Delete. No idea why I double posted.

Is there a plus side to gaining a lot of mana while using DP+DI as opposed to half of it while using DP and the other half while using DI (separately)?

Using DI in conjunction with DP would allow you to chain Holy Lights. Since Holy Light's HPS while DP'ed is still fairly high (unlike FoL's) it somewhat offsets the MS effect, and with DI you won't have to worry a huge deal about the actual costs associated with chaining Holy Lights for 15 seconds.

I'm guessing that would be the reasoning at least.

It's been a long time since I tested it, but that macro does not work simply because if you press it after your cast has landed, it breaks and doesn't work at all. This is how it used to be in vanilla.

Edit: I was wrong, it works now

No, it works fine. I've had /stopcasting in my Holy Light macro for quite some time.

Just curious as I did not see it in the patch notes if with a 1.5 sec cast time will the sp/ap coefficent for Exorcism will be going up?

I want to be a shockadin so bad but its just not happening.

You can delay commands in WoW using the command "/in X" where X is a number in seconds, however you cannot use it with the /cast command. The macro and scripts system was carefully designed so it is not possible to write a macro or an addon that would "bot" for you.

A macro that would work with the /in command would be:
Although the above macro is not overly useful, with a little imagination you could probably make a macro that is actually useful, for instance, here is a macro that warns your raid when you cast Divine Plea and warns them again when Divine Plea is over.

For Int Vs. MP5 only for regen and regarding the changes with 3.2 we can say that 100 item points of int will give 121 points of int (this is with kings and the new Divine Intellect). This is 1815 mana. With the new replenishment this gives 18 MP5. 121 int also gives 0.726% crit. With illumination being 30% back on crit this makes it so 121 points of int will reduce a spell by 0.2178%. Now for MP5, 100 item points of mp5 with the 25% increase to MP5, so 100 item points of MP5 is equal to 47 MP5. This means that 100 item points of MP5 will give 29 MP5 more than int. With the mana reduction on spells because of crit means that to equal 29 mp5 you would need to spend 133 man every 5 seconds. Please correct any math issues. Also note this does not take into account the spell power from int or Mana Tide Totem or Arcane Torrent.

@Dugarax
You must not have a line break after the /in command. It has to be
Also, you should note that /in is not a default WoW macro command but provided by Addons (e.g. AceTimer-2.0).

the /in works for me as part of a macro, and I don't think I have an addon that provides it. I don't have AceTimer-2.0, unless it is part of another addon.

AceTimer-2.0 is a part of Ace2. So if you use any Addon that needs AceTimer-2.0 (simplier, if you use any Addon that uses Ace2), you have it.

Some other Addons are also providing it (DBM as far as I know).

100 Item points of MP5 will be 50 mp5 in 3.2.

121 Int Buffed (100 int base):
1815 Max Mana
18.15 Mp5 from Replenishment (3.2, 100% uptime)
18.91 Mp5 from Divine Plea @2min (37.81 @1min)

7.56 Mp5 from Mana Tide on CD per Shaman
18.15 Mp5 from Revitalize (Maximum Average, 100% WG and Rejuv)
4.54 Mp5 from Arcane Torrent on CD

72.6 Extra mana per SoW proc.

Without considering the Crit or Spell power from Int: The mana returned from Replenishment and Divine Plea on cool down is more mana then the same value of mp5, I assumed 100% uptime since our guild focuses on 10 man content. With DP @2min and Replenishment at 90%, Int offers more mana so long as the fight length is under 10 mins. Considering all possible sources of Int based regen, Int is vastly superior to any other stat still, offering a total maximum of 101.3 mp5 for a BE Paladin with 1 RShaman, 1 RDruid, and assuming a 10 min fight with 0 SoW usage. Without factoring the other benefits of Int still...

On a side note, does anyone find it interesting that a druid can 'hand out' mana at the same rate as replenishment on a per person basis?

And with even a few SoW procs per minute it gets further skewed in favor of Int. All the 25% bonus to Mp5 in 3.2 is going to mean to us is that we'll see bigger numbers, but nothing changes.

5 SoW procs in a minute = 30.25 Mp5 for example.

No, there's no direct interaction between the two that encourages stacking them. Toastr's right in that DI + DP + HL spam can be a good combo, but it's simply because DI works best when you need to cast a lot of HLs. If you can DP without having to cast a lot of HLs (eg Mimiron phase changes, XT heart phase, tank using shield wall), then there's not a whole lot of point using DI at the same time, especially if later during that fight you'll need to be spamming HLs (eg Mimiron P2 or XT tantrum + light bomb in melee clump).

It's tempting to try and use DI on cooldown, but if you're not casting a lot of HLs, then it's generally not worth it. It's better to combine DI + HL spam once per fight, than DI + FoL spam twice.

From last changes i noticed on PTR:
FoL HoT ticks each second (previously it was 3 ech seconds i think). Considering around 2500 SP i could reach nearly 1k ticks with wings on and FoL crit.
Sacred Shield Tootip was updated to show 600 base absorb value (or i didn't notice it before?)

This, in my mind, seems to be the real issue. I haven't done much of Ulduar on this character, but I've DPSed some of the hard modes, and I'm concerned with how 3.2 will work out with Holy Paladins.

As our tanks get higher and higher avoidance, mitigation, and, basically, effective health, how else is Blizzard planning on putting them in danger except through more and more ridiculous damage? And if they end up really hurting our mana regen to stop us from doing some form of HL spam, how will we be able to keep up?

