an innervate, you are basically asking them to give up the equivalent of 3 divine pleas.
The hardest hard modes require that kind of healing because of the damage output. Nobody said anything about spamming HL stupidly. Algalon damage is unavoidable you're kidding yourself otherwise. Risking Divine Pleas can mean death on the tank, or raid members, the damage output is that high. Seal of wisdom abuse is also minimal because you are essentially chain casting a healing spell. Look at the ToC25 HM damage, its scaled much higher than the regular modes, and the healing output will have to be the same.
If your druids are not using their innervates on someone what good are they? Blowing a raid resource that will be used on what? Each and every innervate should be maxxed out for that encounter, whether it be on a healer, or a boomkin.
It's not an issue of padding meters either, your job is the be the best healer possible.
And FYI, Innervates restore about 8000 mana, Divine Plea restores approx 9000.
And FYI, Innervates restore about 8000 mana, Divine Plea restores approx 9000.
For DP to restore 9k mana, you need to have a 36k mana pool and get the full duration of Plea - which you can't always do on the super-intensive fights because you can't afford 12 seconds at half power. On those fights it's more common to get 10% mana back than 25%. Innervate restores 8k mana no matter the size of your mana pool, and gives no drawback; it's worth twice as much or more than Divine Plea when we're pushing hard.
Using Hand of sacrifice often means you can plea (at least for some ticks) every 2 min.
Assuming you are standing in melee range of the boss for SoW procs, then using HoS on the tank + casting holy light on yourself results in:
assume 100 DPS to tank
assume 130 HPS from you (pre-plea)
Now 70 DPS to tank
and 65 HPS from beacon, but also 6.5 HPS from glyph of holy light.
= 71.5 HPS from you.
Which will stop the tank from spiking too low while your plea ticks. You might have to cancel your plea after ~6-9s though if the tank takes too many hits and the effect breaks.
If you have specced for Blessed hands, its even more effective. (does anyone know if it increases the % of your max HP you can redirect, or does it only increase the 30% to 40%?)
Tl;DR as long as you are getting about 30% over-heal on the tank you can safely plea + HoSac the tank for some mana regen.
For DP to restore 9k mana, you need to have a 36k mana pool and get the full duration of Plea - which you can't always do on the super-intensive fights because you can't afford 12 seconds at half power. On those fights it's more common to get 10% mana back than 25%. Innervate restores 8k mana no matter the size of your mana pool, and gives no drawback; it's worth twice as much or more than Divine Plea when we're pushing hard.
I'm going to disagree on this one. I have 36.7k mana raid buffed, and I don't typically cancel pleas. Even on fights like algalon. For algalon, we just call out that we're plea'ing on vent and we either pop a sac or some other defensive cooldown. When tanks die on us during Algalon it's because all of us have to move out of a smash, not because we're plea'ing.
So I've been doing ToC-25 and getting some 245 items, but have been holding off on equipping them due to T8 had holy pallys gear for haste/MP5 instead of haste/crit like back in T7. But looking at all the loot from both ToC-25 and ToC-25 Heroic, the plate healing gear is nothing but haste/crit. I would stick with my T8 and haste/MP5 gear, but the stat increase from the 245/258 gear is just too good to pass up. I do remember in this thread somewhere a while back someone saying that even with the Illumination nerf, the mana regen from crit is still not super terrible compared to the mana regen from MP5? Just want to get some opinions from people out there (that has been using 245 gear preferably) on how their mana is doing (and how much MP5 do you try to maintain with the new haste/crit stuff).
So I've been doing ToC-25 and getting some 245 items, but have been holding off on equipping them due to T8 had holy pallys gear for haste/MP5 instead of haste/crit like back in T7. But looking at all the loot from both ToC-25 and ToC-25 Heroic, the plate healing gear is nothing but haste/crit. I would stick with my T8 and haste/MP5 gear, but the stat increase from the 245/258 gear is just too good to pass up. I do remember in this thread somewhere a while back someone saying that even with the Illumination nerf, the mana regen from crit is still not super terrible compared to the mana regen from MP5? Just want to get some opinions from people out there (that has been using 245 gear preferably) on how their mana is doing (and how much MP5 do you try to maintain with the new haste/crit stuff).
