It seems like Judgement is going to proc Seal of Wisdom in 3.2. Currently on the PTR Judgements proc seals even at 40 yards. Except Seal of Wisdom is broken currently even while meleeing (along with many other procs), and doesn't proc at all. Presumably it will proc though if all of non broken Seals are proccing from Judgement. If it does that has some interesting implications.
1) Pretty much make GSoW the Glyph to choose.
2) Weapon Speed could make a difference. Last I heard SoW was proc rate was 15 ppm, but I don't think it was ever rigorously tested. Which would make slower weapons return more mana.
Assuming 15 ppm that is calculated after haste (like SoC was), a 1.5 attack speed and 32000 mana, I would get an average of 480 mana returned per judge. Not enough to make you want to judge on cooldown, but if you are keeping up JoW over a 8 minute fight it is an extra 11,520 mana.
I'm wondering if there's not a better way to track SS and Beacon, given how important they have become in 3.2. As well, does the SS-Hot show up as its own separate buff that can be added to Grid, or are we going to have to track it differently?
I highly recommend BeaconCountdown - Addons - Curse. I prefer this over any others at the moment, because it gives an audible tick each second that is left(pre-set to whatever you want, default is 7) on both your Beacon/SS as well as a flashing warning on your screen.
It should help anyone keep a close to 100% uptime on SS.
I completely agree with you, this mechanic needs to be part of the holy tree and not a set bonus. Who knows, we may actually even see it in the next talent revamp with the upcoming expac.
I'm really hoping that they allow the FoL HoT to stack and continuously roll as opposed to resetting with ever FoL cast. I can kind of see an interesting game of keeping track of big FoL crits to maintain a rather large HoT on the tank, but then I can't help but think that mechanic would have worked much better with Holy Shock as its not cast as often. I think a better developmental direction would be to add this mechanic to HS and increase the spell coefficients of FoL to make it slightly more inline with HL.
We could also use a talent to tie in HL to HS/FoL/SS but thats asking for extra dessert at this point.
If they put the 4pT9 into a talent for us, perhaps they'd change the actual set bonus to allow our HoT to stack and/or roll?
There would be the issues of balancing of course.. Using the usual PVP Holy glove bonus would add even more to FoL, and if the HoT stacks or rolls then Holydins would be nigh unkillable in PVP
Now, as far as the libram goes, it's a nice boost to SP but it still doesn't compare for HL usage the way Renewal does. It does tie in with how we'll be using HL a little less, but maybe enough to have good uptime on it. We could still use another way to tie our healing spells together besides the clunky HS crit to HL or FOL..
Returning 480 mana per judge is 300 mp5 with 2/2 Improved Judgement and 240 mp5 without. That is *plenty* to make me want to judge on cooldown whenever possible. That's practically enough to offset the entire replenishment // divine intellect nerf. Obviously it'll come at a steep cost but let's be honest, what else are you going to cast when you have to move?
what else are you going to cast when you have to move?
Holy Shock and refreshing Beacon/SS. I wouldn't feel safe judging on cooldown in a raid, but normally I feel safe doing every 30-40 seconds. Still, it is a great buff towards adding skill to Holy (knowing when it is safe to Judge).
Millions of words are written annually purporting to tell how to beat the races, whereas the best possible advice on the subject is found in the three monosyllables: 'Do not try.'
Returning 480 mana per judge is 300 mp5 with 2/2 Improved Judgement and 240 mp5 without. That is *plenty* to make me want to judge on cooldown whenever possible. That's practically enough to offset the entire replenishment // divine intellect nerf. Obviously it'll come at a steep cost but let's be honest, what else are you going to cast when you have to move?
I believe PPM is calculated before haste buffs, in which case:
1.8 speed healer weapon = 0.45% proc chance.
Figure maybe 36k buffed mana? Maybe more with new epic gems since we're gaining 4 Int on every gem slot on top of the boosted ilevel stats from T9.5 (esp Heroic lvl 258 ones).
45% proc chance with SoW restoring 1,440 mana = ~648 mana per Judgement on average.
But don't forget to take JoW into account as well which is 2% of base mana and restores 87 mana per proc. I have no idea what the proc rate is on JoW, but let's say 50% for argument's sake. Brings that to ~692 mana restored on Judgements.
