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Old 10/01/09, 12:39 PM   #931
Malleus
King Hippo
 
Human Paladin
 
Bronze Dragonflight (EU)
Originally Posted by Rataard View Post
The MP5 numbers for using DP every 3 minutes would just be 33% of the DP-on-CD values, no?
No, because the calculations for DP on CD include Replenishment and (sometimes) Arcane Torrent.

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Old 10/01/09, 12:42 PM   #932
arcane309
Glass Joe
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Cho'gall
How important is it to stay near the soft haste cap (676) ?

Is it worth dipping below by no more than 40 under to get upgrades?

There is so much crit/mp5 around that it seems the haste gear ie. belt of the ice burrower , pendant of binding elements, wristwraps of cloudy omen (mail), and bracers of broken bond, not to mention rings....

Also would legs of failing light be the obvious choice in the correct piece to not be tier should you choose to go 4/5 tier 9? Seems like best choice since t9 legs have 0 haste..

Thanks for any and all input.

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Old 10/01/09, 12:49 PM   #933
Sparty
Piston Honda
 
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Human Paladin
 
Stormrage
Originally Posted by Silmeria View Post
Isn't Solace inherently over-budgeted though due to its second proc? The massive difference in mp5 doesn't come as a surprise to me, but I thought it was the general community belief that the trinket was possibly bugged in that its second effect shouldn't be a passive equip with an ICD but rather an on-use proc.

Admittedly, it has yet to be fixed, so I could probably easily believe that it's "working as intended" by now.
It is massively overbudgeted, I think that was found in the ilvl thread. But so are a number of other items like [Illustration of the Dragon Soul] I don't think you can really count on items being nerfed to fill appropriate item budget. And as was pointed out earlier in this thread, These trinkets are currently BiS for both HL and FoL specs.

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Old 10/01/09, 12:54 PM   #934
Rataard
Glass Joe
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Eonar
Originally Posted by Malleus View Post
No, because the calculations for DP on CD include Replenishment and (sometimes) Arcane Torrent.
I think you're misinterpreting what I meant by DP-on-CD. 33% of the mp5 that is gained exclusively from DP. Not using DP on CD doesn't effect any of the mp5 gains from replenishment or torrent.

128 Int -> 154 Int -> 2310 mana
DP Value on CD: 48.1mp5 (2310*.25/12)
Arcane Torrent (If applicable): 5.8mp5(2310*.06/24)
Replenishment: 23.1mp5

DP'ing every 3 min: 16mp5 (2310*.25/36)

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Old 10/01/09, 1:24 PM   #935
Roknroll
Von Kaiser
 
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Human Paladin
 
Tichondrius
Originally Posted by DiamondTear View Post
I think of haste as something that helps my heals land in time. Assuming you are using only HL, and globals for SS, BoL and DP, you won't end up using much more than 2-3 instant casts in a minute. Even after you have hit the soft cap, haste will lower the time it takes for your heal to land after you used an instant (this is usually when tanks die). Haste is only marginally worse after hitting the soft cap.
Fully raid buffed, we have so much haste that it starts to get into the area where you can't really consider it a stat that helps spells land earlier. Even at low levels of haste, say 300, you're at 35.8% total haste for a HL cast time of 1.47 seconds. Adding 100 haste puts you at 39.6% total haste for a HL cast time of 1.43 seconds. That's a lot of haste just added for only a 0.04 second reduction in cast time. Not something you are going to really notice if you are looking for your heals to land earlier. Haste is really more of a throughput stat, where you are spamming as many heals as you can over a period of time. That small reduction in cast time or GCD adds up to an overall increase in healing output over the course of a fight.

As for the soft cap, I don't really see any harm in going over it. Even when the GCD and FoL gets capped at 1 second, you still are dealing with human and computer latency. Assuming a general 0.1 second lag, a 0.9 second FoL cast isn't going to get wasted too much on GCD clipping. To get there, you'd need 66.7% total haste, 34% haste from gear, or 1,112 haste rating. As just another point of reference, 881 haste rating would give you a 0.95 second FoL cast, which is probably a more reasonable number to aim for if you are trying to get capped when taking latency into account.