Forgive me if this is no help, as I have not yet had the opportunity to do 25 man hard modes (obviously the core of most of the discussion). However, after mashing out a list of personal opinion Best in Slot gear from what I currently have or will have access to (25 man normal, 10 man heroic+tribute), I've come up with the following stats, assuming Int gems in all sockets except for meta requirements (SP/Int, MP5/Int for those):
- 32,659 base mana
- 2593 spell power
- 27.43% base critical hit (Divine Sac spec)
- 21.16% haste
- 221 MP5 while casting
Note that these numbers are with Mining / Blacksmithing (so no JC). Whether this is respectable and will work for the content, obviously I can't be too sure. But more to the point, this is with only 3 pieces of MP5/Crit gear, 4 pieces of MP5/Haste, and the rest being Haste/Crit.
I don't believe an extra 200 MP5 while casting, at the cost of losing more than just soft capped Haste, is worth it.
Adding in 25 man heroic loot accentuates everything but haste by just short of an approximate factor of 3 (basically 3k mana, 300 SP, 3% crit, and 30 MP5).
After taking a look at TOC healing gear, I've found that if you are looking for haste/mp5 itemization you have to take a loot at quite a few mail items. Granted, some slots like boots and belt don't have a haste/mp5 counterpart at all in TOC, and you will have to use crafted chest and bracers. If you will have access to 258 content, though, I wouldn't spend resources on crafted items just yet.
So I've been doing ToC-25 and getting some 245 items, but have been holding off on equipping them due to T8 had holy pallys gear for haste/MP5 instead of haste/crit like back in T7. But looking at all the loot from both ToC-25 and ToC-25 Heroic, the plate healing gear is nothing but haste/crit. I would stick with my T8 and haste/MP5 gear, but the stat increase from the 245/258 gear is just too good to pass up. I do remember in this thread somewhere a while back someone saying that even with the Illumination nerf, the mana regen from crit is still not super terrible compared to the mana regen from MP5? Just want to get some opinions from people out there (that has been using 245 gear preferably) on how their mana is doing (and how much MP5 do you try to maintain with the new haste/crit stuff).
For my intents and purposes, Haste/mp5 is strictly better than Haste/crit, as it provides more regen, and I cannot rely on crit as an effective output amplifier. The tier bonuses are also so sub-par that I wouldn't bother to get them, since they're itemised poorly. The real problem is the lack of haste/mp5 pieces around, leaving us far below the haste cap - right now I'm at the cap, but that's with a lot of crit/haste pieces which I hope to replace.
Now I've been looking at the mail upgrades in ToC as a source for haste/mp5 gear. With every piece of 245 gear I can get (+thorim hard shoulders) I managed to make around 670 haste which would be enough. However, I've ignored my whole set and I suspect that I have invaded into the resto shaman best in slot lists:
Given that most coliseum plate items are itemised with crit/mp5 would it be a viable gearing strategy/compromise to fill the sockets with 10 haste 5 mp5 gems to compensate for the loss in haste? Or is gemming 20 int still the best way to go?
Erm, I just composed BiS gear in RAWR using only plate items in armor slots and it gave 805 haste without any haste gemming. That is MORE then needed for the soft cap. However I have to agree that if you ignore hard mode loot completely then you would have a tad low haste despite the fact that only 2 items (plus trinkets) do not have haste on them.
Erm, I just composed BiS gear in RAWR using only plate items in armor slots and it gave 805 haste without any haste gemming. That is MORE then needed for the soft cap. However I have to agree that if you ignore hard mode loot completely then you would have a tad low haste despite the fact that only 2 items (plus trinkets) do not have haste on them.
That's because you're using Haste/crit gear, which I'd say is the current worst out of all 3 combinations. If you don't count all the haste/crit, it'll be a lot less.
I read about the over itemization of the [Solace of the Defeated] and that it was incorrectly an equip effect rather than an on use effect like [Meteorite Crystal] however 75mp5 (tool tip for the item is not updated) to 20 stacks is a hell of a lot more than 16mp5 to 8 stacks. So I would agree it is without a doubt over itemized but I don't think the mp5 portion was intended to be an on use effect when there are similar trinkets with ten fold the on use effect (1500mp5 at 20 stacks) which is easily reached 10-15s into the use.
I was also curious, from my math mp5 is almost three times the regen as crit is now spamming our highest costing heal every 1.5s, so it's a clear winner when it comes to regen. But I don't know if we have forgotten or it is so minor, but our crits heal for 50% more as well. How much is 45.91 crit rating worth throughput wise? Is the stat really as bad as Rawr and people are claiming it is now?
