Holy Paladin thread for Patch 3.3 changes - Page 74

Palados · 10/18/09, 2:21 AM

You didn't double HPS for holy spec (bacon). You didn't take into account haste (smaller heals but lands much faster). You didn't take into account -0.5 sec faster HL due to talent.

Basically, the amount of healing per spell is the least relevant number you can imagine. What matters - healing per second or per mana. If you try to take all things into account you will see that holy build hps even without the bacon is higher than ret build hps (without the hot).

Imagine, for simplicity, that both palas have no haste and holy pala doesn't judge (for 15% extra haste). 19.2k per 2.5 sec gives 7680 hps while 15k healer per 2 sec gives 7.5k hps. After factoring haste and taking into account that hot from ret talent gets overwritten each crit and not rolled (I think), you will see that single target HPS is higher for standard build. At the same time holy pala can heal TWO targets and for LONGER period of time.

Kevinally · 10/18/09, 2:43 AM

Originally Posted by Palados

You didn't double HPS for holy spec (bacon). You didn't take into account haste (smaller heals but lands much faster). You didn't take into account -0.5 sec faster HL due to talent. You assume that hot is rolling but it's not - it is overwritten each crit and thus big part of it is wasted if you spam-heal.

Basically, the amount of healing per spell is the least relevant number you can imagine. What matters - healing per second or per mana. If you try to take all things into account you will see that holy build hps even without the bacon is higher than ret build hps (without the hot).

Imagine, for simplicity, that both palas have no haste and holy pala doesn't judge (for 15% extra haste). 19.2k per 2.5 sec gives 7680 hps while 15k healer per 2 sec gives 7.5k hps. After factoring haste and taking into account that hot from ret talent gets overwritten each crit and not rolled, you will see that single target HPS is higher for standard build. At the same time holy pala can heal TWO targets and for LONGER period of time.

I pulled those numbers directly from Rawr.Healadin, so I was assuming it was accounting for haste, as well as the .5s reduction on HL. I wasn't sure about BoL or JotP, so yes, I was disregarding those. I also realized that the HoT would be over-written and wouldn't get the full heal off, so I disregarded those and compaired the jacked up spec @ 6006/14836 to the DivGuard spec @ 5926/14954. Even without the HoT, the jacked up spec still has larger FoL and HLs, although between JotP and Light's Grace, I definitely agree that FoL and HL will be cast more often. Maybe spreading those out over time would have been a better idea.

Now I'm curious if, with talents, the DivGuard spec has more realistic (not just on paper) output than the jacked up spec. The biggest thing about his spec that made me wonder was he went straight from 80 to healing me in Uld10 hardmodes and ToC10, and I've never been the first to die. Even with some other very talented healers who out-gear him more than marginally, I haven't been able to say that in the past.

TL;DR version: I understand where you're coming from, and believe you're right. I'll just need to review a few logs to prove it to myself as well. Once I get some solid logs, i'll review them and post them up for other people to poke at as well. Unless someone else has already done this?

gcbirzan · 10/18/09, 3:00 AM

It may be accounting, but the numbers you posted are healing per cast, not healing per second. The metric you used favours a Seath of Light spec, due to the many haste benefits of the proper holy spec, but it's completely irrelevant.

Kevinally · 10/18/09, 3:09 AM

Originally Posted by gcbirzan

It may be accounting, but the numbers you posted are healing per cast, not healing per second. The metric you used favours a Seath of Light spec, due to the many haste benefits of the proper holy spec, but it's completely irrelevant.

Its definitely relevant, I just didn't think about the fact that the numbers were healing per cast until after I had posted. The raw power of one cast means nothing when you're chaining more casts right behind it over the span of a 3-10 minute fight. That leaves me with two options. either A) do the math again over a period of time, assuming perfection, or B) test it in-game with multiple combat logs to either back me up, or drill me into the ground. I would do the math, but I don't know the ins and outs of holy pally numbers, so that leaves me needing combat logs, which I'll be getting within the next couple weeks, hopefully. We've got 14 days of raiding ahead of us, in both 10 and 25 man content, so I'll definitely be posting once I have enough combat logs to definitively say one way or the other.

Its not that I don't believe you guys, its just that I havn't seen any numbers other than the ones that I have posted, which are, for combat sake, worthless, as Palados and Gcbirzan has already pointed out.

gcbirzan · 10/18/09, 3:17 AM

If it helps you, the haste bonuses a proper holy spec gives you are 15% for FoL and 43.75% for HL, so just increase the HPS of holy by .15 and .4375 respectively.

Kevinally · 10/18/09, 3:56 AM

Thank you gcbirzan (huzzah to the avitar, BTW). Wall of numbers incoming.

