Holy Paladin thread for Patch 3.3 changes - Page 86

godamit69 · 11/04/09, 12:51 AM

I wonder if they give the ability to remove the forbearance with Glyph of Divinity. As Ret or Prot do not take this.

Rataard · 11/04/09, 3:45 AM

Hopefully they change the way either the glyph works, or the effect talents have on the holy LOH tree. Unless I'm overlooking something, this is just their workaround to the "2/3 phase" prot/ret pally 1v1 fights.

Until they find a workabout for this that actually makes sense, it looks like LoH'ing a prot pally would be completely retarded. 50% damage redux or less that half of that talented. I'm sure they'll figure out some way to make LoH a viable raid utility again... except right now, apparently being able to heal to full health in 1 GCD, every 11 minutes is overpowered, whereas druids do it every 30 seconds in 2 GCD's.

C'est lavie.

Mox · 11/04/09, 4:55 AM

Originally Posted by matthewseidl

So with beacon on the tank, a FoL build with enough haste to cap FoL at 1s could be effectively putting 2xFoL's into the tank every second. 1 FoL directly (cast on a random raid member) and 12x 1/12 hots on 12 different raid members. Still not likely to get the HPS of FL spam on two tanks, but for a single tank fight or a tank+raid damage situation, this seems like a major buff.

the FoL HoT is not transfered via beacon.

As for the loh change, it makes neligible difference to those without a prot pally MT and is a much needed change/'nerf if you will' from a pvp perspective. Even those guilds who do use a prot pally MT shouldn't be worried THAT much, if your tank is in a situation to need a LoH AND his bubblewall soon after then you have serious healing issues, also 4pt prot T9 reduces forbearance to 1min30. But I'm sure blizz will add a deep holy or prot talent to fix it, if loh stays this way.

Sansei · 11/04/09, 5:31 AM

Originally Posted by Mox

the FoL HoT is not transfered via beacon.

As for the loh change, it makes neligible difference to those without a prot pally MT and is a much needed change/'nerf if you will' from a pvp perspective. Even those guilds who do use a prot pally MT shouldn't be worried THAT much, if your tank is in a situation to need a LoH AND his bubblewall soon after then you have serious healing issues, also 4pt prot T9 reduces forbearance to 1min30. But I'm sure blizz will add a deep holy or prot talent to fix it, if loh stays this way.

I don't agree. The part of PvP that matters is only arenas and LoH is unusable there. It's not a PvP nerf, not an intended PvP nerf anyway.

In PvE it makes a huge difference, because LoH is a panic button and if you used LoH, it's already because you had a momentary trouble with healing. Doesn't mean you're a bad healing squad or you must never use LoH and tanking CDs right one after another. You can do so to have the 10-20% physical damage reduction as an extended tanking CD.

I hope it won't make it live this way.

Mox · 11/04/09, 5:55 AM

Originally Posted by Sansei

I don't agree. The part of PvP that matters is only arenas and LoH is unusable there. It's not a PvP nerf, not an intended PvP nerf anyway.

Actually PvP is the main reason it is being changed, go read any of the countless GC responses regarding paladins in pvp.

We don't think "Sure I can heal myself for 25,000+ health as a dps spec or 50,000+ health as a tank, but not very often," is balanced. Abilities can be unbalanced even if overall a character is not. This isn't a non-issue just because it doesn't affect Arenas. Also, it doesn't mean paladins are being singled out for one-vs-one duel balance (though I'm sure I'm going to be reading that for months to come).

Paladins too defensive in PvP
I'll add it's also a problem where paladins as a whole are too defensive and not just the Protection spec ones. You see people describing fighting a Retribution paladin as a three phase boss fight. You might get them down, but then they can reset the fight with Lay on Hands. You get them down again and they bubble and heal. Compare this to an Arms warrior -- do they do great damage in PvP? Yes. Are they invulnerable? No. It's cool for paladins to care more about healing than do warriors, for I hope obvious reasons. If you are up against a Ret paladin, you should be concerned with how much damage they should deal. You should not, generally, be nearly as concerend about the Prot's ability to self-heal or the Ret's ability to tank you.

So yes LoH is being changed to balance prot/ret in pvp.

