Yes, as stated on page 6 in Chicken's post, our 'button-mashing' eventually falls into a regular rotation. Starting with CS, the rotation has three periods of down-time, two of which are one second and the other is two seconds. I would rather not quote the entire thing as it is a rather large post; he discusses the rotation(s) in detail there.

It isn't cleaner, but it does have some open gaps much like on live. I am at work, so don't have my sheets in front of me, but I believe we have a 1 second gap a 12 seconds, and a 2 second gap somewhere in the 20 seconds area. Now, taking lag, latency and such into account, these gaps may not actually be there, but, on paper they are.

Those gaps exist using the priority of J>CS>DS>Cons>Exo and using the Cons glyph. I haven't ran the numbers, as it is still much to early to tell, but Judgement is blowing CS out of the water in DPS.

Something else I noticed on paper, when prioritzing Judgement, my CS average CD was actually at 4.25 seconds. Other posts have been stating 4.5, but in a perfect rotation, I am using it right at 4 and at 4.5 alternating.

I ran a few tests using the current CS>J>DS>Con>EXo and using Judge>DS>CS>Con>Exo and saw a dps increase using the second rotation.
Current


Judge>DS>CS


I tried testing J>CS>DS but it seemed like an army unloaded at the SMC test dummies. None of the other cities were open either. I'll try again when i get home from work.

Using 5/11/55 spec with glyphs of Judge/Cons/Exo. And Blessing of Might

Can people please stop posting Recount results of doing different 5-10 minutes tests against Target Dummies, they are really not useful at all. Firstly because of the sample size you are doing is quite small and they can be prone to RNG streaks. You can even see in the screenshot how one test had 2% higher crit rate on SoV. Secondly you have no raid buffs, and different abilities scale at different rates. Self buffed one rotation could be the best, but I don't really care about that. I want to know what rotation is the best for when I am in a raid with full buffs.

Not to derail the current subject at hand, but time is of the essence and I am still not sure if Blizzard would be able to implement such a change on short notice. Who knows, perhaps patch 3.3 but regardless I would like to hear the input of some of you prior to posting on WoW forums.

I have been thinking about what changes can be done to paladins to create a more complex playstyle. Without just straight copying another class as blizzard has continually stated that they don’t want us to be “warriors” but to be able to give us some utility in both PvP and PvE I came up with this concept based on others ideas as well as my own.

Instead of Crusader Strike just being a one dimensional attack, they rename it to Crusader Strikes. You would have three unique strikes in the vein of paladins, Crusader Strike of Wisdom, Light and Justice. The damage dealt by these would all be the same as the current 3.2 crusader strike damage, however, you would have “self” combo points of the corresponding color up to three total. Each use would give you that corresponding combo point as that color to be used as a self buff, or a debuff on a hostile target. The “release” of the CPs would have a 30 yard range. The buffs/debuffs would be as follows:

Each yellow CP would grant 10/20/30% increased healing to a friendly target or 10/20/30% decreased healing on a hostile target for 8 seconds.

Each blue CP would grant 5/10/15% mana to friendly target or 5/10/15% loss of mana on unfriendly target.

Each red CP would increase movement speed by 10/20/30% on friendly target or decrease hostile targets movement speed by 10/20/30% for 8 seconds.

You would not be limited to stack all of one color. So for example in a PvP environment if you put up one blue and 2 red cps (by using the corresponding colored crusader strike) and released it on a harmful opponent, it would make that target lose 5% mana and decrease run speed by 20% for 8 seconds.

This would ultimately give us more utility. The applications for such a change would benefit both PvP and PvE. Would not introduce any burst. It would also give us more buttons to push and have us think about what needs to be done as opposed to just hitting Crusader Strike on CD. We would gain a snare, a speed boost for ourselves or others, a mana drain, an innervate, a weaker MS and a save for times when we or a party member needs some extra healing.

I would like to put this up on either the PTR or the Suggestion Forums or perhaps both. However, I would like some constructive feedback before posting so that I can tweak the concept before posting.

While that sounds neat, the developer vision of the Paladin class is to be the simplest to play (which it is), but harder to master (which is still being worked on). To add a third resource system (combo points), would be against the vision of the class, so it never happen.

I really like the idea of giving paladins more things to do than simple 4 or 5 button permutations, but I don't feel combining death knights, druids, priests, rogues, and warriors is the right way to go about it. There are ways to use current abilities to benefit the raid as a whole more than just a healer, tank, or DPS currently. Divine Sacrifice, Hand of Freedom / Protection / Sacrifice / Salvation, Lay on Hands, Aura Mastery, etc. All of these things give us PvP and PvE utility.
I would however like to see some changes to how the class feels, as it is relatively boring cool-down watching at the moment. Perhaps going along with your CP idea but in a different way. I like the fact that using abilities would lead to the use of other abilities, but Retribution should be used primarily for damage. Perhaps the Yellow could be unleashing holy damage on the enemy that gets stronger with each point, the Blue could be a physical attack that applies a de-buff of some sort, and the Red could be an additional AoE ability. As I think, it feels more and more like a death knight / rogue hybrid.