Cast Times
FoL with Grandon's haste and spec:1.25s
HL with Grandon's haste and spec:2.09s
FoL with grandon's haste and DivGuard:1.09s
HL with Grandon's haste and DivGuard:1.45s

HPS
FoL w/ Grandon's haste and spec:6036.5 = 5749 + 287.5 (HoT)
HL w/ Grandon's haste and spec:7144.2 = 6804 + 340.2 (HoT)
FoL w/ Grandon's haste and DivGuard:5211
HL w/ Grandon's haste and DivGuard:9873

I calculated the HoT by taking the base HPS with his spec and gear, multiplying by .6 to get 60%, then dividing by 12 to get 1 second rather than 12. If I did that incorrectly, please fix it.

So what I see from this is that, if HL spamming, DivGuard spec with his gear comes out on top, but if FoL spamming, his spec comes out on top, even without the HoT. This is completely disregarding Beacon, with which DivGuard blows the ret spec out of the water (assuming overheal is nonexistant). Does that sound about right?

And thanks for helping me through this, you two. I've been trying to understand it more, and while this hasn't helped me understand it, it HAS helped me understand why its wrong.

Palados · 10/18/09, 4:27 AM

Out of curiosity I tried both specs in rawr with my gear. Retri spec produces around 5.3k HPS in 7min fight with reasonable parameters, while Holy spec gives around 8.5k HPS (with divine plea used each 2 min).

Kevinally · 10/18/09, 4:58 AM

Originally Posted by Palados

Out of curiosity I tried both specs in rawr with my gear. Retri spec produces around 5.3k HPS in 7min fight with reasonable parameters, while Holy spec gives around 8.5k HPS (with divine plea used each 2 min).

good call. The only problem I see with that is that your gear is all ilvl232+, whereas his is all 226-, and I know he is also itemized differently than your standard holy pally. I'll admit I don't know how to model fights in Rawr, would you mind loading him from armory and running it the same way? You've got my curiosity peaked. I still plan on getting combat logs within the next week, and we can compare the numbers.

Mox · 10/18/09, 7:27 AM

Originally Posted by Palados

Out of curiosity I tried both specs in rawr with my gear. Retri spec produces around 5.3k HPS in 7min fight with reasonable parameters, while Holy spec gives around 8.5k HPS (with divine plea used each 2 min).

Trouble with trying to model it in rawr is that you can't force rawr to cast more FoL than HL, ret spec highly favours FoL spam so the HPS numbers from rawr aren't close to realistic. Get the same problem trying to model the 'normal' spellpower stacking FoL build.

Would be really good to have a slider bar in rawr to set % of FoL casts!

jdh79 · 10/18/09, 1:56 PM

Originally Posted by Kevinally

I'll admit, I'm not a holy pally guy, but having a pally tank, I can appreciate the snore-fest that pally healing has always been for me, since it keeps my ass standing. I've got something for you guys to pick over. A friend of mine, Grandon, is using quite possibly the most jacked up spec i've ever seen for healing. I've seen plenty of healing builds that go into ret for the free crit, but he's invested mostly in the ret tree, with a few points in holy and prot to round it off. It is definately an FoL spam spec, but the HL's hit me hard enough to keep me alive while I take the runic punches in P3 IC hardmode, and with all the points in ret, he gets a bubble, and two HoTs. His gear is definately sub-par, but he's easily out-healing anyone else in the raid.

I know it works, and I know how it works. It makes him a true single-target healer, but I would love to see the healing output it could do at higher gear levels. I'm more curious as to everyone else's input on this spec.

He is absolutely killing his healing output and potential using that spec.

1. No beacon means off the bat you are giving away 50% of your HPS. Even if you want to be a single target only healer, beaconing your primary target means you are giving free heals to the rest of the raid
2. Mana efficiency is likely to be terrible if he ever has to cast anything but FoL. Very low mana pool and no Divine Illumination means there is no way HL spam can be sustained for any period of time.
3. I don't see how he is hitting with his heals fast enough to be effective either. No JoTP, no Light's Grace, only 272 haste.
4. 2172 SP is nowhere near high enough for FoL to heal for enough on non trivial content. Not having the 20% INT to SP conversion hurts, but even with hit, he wouldn't have the gear/SP to make a FoL style work.
5. Using the sheath hot depends on crit, but he is losing the 5% crit from the holy tree, so his holy crit percentage is on par to below what you see from most 51/5/15 or 51/2/18 pallies
6. The sheath hot is nice; however, I don't see it as viable or dependable enough to even consider wasting so many talent points to get to. Realistically, it probably overheals more than it heals, because the healing from that is going to be sniped alot of the time from other direct heals and HoTs. Also, if you are tank healing, you are going to be constantly overwriting the sheath HoT, further reducing your HPS.

Kevinally · 10/18/09, 6:02 PM