Is there something here that I'm missing? I guess all we have is conjecture at this point, but I'm uncertain as to the kinds of mechanics the raids will have that will both endanger our tanks and yet allow us to heal them effectively. Obviously this is somewhat premature, as we don't have too many specifics yet, but it's something to keep in mind.

Blizzard will likely do more raid damage, since every healer can heal more than one target at a time. Some people have previously said that the new Judgement (now a melee attack) was proc'ing SoW to gain some mana when used at range. Mp5 gear will be buffed in 3.2, and certainly sp plate will have lots of mp5. The new encounters haven't been released yet, so you have to wait. Innervate and Mana Tide (group only) should be useful if you need more mana.

The current Judgement of Wisdom returns some mana now, but I think that's just part of its basic profile. I'll have to look at a WWS report to see how it's characterized. I think it's reported as Judgement of Wisdom and a mana return number. Adding mana return from Seal of Wisdom to it will certainly be nice.


When healing as a paladin, due to the Judgement mechanic now, I choose to always be targeting a mob/boss and to judge on CD whenever possible to make Heart of the Crusader available to the raid with as much uptime as possible. In my guild I choose to heal using Clique + Grid and our other Holy Paladin choose to heal using buttons and mouseover macros (I use mouseover macros for Hand of Salvation, Hand of Sacrifice, Beacon of Light, Sacred Shield, etc...). Thus, we both keep the boss targeted at most times now. On trash - there are usually 2-3 times during a raid when they get to hear me say "Oops! Broke that sheep!" I don't really see how anything would change with 3.2.

Personally, I think selecting people to heal them is a clunky mechnic (which is why I don't do it). The entire paradigm of paladin healing is going to change with this patch, where healing the raid will heal the tank. Thus, using any kind of healing situation whereby you would need to select someone and then press a button to heal them would be clunky. The only time that kind of healing works effectively is if you are only healing one person and never have to change targets - otherwise, you're doubling the number of times you need to click/press a button compared to someone who uses mouseover macros/healbot/clique.

At this point, both myself and the other holy paladin in my raid (our GM & raid leader) are specced 15 points into the ret tree, as the extra cooldown from Divine Guardian (given that we bring 2 holy priests (one with a PvE Disc offsepc) and 2 holy paladins and 1-2 ret paladins to every raid with Divine Guardian) is not required - thus, we choose the extra 5% crit and reduced instant cast mana savings.

From what I understand, general consensus is that these changes are going to force is to stack more Int than we are currently doing. However from the patch notes it seems that blizzard want to get us to use FoL again.

Since FoL is very mana efficient then surely we do not need to gem intellect and can focus purely on spell power - the already known "FoL build". As I understand FoL just isn't enough HPS to be able to sustain heavy tank damage especially in Hard Mode content with current gearing gemming styles. What sort of numbers and HPS can we possibly put out with a new gemming and play philosophy?

For example, changing around my current Holy gear I have 13 gem slots with Int, if i can viably replace them with spell power I gain 247 spell power(more with epic gems). The FoL libram (236-320 spell power), so that in theory is another 567 spell power. Swapping glyphs to SoL giving 5% healing and speccing 51/20/0 to get divinity for another 5%. If the FoL HoT ticks once a second, that is one tick even spammed(even hasted assuming some degree of server lag). That should be an 8%(?) increase per flash. This coupled with DG's added absorption and the high crit rate of FoL looks like it "may" get FoL to be the middle sized kind of heal weve been after on the target with SS.

Now deep number crunching maths isn't my forte but I can handle the basics so please tell me if Im way out of line, as always this is a topic for interpretation and to clarify some thoughts in my head.

In terms of adaptive playstyle, 2 Holy's with stacked beacon on the tank should be able to sustain the HPS required through this FoL spam. Each paladin being 1/2 a healer on the tank and 1/2 a healer on the raid, 2 Holy's making together a viable tank and raid healer.

I can confirm, that ranged JoW can proc both mana regen - from JoW and from SoW.

FoL spam will still not be viable unless the HoT mechanic becomes stackable and/or not reset per cast. I know when Pandora's plea and Greatness both proc at the same time, I'm sitting on something around 3500 SP raid buffed, and even with the prot FoL spec, my base FoL is about ~5.5k-6k non crit. This is entirely insufficient to heal a hard and fast hitting boss because topping off the tank becomes an issue unless you stack healers on the MT solely.

If Blizzard really wants to make FoL viable for MT healing, then its coefficient needs to be buffed slightly and an IoL mechanic added between it and HL. That in addition to, the HoT mechanic being designed so as to not reset per cast.

If this stays in place, I believe that glyphs of SoW, HL, and Beacon become the best trio to use for PvE Holy. The SoL-glyph loses a lot of value as it provides no tangible bonus for judging.

On another topic, I am currently on the PTR and looking for a way to test Divine Sacrifice + Divine Shield in a reliable way. I want to see if I can figure out why it is reported to "break early" on some occasions, but not others. I want to try both magic and physical damage. Does anyone have any information on specific situations where DiSac+DS broke early? I have a few theories:

• Taking/immuning damage between the DS buff going up and when you cast DiSac (the GCD window)
• AoE damage vs direct damage (tank melee vs frozen blows)

Let me know if you have any other ideas or theories.