Judgement costs 220 mana I think? 200 with the 10% cost reduction in Ret. So a net gain of ~492 mana every time you Judge a boss (with JoW up on it already). Total of 49.2 Mp5 when Judging on cooldown, 61.5 with the -2s reduction talents. But that basically means you're spamming Judgements every 8s and not doing a hell of a lot of healing.
If you Judge on average every 20s which is probably more realistic...it's 25 Mp5. Small gain, but a gain nonetheless.
Why not buff JoL via talents in deep holy. JoL could potentially be a nice buff to our aoe healing, and having it buffed via talents would make it so its preferred to be casted by Holy paladins instead of rets or prots. It seems kinda weird that we would prefere to have other specs keep up the HEALING judgment than holy, while we are keeping mana judgments up. Let rets and prots do mana, and we do the healing...
Judgement costs 220 mana I think? 200 with the 10% cost reduction in Ret. So a net gain of ~492 mana every time you Judge a boss (with JoW up on it already). Total of 49.2 Mp5 when Judging on cooldown, 61.5 with the -2s reduction talents. But that basically means you're spamming Judgements every 8s and not doing a hell of a lot of healing.
If you Judge on average every 20s which is probably more realistic...it's 25 Mp5. Small gain, but a gain nonetheless.
Those numbers are actually mana per second. If you want mp5, multiply by 5. :-)
246 mp5 if judged on CD without Judgement CD reduction, 307.5 mp5 with an 8 second cooldown, 125 if judged every 20 seconds. It's a huge gain, if you ask me.
Edit: On the other hand, this is probably related to the AoW change and not intended. I doubt they would've nerfed our regen, saying it's way too good, then give us something to offset that almost completely.
How much time exactly does the latency leave you to decide whether to cancel the cast or not?
Imagine a paladin who spams the following macro once every global cooldown:
/stopcasting
/use Holy Light
As long as he spams it, a Holy Light is constantly in the pipe, but it doesn't actually ever resolve.
The decision he needs to make, therefore is when to not cancel the cast.
In order for him to make this decision, the game must register a "tank got hit for damage" event from the server, it needs to be reflected on the player's UI, and then the player needs some time to actually make the decision and stay his finger from hitting that button. All in 1 GCD's worth of time.
Does not seem completely unviable to me, but how much does latency play into all of this?
Am i correct in thinking that it only appears in the delay between the server firing the event of tank taking damage, and the game catching that event?
I am usually running with ~250 ms latency. Does it mean, that this leaves me with ~750ms to decide whether i want to proceed with the cast or cancel it?
That would completely unravel the JoL normalization in 3.2
Frankly if they were going to do something like that they would simply had it scale only with SP.
The reason behind the normalization in 3.2 is likely because rets are healing for 5-8k EHPS on some bosses. That is clearly not working as intented. We dont have that many healing spells and JoL is a completely unique way of healing. No other healing classes has a spell like that, so why not take that idea and put it into something useful. They could make it scale with SP, but they could also add some worthwile talents in the holy tree when they reduce Illumination to a 3 pt. talent That could also create some great synergy with the other judgment related talents and actually make the mid-top end talents more desirable.
Combining judgement heals with direct heals is IMO a fun and aggresive way of healing.
Those numbers are actually mana per second. If you want mp5, multiply by 5. :-)
246 mp5 if judged on CD without Judgement CD reduction, 307.5 mp5 with an 8 second cooldown, 125 if judged every 20 seconds. It's a huge gain, if you ask me.
Edit: On the other hand, this is probably related to the AoW change and not intended. I doubt they would've nerfed our regen, saying it's way too good, then give us something to offset that almost completely.
Wow...sick at home with flu and fever, can I blame it on that for now?
Does not seem completely unviable to me, but how much does latency play into all of this?
Am i correct in thinking that it only appears in the delay between the server firing the event of tank taking damage, and the game catching that event?
I am usually running with ~250 ms latency. Does it mean, that this leaves me with ~750ms to decide whether i want to proceed with the cast or cancel it?
If you time your heals to sync with the mob's swing timer, leaving yourself a, say, 500ms window in which to decide if you want to cancel or not, then you should be fine. Most bosses don't have a swing timer lower than 1.8, so you should have plenty (.3-.5, depending on your haste) of time to start another cast so that it lands after the swing timer, even if you let the heal land.