My current gemming strategy is to maintain around 32k-33k mana fully raid buffed, and then gem for sp/haste. I like the hybrid gems because you get slightly more SP per item budget. So I'm going red or yellow socket with 10 haste, 12 spell power. The blue sockets get 10 haste, 5 mp5. If I start dropping lower on mana than where I want to be, I throw in a few more int gems.

Originally Posted by arcane309
How important is it to stay near the soft haste cap (676) ?

Is it worth dipping below by no more than 40 under to get upgrades?

There is so much crit/mp5 around that it seems the haste gear ie. belt of the ice burrower , pendant of binding elements, wristwraps of cloudy omen (mail), and bracers of broken bond, not to mention rings....

Also would legs of failing light be the obvious choice in the correct piece to not be tier should you choose to go 4/5 tier 9? Seems like best choice since t9 legs have 0 haste..
It really depends on how much mana you have. I like to stay above 31k, preferably around 32k-33k mana before stacking haste. Crit really is a low priority stat now so try to avoid it where possible. Go for haste/crit or haste/mp5 gear, while avoiding crit/mp5 when possible.

As for non-tier: choose either the chest or the legs.

Non Heroic:
[Breastplate of the Frozen Lake] from Twin Val'kyr is your best chest option from TotC, and [Legplates of Failing Light] from Lord Jaraxxus is your best leg option from TotC. If crafting the chest is something you can do, then [Merlin's Robe] and the tier legs is the best option.

Heroic (not counting iLvl 258 tier):
Either using [Breastplate of the Frozen Lake] or [Legplates of Failing Light] will give you almost identical stats. The chest from heroic Twins is slightly better because you get 6 more haste instead of crit. However it's a bit easier to get the legs from heroic Jaraxxus atm.


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Old 10/01/09, 1:39 PM   #936
jdh79
Piston Honda
 
Draenei Paladin
 
Stormrage
Originally Posted by DiamondTear View Post
It's common to say that "you'll use DP on cooldown if you are stressed for mana", but this isn't exactly true. If you are spamming hard, it means that you'd rather not use DP at all and at most you'll use it enough to end the fight with 0 mana. I believe this makes Solace significantly better than the Talisman, but I'm not sure sure about Meteorite Crystal.

I would be interested in seeing the mp5 numbers (and breakdowns) with DP used every three minutes.

If you are in a heavily healing intensive fight, you want to put out your maximum possible HPS. Using DP on cooldown and spamming HL as much as your mana pool will allow is going to be far higher HPS (especially on heavy tank damage, which is our specialty) than scaling back your HL usage to avoid using DP. DP on cooldown with a 36k buffed mana pool is 750 mp5, which is a number you are not going to come close to matching with Mp5 gear/trinkets.

The other thing to keep in mind is DP is not a 50% reduction in effective HPS when you have it up. Even on an extremely healing intensive fight (except for gimmick mechanics like P3 Anub or Mimiron trash), if I am spamming HL, my overheal is going to be 55-75% typically. DP is probably throttling overhealing more than it throttles effective healing. And, the impact can be mitigated by using AW and SP on use trinkets.

F

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Old 10/01/09, 1:51 PM   #937
Silmeria
I am a nice guy
 
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Silmeriah
Blood Elf Paladin
 
No WoW Account
Let's be honest though, the highest damage peaks on hard mode ToC are very predictable phases of a fight which can in fact last longer than a DP cooldown. You still don't DP during that period because the probability of tank death would still be too high. However there are other parts of the fight where the damage is moderate which affords DP'ing on CD. Combining both, you're likely NOT hitting DP on CD for some of the hard mode ToC fights in the interest of curbing tank death risks.

Also, recommend against AW'ing during DP. 60% healing is really not much better than 50% in the grand scheme of things.

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Old 10/01/09, 1:56 PM   #938
jdh79
Piston Honda
 
Draenei Paladin
 
Stormrage
Here is how I calculate the regen value of INT:

10 INT = 180 mana with kings
1.8 mp5 from replenishment
3.8 mp5 from DP used on cooldown
0.5 mp5 from arcane torrent used on cooldown
2.4 mp5 assuming 4 JoW procs per minute
0.7 mp5 from illumination from crit assuming 12 mp5/1% crit (chain casting HL)

Therefore, 1 INT=0.92 mp5 for Blood Elves and 0.87 mp5 for non Blood Elves.