That's because you're using Haste/crit gear, which I'd say is the current worst out of all 3 combinations. If you don't count all the haste/crit, it'll be a lot less.
How do you figure Haste/Crit is the worst of the three types of gear? With crit's value down dramatically, I think haste has popped into #1 place until soft-cap, followed by MP5. That leaves MP5/Haste first, Crit/Haste second, and Crit/MP5 last.
As a means of getting to soft-capped haste, it seems Crit/Haste is very viable.
How do you figure Haste/Crit is the worst of the three types of gear? With crit's value down dramatically, I think haste has popped into #1 place until soft-cap, followed by MP5. That leaves MP5/Haste first, Crit/Haste second, and Crit/MP5 last.
As a means of getting to soft-capped haste, it seems Crit/Haste is very viable.
The logic goes like this :
Since you can't depend on crit as an output stat, I'd much rather think of crit purely in regen terms. Since MP/5 is superior to crit in regen, Haste/mp5 is strictly superior to haste/crit. For every item of haste/crit you have, in most situations a haste/mp5 instead would be preferable.
However, on some fights and indeed with the nerfs to our regen, additional regen is needed. So for regen purposes, crit/mp5 is superior to haste/crit and haste mp/5 gear.
As such, I think it would be preferable if we filled out the haste cap with haste/mp5 instead of haste/crit, dipping into mail if we have to, then wear crit/mp5 on the rest of the slots.
Since you can't depend on crit as an output stat, I'd much rather think of crit purely in regen terms. Since MP/5 is superior to crit in regen, Haste/mp5 is strictly superior to haste/crit. For every item of haste/crit you have, in most situations a haste/mp5 instead would be preferable.
However, on some fights and indeed with the nerfs to our regen, additional regen is needed. So for regen purposes, crit/mp5 is superior to haste/crit and haste mp/5 gear.
As such, I think it would be preferable if we filled out the haste cap with haste/mp5 instead of haste/crit, dipping into mail if we have to, then wear crit/mp5 on the rest of the slots.
I do follow your logic, but I was unaware there were enough pieces of Haste/MP5 gear to properly fill out the soft cap without using Haste/Crit gear. I see a pair of mail legs and a helmet that can be used, but I'm seeing nothing for shoulders, neck, back, belt, feet, weapon, or shield, without having to remain in Ulduar gear (maybe I just missed some stuff?). And I don't believe MP5 is a valuable enough stat to stay in lower level gear at the cost of other stats, including Intellect.
My mindset was still in set-form though, so I did miss the helmet and legs at first. I'll try putting those in and see where I get.
So the haste soft cap is 676, if we exceed this the GCD is still 1 second so our FoL are 1 sec but HL will still reduce in cast time, correct?
yes and no. the HL will continue to be reduced and the FoL will continue to be reduced, but you will run into interference with the GCD causing more problems than its worth. So really hitting a 1 sec FoL is where you want to sit, any more haste becomes more detrimental than beneficial.
yes and no. the HL will continue to be reduced and the FoL will continue to be reduced, but you will run into interference with the GCD causing more problems than its worth. So really hitting a 1 sec FoL is where you want to sit, any more haste becomes more detrimental than beneficial.
"Interference with the GCD"? "Haste becomes detrimental"? Not hardly. :P Up to 676 haste rating, haste will make all your spells cast faster; after the soft cap, haste only benefits Holy Light. That's it, plain and simple. Haste benefits you less after 676, but it doesn't become detrimental or cause interference any more than casting an instant does.
So the haste soft cap is 676, if we exceed this the GCD is still 1 second so our FoL are 1 sec but HL will still reduce in cast time, correct?
Pretty much you can only cast a maximum of one spell per second at and after the soft haste cap, so sure your FoL could be 0.6s with heroism, but over a spand of 10s you can only cast 10 FoLs. HL will take a lot more haste than 676 to drop it to or below 1s so there is still benefit to haste after the soft haste cap.
Pretty much you can only cast a maximum of one spell per second at and after the soft haste cap, so sure your FoL could be 0.6s with heroism, but over a spand of 10s you can only cast 10 FoLs. HL will take a lot more haste than 676 to drop it to or below 1s so there is still benefit to haste after the soft haste cap.