Edit: On the other hand, this is probably related to the AoW change and not intended. I doubt they would've nerfed our regen, saying it's way too good, then give us something to offset that almost completely.
No it is not. It is related to this patch note.
"Judgements: Some of these attacks were considered ranged and some melee. They are all now considered melee attacks that can't be dodged, parried or blocked."
Since all melee attacks proc seals. Which means that it is intended.
"Judgements: Some of these attacks were considered ranged and some melee. They are all now considered melee attacks that can't be dodged, parried or blocked."
Since all melee attacks proc seals. Which means that it is intended.
Well that brings me from being kind of unhappy about the patch changes to being very happy. I wonder if we should go back to the idea of trying to get SP/crit/haste gear then, because we'd have enough regen without the mp5.
"Judgements: Some of these attacks were considered ranged and some melee. They are all now considered melee attacks that can't be dodged, parried or blocked."
Since all melee attacks proc seals. Which means that it is intended.
Yeah, but, wasn't that done because of Art of War? At least that's how I understood it. Also, what I actually meant was "I don't think they realised the implications of making judgements behave as melee attacks when it comes to SoW".
I really cannot imagine that when 3.2 hits, SoW will be the way it is now. In a way, it is comparable to the 5 second rule regarding to priests and druids. They toned that regeneration down because it was hard to balance around it. Once you gave a priest or a druid enough time where they could go without casting a spell with mana cost, they gained a significant amounts of mana.
It is very parallel with holy Paladins and SoW. If there is a time light on healing (15, 20 seconds are enough) or if another healer can ramp up and free you up for a short period, you gain large amounts of mana back just meleeing a mob (at least here has to be a mob; Mimiron phase changes for example do not qualify). Given that judgements now count as melee attacks, this regen is even raised, which is also a contradiction to tuning down holy paladin mana regen.
I really do think that SoW is out of place, because it makes your available mana fluctuate too much (besides the fact that I feel targetting enemy targets as a healer regularly is quite a clunky mechanic, but that's just personal dislike). It is very hard to balance, because the amount of hits you get off varies greatly from fight to fight, just like OO5SR mana regeneration did.
Last edited by TimWischmeier : 07/01/09 at 3:30 PM.
Reason: Grammar. How can one human leave so many mistakes in a few sentences even after reading them twice?
I really cannot imagine that when 3.2 hits, SoW will be the way it is now. In a way, it is comparable to the 5 second rule regarding to priests and druids. They toned that regeneration down because it was hard to balance around it. Once you gave a priest or a druid enough time where they could go without casting a spell with mana cost, they gained a significant amounts of mana.
It is very parallel with holy Paladins and SoW. If there is a time light on healing (15, 20 seconds are enough) or if another healer can ramp up and free you up for a short period, you gain large amounts of mana back just meleeing a mob (at least here has to be a mob; Mimiron phase changes for example do not qualify). Given that judgements now count as melee attacks, this regen is even raised, which is also a contradiction to tuning down holy paladin mana regen.
I really do think that SoW is out of place, because it makes your available mana fluctuate too much (besides the fact that I feel targetting enemy targets as a healer regularly is quite a clunky mechanic, but that's just personal dislike). It is very hard to balance, because the amount of hits you get off varies greatly from fight to fight, just like OO5SR mana regeneration did.
It may go through or it may not, but at least this form of Judgment-based mana regen is a bit more situational. Most of our fights revolved around spamming HL without much thought simply because our mana returns from Illumination were so good. There were few, if any, fights that required us to melee to restore mana from SoW. From the direction Blizzard is going, it seems they are saying, "You guys have it too easy, at least we have to think of some other mechanic to make you guys work for your mana regen, rather than simply have it due to a single talent."
At least with the SoW judgement mana regen it is more situational. There are some fights where you can afford to drop a judgment to gain the mana, and there are other fights where you simply do not have time and have to keep the tank up constantly or there is a heavy AoE which you cannot afford to get caught up in. As it stood, all that was required of us was to, "find the heal button" to get the majority of our mana returns, which in no way hamstrung us. Now it seems they want more of a "healing rotation" feel with the SS/FoL synergy, and furthermore gives us more incentive to actually apply JoW frequently aside from the 15% haste every X seconds in Holy.
That being said, this could be a huge oversight and be in contradiction in Blizzard logic, but it wouldn't certainly be the first time.