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Old 10/01/09, 2:56 PM   #939
Pontìfex
Glass Joe
 
Human Paladin
 
Hyjal
The use on Meteorite Crystal accounts for 100mp5 using it on CD, assuming you can make 1 cast per second. Coupled with the mana gain from 111 int (2015 int + 66.6 mp5) the regen on this trinket is 166.6 mp5. HOWEVER - Just got this trinket last night, and after playing around with it, I've noticed it's possible to get 20 stacks well before the 20 seconds is up. Casting holy lights, I've noticed single holy lights adding 2-3 and even 4 stacks in one case, with a single cast. In which case, the 100mp5 is a vast understatement of the regen potential of this trinket.
When you have beacon up, you get a stack for the initial cast, and then an additional cast for the beacon copy of that cast. I have yet to see casts add 3 or 4 stacks, but 2 is what should be happening for you as a paladin. Due to this, the on-use is closer to 180mp5 if used on CD under best case scenario.

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Old 10/01/09, 2:59 PM   #940
Trexokor
Glass Joe
 
Human Paladin
 
Fizzcrank
I keep seeing [Legplates of Failing Light] referred to as the best non-tier leg piece, from various sources. It's been confusing me a bit since I was under the impression that haste/MP5 was the better combo even if it meant dropping minute amounts of haste to get it.

Case in point, [Legguards of Concealed Hatred] drops 6 haste rating in favor of 47 MP5 over 88 critical strike rating. It's mail, so I understand the former piece if you're trying to stick to an all plate "diet", but our only competition on the Legguards is Resto Shamans, which is often 1 or 2 in the raid at most. Others have quoted some Cloth/Leather/Mail pieces before too, so that can't be it.

Is there something I'm missing with the Concealed Hatred legs?

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Old 10/01/09, 3:25 PM   #941
Aditu
Bald Bull
 
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Nyxnissa
Blood Elf Paladin
 
<Div>
No WoW Account
Originally Posted by Trexokor View Post
I keep seeing [Legplates of Failing Light] referred to as the best non-tier leg piece, from various sources. It's been confusing me a bit since I was under the impression that haste/MP5 was the better combo even if it meant dropping minute amounts of haste to get it.

Case in point, [Legguards of Concealed Hatred] drops 6 haste rating in favor of 47 MP5 over 88 critical strike rating. It's mail, so I understand the former piece if you're trying to stick to an all plate "diet", but our only competition on the Legguards is Resto Shamans, which is often 1 or 2 in the raid at most. Others have quoted some Cloth/Leather/Mail pieces before too, so that can't be it.

Is there something I'm missing with the Concealed Hatred legs?
I think that really depends if you feel pressed for mana regen or not. As usual, choosing between these items falls under "your personal scenario" as to which you would prefer based on how you play. I chose the plate leggings because I don't feel pressed for mana in hard mode ToC and I don't want to completely throw crit by the wayside because metorite crystal + DI + FoL spam affords some excellent regen.

If I were running with one holy paladin only (we use 2) and the tank healing burden was solely on my shoulders, then I'd probably lean towards the mp5 mail leggings and definitely more mp5 over crit throughout my set- plate or not.

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Old 10/01/09, 4:27 PM   #942
Roknroll
Von Kaiser
 
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Human Paladin
 
Tichondrius
I've found that with a high enough mana pool, you will get enough MP5 from BoW, DP, replenishment, judgements, mana tide, etc that you don't have to worry so much about MP5 on gear. It's always a helpful thing to have, but you can manage fine without it. Still, always go for haste/mp5 over crit/mp5. No matter what, you are going to end up with at least a few pieces with MP5 on them. My rule of thumb is just to go for gear with haste on it. If it's haste/mp5 or if it's haste/crit I don't really care. Then use your gem slots to fill in any gaps that you find in your playstyle. If you find yourself straining for mana in fights gem for Intellect. If you have no problems with mana, start gemming more for haste and spell power. Spell power isn't as useful as haste, due to the fact that most of our heals waste it on overhealing. But it still does increase the SS absorbs, will give larger FoL heal over times, and gives a little more to HL splashes.