Thanks, will put in a caveat stating that the concept of what you would be able to do with this fervor are just examples and can be adjusted to fit more of the paladin lore but were things that I could think up readily off the top of my head. However, adding a damaging component might make us "too strong" again and cause us to be nerfed elsewhere.

To be honest. The idea of drastically redesigning our class is not going to happen in the near future and not on this PTR for sure.

Ghostcrawler has already pretty much stated just that. Sure it is fun to theorycraft and make your own class. However, time is not of the essence to have to discussed since the devs don't want to drastically change anything. We have a narrow area of change to work in. Mainly the Exorcism and AOW mechanics since those are two abilities they have changed and want feedback on.

Rather than have the thread derail on wish lists we need to test and discuss what is at hand now. Honestly we could all post our own made up paladin dps system which leads to a lot of posts which distract from the things we can test and potentially change for the better before 3.2 hits.

I'm wondering if these incoming changes affect the BiS lists?

They will ,but asking us to research and change them now would be a waste of time. Seeing how a lot of things will change and new gear will be created. Rawr has it's own 3.2 mode you can test that yourself.

I wouldn't say meaningless, as it is still in your best interest to optimize yourself before tackling new and harder content. But it is a fairly low priority, and there's a few things I'm pretty sure we'll see changed before the PTR is over that will affect any lists you make now.

This isn't the place to discuss wishlists and fantasy abilities. Change the subject or I'm closing the thread.

World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> Please Change Glyph of Seal of Vengence

Seems like the devs are happy with us glyphing for the 10 Expertise.

Rogues get 10, Enhance gets 9, DKs get 5 or 6, and Warriors get -2% dodge (similar to 8 expertise) or 6 expertise (depending on dps tree), so having Ret get 10 isn't outlandish.

Time will tell (in a month) if they are serious about keeping it that way though.

Makes sense - most people aren't aware that we were the only non-healing class with no access to either a Hit or Expertise talent (access means a talent within the tree or within the first 2 tiers of another tree).

It's not the prettiest way to solve this issue, but it's definitely a solution that works.

It really depends on how CC loot is itemized. If there's a lot of very nice Expertise gear to wear so that you can get close to the cap without the glyph it would be worth dropping for Exorcism. If there isn't and Expertise becomes something hard to come by the Glyph would most likely result in more DPS than Exorcism.

It is also amazing for Rets not capped through gear. It may also work out that using the glyph and getting other gear with other stats may be a bigger dps increase that the glyph of Exo.

Yes, small sample sizes are just that and should always be taken with a grain of salt, however out of the dozens of rounds I did on the Dummy SoV>Melee>Judgement always. No matter how long I did a test for. DS, CS, Cons, and BC were the only abilities that were inconsistent in the amount of damage they did. The exception given to CS is considering SoV application that CS will almost always outscale DS with an obvious exception given to Kolorgarn style fights. Just keep in mind that we have to consider not just what J, CS or DS does but the SoV application they provide.

Until we get our Patchwerk dummies when they open up the Coliseum the dummies are really the best we have, because even most raid fights are going to provide data that is heavily (if not more heavily) dependent on RNG.

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As I asked earlier though I am very curious to see how much more we scale with caster SP style buffs since just under half of my damage is Spell damage abilities that will only scale that much MORE with raid buffs. I really want to see how SP and caster buffs help us and if our new Judgement is affected by those.

I've noticed that seal of command currently procs normally for melee attacks (once per attack) but for judgments it procs twice. To test it out, just stand in melee range of the dummy with your back facing it and judge. You will see 2 seal procs. I don't know if thats working as intended, the seal proccing off a landing judgment and another effect, or if its just bugged atm. I've judged several times to test it out, sometimes letting all my debuffs fall off, and others just judging on cooldown and every time the judgment procs 2 seals.

If this is indeed working as intended it will make seal command the PVP seal of choice. On the testing dummy, in 2 pc furious, 2pc deadly, 8.5 legs and 2350 weapon with no crits i did a little over 3k just from the judge and 2 procs. With lucky crits that could turn extremely deadly and nullify our loss in target switching burst.

This may be related to reports on the Prot thread indicating that Judgements of the Just will proc Seal of Vengeance twice, both for stacking the DOT effect and the 33% weapon damage proc at 5 stacks.

Either some other Ret talent has a similar effect, or it wasn't JOTJ causing the double-proc at all, but some other effect shared betwee Ret and Prot (perhaps Heart of the Crusader?).

Theres two ways of looking at that information:

1: its a bug created while they have been looking at tweaking judgement effects for SoV, and has subsequently effected all judgements to "proc twice". Someone needs to do tests with SoR to see if it happens with that as well - then we know if its an overall judgement bug, or just something caused with their modification of SoV/SoCom

2: Its working as intended. Yes, this is an extremely less likely circumstance... I suppose we'll find out in a few days (or tomorrow) when the ptr server is updated again, or from a blue post (likely to be soon).