There isn't any discussion of the removal of the "Light's Beacon" buff in this thread, which I find interesting. Currently, I primarily monitor Beacon of Light, Light's Beacon, Guardian Spirit, and Sacred Shield with corner indicators in Grid (monitor time on my Beacon/Shield with Dotimers and available cooldowns with Tellmewhen).
These little corner icons tell me who I can heal that will also heal the beacon, who will receive extra healing from Guardian Spirit when I heal them, and whether putting a Beacon on someone will override another Holy Paladin's beacon. I'm frequently assigned to heal tank 1 and beacon tank 2 and then find - due to the "Light's Beacon" buff, that tank 1 is not in range of tank 2 such that the beacon will be not effective - in which case I'll need to keep an eye on tank 2 and toss Holy Shocks/Flashes at tank 2 to make sure he stays alive. I can't guess what the spread of a raid will be in the new raid instance, but in many of the Ulduar fights, there is a lot of spread and many people are frequently out of range of the beaconed target.
Does anyone know of any reason why the Light's Beacon buff is being removed? Clearly it isn't a completely reliable tool, since if there are two Beacons from two Holy Paladins - there might people people in range of beacon A and not in range of beacon B. But it is still a useful tool.
Also, why would any healer really have a "rotation" per se? I've seen a number of people talking about the "rotation". Don't you need to choose the best spell at the time given the circumstances - while keeping as much uptime as possible on Sacred Shield, Beacon of Light, and Judgements of the Pure? While for highest throughput, the best choice is to stand still and spam Holy Light, that isn't always reasonable or needed in a given situation. If spamming Holy Light, Sacred Shield doesn't do a whole lot and even beacon is probably superfluous in 3.1 (but amazing in 3.2).
It also isn't always necessary to spam Holy Light, depending on how healing is set up in your raid. We haven't really worked on hard modes in 25-man (only in 10-man). Therefore, my frame of reference is skewed. Holy Light spam is completely unecessary, even for keeping up the tank alone, in pretty much any of the regular-mode fights (except Mimiron Phase 2 or perhaps the end of Phase 2 Thorim - I can't speak to Phase 3 Yogg, since we haven't gotten much into that). Regardless of whether or not it's higher HPS, I don't see the point of spamming Holy Light when Flash of Light is perfectly able to keep up that same target (and still overheals by 60%) when combined with Sacred Shield and Holy Shock.
While in 10-man, I definitely spam Holy Light in certain hardmodes - such as Thorim phase 2. Therefore, this Holy Light spamming paradigm really should only apply to certain situations. Is there a point (in 3.1) in spamming Holy Light when the target isn't taking enough damage to warrant it? I can perhaps see a point in 3.2 when overhealing applied to a target will still heal the tank, but it would still be ridiculous if flash + holy shock can keep everyone alive.
So really, we're talking about a subset of fights - generally hardmode, when the mana regen/throughput issue bears its head. Thorim hardmode is one of them. It sounds like Iron Council hardmode may be another? And given what Mim is like on regular, I'd guess Mimiron hard mode to be a third and XT hard mode a fourth. General Vezax/Hodir hard modes are more dps races. I haven't seen anyone say that the changes in 3.2 will clearly make fulfillment of the typical paladin role in these situations, impossible. It will make the playstyle different.
The real issue is how to adjust for the decline in mana regen in situations where Holy Light spam is currently the norm. Can the target be healed effectively using a combination of spells? Does it require that 2 healers be assigned to heal that target (or 2 holy paladins to beacon that target)? Analysis of the incoming damage on Thorim hardmode (such as the one provided in a previous post) is helpful in making these types of conclusions. The question isn't necessarily "What do I need to do so I can continue spamming Holy Light?" it's "Given my new pack of spells and the typical make-up of my raid - what's the best way to keep all the people in it alive?" A sidebar question is whether or not you do less or more healing overall with this new pack of spells. Another important question, of course, is whether this shift also requires a shift in stat relativity and priority.
I'd guess that Holy Light spam would have been higher HPS in BC than Flash spam - but it was impossible to achieve (I raided on a different class in BC).
The reason the icon of buff was removed was because the range was increased to 60 yards, which Blizzard felt was a big enough radius where it simply was no longer required to track as most encounters will fall within that radius to effectively heal just about anyone. They may re-instate the buff or possibly increase the range slightly further, but I can only see that happening if they make encounters larger in size. I understand the convenience that displaying the buff gives as an instant range-check in combination with Grid, but the idea is to no longer have to worry about that component.