Beregond · 11/04/09, 6:48 AM

Here we go, another brainless change to loh

( for those who didn't read it yet :
Lay on Hands is now affected by Forbearance and can now be cast on self again - Heals a friendly target for an amount equal to the Paladin's maximum health and restores 1950 of their mana. Once healed, the target cannot be targeted by Divine Shield, Divine Protection, Hand of Protection, or Lay on Hands again for 2 min.)

I really don't care about using it on myself, but with this change we can't use it on prot pallies anymore, it 's too risky to block their divine protection for 2 mins in exchange for a heal and a poor damage reduction if talented; I admit that I don't use it so often, but this is our poor Nature's Swiftness, I don't like the idea of checking tank class before trying to save em :\
They should apply forbearance only when cast on self, that would be fair even for occasional pvp

Ballistae · 11/04/09, 7:43 AM

Isn't it possible to LoH the tank via Beacon and thereby only giving yourself forebearance? In such a case, HoP or DS would still be possible for the tank.

Beregond · 11/04/09, 8:17 AM

Originally Posted by godamit69

I wonder if they give the ability to remove the forbearance with Glyph of Divinity. As Ret or Prot do not take this.

Sry but I don't accept to screw my glyph settings due to a pvp change because they can't pull out a better idea to balance that spell

Originally Posted by Ballistae

Isn't it possible to LoH the tank via Beacon and thereby only giving yourself forebearance? In such a case, HoP or DS would still be possible for the tank.

Maybe on 50% of occasions, but what if the tank in danger is the main/off prot pally without beacon? We can't even place BoL in a sub-optimal way (e.g. the tank with less incoming damage) just for the chance to throw that LoH on the right target, it would be a huge penality on efficiency

Kandiru · 11/04/09, 9:02 AM

With SoulStone having a 15min CD now, I can't really see why lay on hands needs nerfing.

You can self res from a soulstone with a lot of health and mana and deathcoil->dot->fear someone when they aren't expecting it.

Lay on hands isn't nearly as powerful!

Also, locking tanks out of their CDs because of someone else's actions is a horrific game mechanic.

Terlig · 11/04/09, 9:14 AM

Originally Posted by Ballistae

Isn't it possible to LoH the tank via Beacon and thereby only giving yourself forebearance? In such a case, HoP or DS would still be possible for the tank.

Yeah but you forget about essence of LoH for holy - Improved LoH, it's pretty good CD for certain situations.

Sansei · 11/04/09, 10:49 AM

and don't forget about the delay due to beacon of light.
forbearance when LoH used on self sounds like quite a viable solution tbh. But even then, they must make sure LoH can be cast on people who have forbearance as long as the caster is not casting on herself.

DiamondTear · 11/04/09, 12:53 PM

I wouldn't like LoHing any tank and then dying to penetrating cold because I couldn't bubble. I think the Beacon workaround is viable though. You can easily plan your healing so that you heal another tank and beacon the paladin. Who takes less damage doesn't matter much.

• frmorrison · 11/04/09, 1:13 PM

Since Blizzard doesn't like Prot and Ret having so much healing power, removing Forbearance from a LoH heals banked in a Holy talent (the imp LoH talent appears to be a good choice for it) is a compromise I could live with.

jdh79 · 11/04/09, 1:48 PM

Originally Posted by frmorrison

Since Blizzard doesn't like Prot and Ret having so much healing power, removing Forbearance from a LoH heals banked in a Holy talent (the imp LoH talent appears to be a good choice for it) is a compromise I could live with.

It's probably not going to work to put this on the Improved Lay on Hands talent, because it isn't deep enough in the holy tree. If they did this and leave Improved LoH where it is, you'd only need to go 12 pts into holy to pick it up, which means prot and ret pallies could potentially grab it, especially in PvP specs.

grunz · 11/04/09, 2:06 PM

This is a good change for the long haul because it'll force Blizz to take a look at the forebearance mechanic. It's stupid that our class is balanced around abilities that are apparently so gamebreaking that they had to introduce a debuff -- for one class only! -- that prevents using said abilities back-to-back. Bubble and bop were at least conceptually related enough to tie their cooldowns to each other, but now they're adding FB to a majority of our cooldowns over thirty seconds.

It smacks of poor class design, and the more crap they tag with the FB debuff, the faster their eventual overhaul of the paladin class. FB is a shortcut for the designers to avoid tackling some core issues for our class, and I hope they overuse it to the point of absurdity so that we can begin to move toward meaningful change.