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Old 10/01/09, 4:31 PM   #943
DiamondTear
Don Flamenco
 
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Blood Elf Paladin
 
Lightning's Blade (EU)
Originally Posted by Roknroll View Post
Fully raid buffed, we have so much haste that it starts to get into the area where you can't really consider it a stat that helps spells land earlier. Even at low levels of haste, say 300, you're at 35.8% total haste for a HL cast time of 1.47 seconds. Adding 100 haste puts you at 39.6% total haste for a HL cast time of 1.43 seconds. That's a lot of haste just added for only a 0.04 second reduction in cast time. Not something you are going to really notice if you are looking for your heals to land earlier.
I don't really expect to notice upgrades (other than the increased mana, which is nice). We just have to believe that on average haste makes our tanks die less.

Originally Posted by jdh79 View Post
If you are in a heavily healing intensive fight, you want to put out your maximum possible HPS. Using DP on cooldown and spamming HL as much as your mana pool will allow is going to be far higher HPS (especially on heavy tank damage, which is our specialty) than scaling back your HL usage to avoid using DP. DP on cooldown with a 36k buffed mana pool is 750 mp5, which is a number you are not going to come close to matching with Mp5 gear/trinkets.
I'm talking about a situation where you don't need to throttle holy light usage or use DP on cooldown. I don't use DP on cooldown in anub ph3 because I don't need to, even when I'm spamming as hard as I can. However, having SotF instead of the Talisman might be the difference between needing 0 or 1 or 2 DPs. If you calculated things using DP-on-cooldown, you would end up calculating 3 DPs and that will make the Talisman look better than it ever would in a real life situation.

This is what I'm going to do: I'll try to replace my Talisman with the 245 version of SotF.

Originally Posted by Trexokor View Post
Is there something I'm missing with the Concealed Hatred legs?
No. They're the BiS. People talking about other legs are arguing based on their own preference and/or arbitrary stat limits they want to stick to.

Originally Posted by Aditu View Post
I chose the plate leggings because I don't feel pressed for mana in hard mode ToC and I don't want to completely throw crit by the wayside because metorite crystal + DI + FoL spam affords some excellent regen.
Never cast FoL with DI. It will benefit you less that way. Try to use it when you have to refresh beacon or time it so that you can use it as many times as possible in a fight.

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Old 10/01/09, 5:05 PM   #944
jdh79
Piston Honda
 
Draenei Paladin
 
Stormrage
Originally Posted by DiamondTear View Post

I'm talking about a situation where you don't need to throttle holy light usage or use DP on cooldown. I don't use DP on cooldown in anub ph3 because I don't need to, even when I'm spamming as hard as I can. However, having SotF instead of the Talisman might be the difference between needing 0 or 1 or 2 DPs. If you calculated things using DP-on-cooldown, you would end up calculating 3 DPs and that will make the Talisman look better than it ever would in a real life situation.

.

Anub P3 (at least on 10 hard and 25 regular; have not tried 25 hard yet) is not really a good example because P3 is so short that you can just spam HL the entire time without going OOM. IIRC, the entire phase lasts only about 90 secs-2 mins. It is so easy to get to full mana before P3 starts by using DP during the burrow phase and meleeing some mana back after he emerges before he starts the P3 swarm. And, P3 has to last 90+ seconds before the benefit of 150 mp5 outweighs the starting mana gained from 128 INT (before even calculating replenishment into the equation).

Anub has too many breaks to really be considered mana regen intensive. When I am thinking of fights that press HPS and mana regen limits, I am thinking of long fights that require constant heavy healing like XT hard, Beasts, Twins, IC hard, etc.

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Old 10/01/09, 5:53 PM   #945
Sparty
Piston Honda
 
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Human Paladin
 
Stormrage
Gearing choices like those legs are generally based on Holy Light specs, and not SP oriented builds. The [Legplates of Failing Light] are BiS plate legs for both HL and SP builds, but the mail legs outpace them in a traditional HL build.

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