As for a "rotation" it isn't much different than Priests, suffice to say that between PW:S and Penance they have abilities that they weave into a standard "rotation" if you will. Rotation isn't really the best word, but it most accurately reflects the type of cooldown/ability management system that we are being more pushed towards. There will always be light healing and heavy healing. The idea is to give us something to do during light healing to better prepare for the heavy phases (SS, FoL HoT, & Haste/mana regen from judgments).
I really cannot imagine that when 3.2 hits, SoW will be the way it is now. In a way, it is comparable to the 5 second rule regarding to priests and druids. They toned that regeneration down because it was hard to balance around it. Once you gave a priest or a druid enough time where they could go without casting a spell with mana cost, they gained a significant amounts of mana.
It is very parallel with holy Paladins and SoW. If there is a time light on healing (15, 20 seconds are enough) or if another healer can ramp up and free you up for a short period, you gain large amounts of mana back just meleeing a mob (at least here has to be a mob; Mimiron phase changes for example do not qualify). Given that judgements now count as melee attacks, this regen is even raised, which is also a contradiction to tuning down holy paladin mana regen.
I really do think that SoW is out of place, because it makes your available mana fluctuate too much (besides the fact that I feel targetting enemy targets as a healer regularly is quite a clunky mechanic, but that's just personal dislike). It is very hard to balance, because the amount of hits you get off varies greatly from fight to fight, just like OO5SR mana regeneration did.
Actually you just need to do this:
HL bomb
wait ~1s before beginning next HL
HL bomb
Try it out on a dummy to get your timing down, you're basically just aiming to start casting the next HL in (buffed swing timer - latency) after the previous cast.
It may not be chain casting, but with top end gear it's infinitely sustainable. Toss in a HS + (hopefully) IoL'd FoL cast in between to heal while you continuously swing.
Also get a swing timer mod like Quartz.
Combat log will look something like this:
00:00.00 Holy Light heals you for 16,798 (critical)
00:00.25 You gain 383 mana from your Illumination
00:01.05 You deal 324 damage to X
00:01.50 You gain 1300 mana from Seal of Wisdom
00:01.55 You gain 88 mana from Judgement of Wisdom
00:02.30 Holy Light heals you for 11,562
Even in 3.2, you just gained 670 while casting Holy Lights and all you have to do is wait ~1s after an HL lands before you cast the next one.
Obviously you don't do this in heavy damage situations though!
It is very parallel with holy Paladins and SoW. If there is a time light on healing (15, 20 seconds are enough) or if another healer can ramp up and free you up for a short period, you gain large amounts of mana back just meleeing a mob (at least here has to be a mob; Mimiron phase changes for example do not qualify). Given that judgements now count as melee attacks, this regen is even raised, which is also a contradiction to tuning down holy paladin mana regen.
I think when you're attempting hard modes, especially without hard mode gear, you'll be running as few healers as possible and as many dps as possible. At least using the hard modes in the game currently as a model. In these scenarios, nearly every healer in the raid is already running at near GCD cap and probably can't ramp up to completely cover you not healing for 10-15 seconds. I also don't think the buff is as much as a contradiction as it is an extra carrot to increase judging on bosses or at the very least, remove the mana penalty for maintaining our haste.
I really do think that SoW is out of place, because it makes your available mana fluctuate too much (besides the fact that I feel targetting enemy targets as a healer regularly is quite a clunky mechanic, but that's just personal dislike). It is very hard to balance, because the amount of hits you get off varies greatly from fight to fight, just like OO5SR mana regeneration did.
A gain is a gain and I wouldn't consider that fluctuation. At bare minimum, you will be judging to maintain haste but you'll also be thinking about how to squeeze in extra judgements if a particular boss is mana intensive. This is a good in that holy paladin play is starting to become a thought invoking process.
I think though that the holy tree needs a complete rework and a lot of the elements and some of our glyphs, like both seal ones, need to become core talents. I'd go so far as to say remove illumination entirely and add a mechanic similar to judgements of the wise.
06/30/09, 4:33 PM
That could also create some great synergy with the other judgment related talents and actually make the mid-top end talents more desirable.
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