I would have to somewhat argue against this point. Sure, there will be *benefit* to having more haste than the soft cap as far as HL goes. However, try it out with being soft-capped on haste, and using the old Egg trinket (the 500 haste proc). When that proc goes off and your haste it at like 1200, it will barely take any more time off the HL cast time (like 0.03 seconds off with the 500 extra haste? Something like that, I'll have to try it out again tonight to get the exact number, but I just remember it was something very insignificant). Definitely not worth it.
I'm going to disagree on this one. I have 36.7k mana raid buffed, and I don't typically cancel pleas. Even on fights like algalon. For algalon, we just call out that we're plea'ing on vent and we either pop a sac or some other defensive cooldown. When tanks die on us during Algalon it's because all of us have to move out of a smash, not because we're plea'ing.
This. It comes down to communication. We take full duration pleas with a macro communicating to healers that for the next 15 sec, we'll need additional help. Its never an issue.
I would have to somewhat argue against this point. Sure, there will be *benefit* to having more haste than the soft cap as far as HL goes. However, try it out with being soft-capped on haste, and using the old Egg trinket (the 500 haste proc). When that proc goes off and your haste it at like 1200, it will barely take any more time off the HL cast time (like 0.03 seconds off with the 500 extra haste? Something like that, I'll have to try it out again tonight to get the exact number, but I just remember it was something very insignificant). Definitely not worth it.
Actually this is just how haste scales -- it has nothing to do with the soft-cap. The more haste you acquire, the less each point will 'hasten' the cast time of your spells, however each point of haste will provide the same increase to the number of spells you can cast in a given time period.
From Endo's guide,
Originally Posted by Endoscient
Haste Rating
Increases how fast your heals cast, but they cost the same amount of healing per mana. 10% Spell Haste does not mean your spells cast 10% faster, rather it means in a given time period you will cast 10% more spells. So the cast time after haste is calculated by (Base Cast Time)/(1 + Spell Haste). The more haste you get the less cast time it will reduce, but it will increase how many spells you can cast by the same amount. Its important to note that all haste effects (Wrath of Air, Sanc Ret, JotP, and Gear) stack multiplicatively. So with all of them you only need 20.6% haste from gear to get haste soft capped (50%, for 1sec GCDs). 100 Spell Haste at 80 will give you 3% haste. With the amount of mana we have now and that people rarely die if a HL reaches them. Haste increases the chance that HL will reach them in time, and increase the amount we can put out.
Saying that it's not worth it is somewhat misleading. If your sole goal stacking haste is to get a faster spell, then yes it has diminishing returns, but haste will provide a linear increase in throughput no matter how much you have, until you reach a 1 second cast time.
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That's because you're using Haste/crit gear, which I'd say is the current worst out of all 3 combinations. If you don't count all the haste/crit, it'll be a lot less.
I use what RAWR shows me as BiS for average 6min fight (plate only). Be it haste/mp5, crit/mp5 or haste/crit. You have to agree, than iLvL 258 haste/crit item may be better than iLvL 245 haste/mp5 item simply due to bigger budget.
Regen wise, you get more mp5 from int, than the equivilant amount of mp5 (such as you'd find on gems) in a raid situation.
Assuming of course, that you're judging, and divine plea'ing on cooldown ( which you may not find optimal in your raid setting, but does lead to our highest hps. )
Lets take for instance the current values of epic gems:
20 intellect. ( 22 int through talents, 24 with kings. )
now 24 intellect is worth 360 mana. ( 24x15 )
360 mana, is worth 7.5mp5 if you divine plea on cooldown. ( 360 divided by 25 gives mana per minute. thus divided by 60, and times 5 gives mp5. )
360 mana is worth 3.6 mp5 with replenishment ( replenishment gives 1% mana, every 5 seconds. )
As such, a 20 intellect gem is worth at least 11.1 mp5 ( as well as 4.8 spell power, and a little bit of crit. ) And this is without even trying to work out the mana you'll get back from seal of wisdom procs. Wheras the equivilant mp5 gem, is only 10 mp5.
So if you're wanting to run with haste/mp5 gems, I'd advise you to alternate between 20 haste, and 20 int gems instead.
Also remember that the prismatic +10 all stats gem, the nightmare's tear counts as all colours. This means that this single gem alone, will meet all the requirements to your met gem, leaving you free to flood every single other slot in your gear with yellow, or red gems of your choice.
09/01/09, 10:46 AM
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