40% damage reduction for 12 seconds every 5 minutes.
Just to note, that would require getting Divine Guardian as well, which would mean we can't get all of the 5 points we need in SotP to maximise our DPS so really we are looking at 30%.
But I agree that getting Imp LoH instead of Divine Sacrifice for on demand mitigation would be a poor choice, since sacrifice covers the entire raid (provided they are within 30 yards), and includes magic damage rather than just the melee hits the tank receives.
Just to note, that would require getting Divine Guardian as well, which would mean we can't get all of the 5 points we need in SotP to maximise our DPS so really we are looking at 30%.
But I agree that getting Imp LoH instead of Divine Sacrifice for on demand mitigation would be a poor choice, since sacrifice covers the entire raid (provided they are within 30 yards), and includes magic damage rather than just the melee hits the tank receives.
Let's not forget that DiS is still cap'd on your health whereas the LoH buff will last its full duration and cannot be eaten through. While that may not mean much in terms or raid mitigation, imp LoH could be better for hard modes without heavy aoe dmg. Haven't looked at the bosses in the Colosseum so i can't say how often we'll run into those.
Let's not forget that DiS is still cap'd on your health whereas the LoH buff will last its full duration and cannot be eaten through. While that may not mean much in terms or raid mitigation, imp LoH could be better for hard modes without heavy aoe dmg. Haven't looked at the bosses in the Colosseum so i can't say how often we'll run into those.
With this in mind, has anyone been able to test DiS's interaction with Divine Shield on the 3.2 PTR? If the 3.1 interaction remains taking Divine Sacrifice is still something of a no-brainer.
Let's not forget that DiS is still cap'd on your health whereas the LoH buff will last its full duration and cannot be eaten through. While that may not mean much in terms or raid mitigation, imp LoH could be better for hard modes without heavy aoe dmg. Haven't looked at the bosses in the Colosseum so i can't say how often we'll run into those.
On live realms, at least for me DiSac is not capped on health. Even if it is fixed in 3.2, it is still a useful talent.
Originally Posted by Emily
Movement speed increases are often underrated - I can't recall where the maths was done (somewhere on these boards), but passing up a 7% run speed increase needs a damn good reason, and I can't see myself dropping PoJ for any other passive talents.
No doubt that 7% run speed is a dps increase, likely more than 12 crit/12 hit. However, if I want 2/2 PoJ I have to drop a utility talent like Vindication or a raid buffing talent like 3% haste or imp Might.
Millions of words are written annually purporting to tell how to beat the races, whereas the best possible advice on the subject is found in the three monosyllables: 'Do not try.'
Would you care to explain your reasoning? You cannot have both Imp LoH and DiSac. That makes it a choice between 20% damage reduction for 15 seconds every 11 minutes, and 40% damage reduction for 12 seconds every 5 minutes. So far as mitigation on demand goes, this is not a choice at all; DiSac simply provides twice as much mitigation, with almost twice as much up time.
I admit, I didn't really think it through to the end, as you validly pointed out. My intention was nonetheless rather to give an alternative to Aura Mastery.
The possibilities Imp. LoH could give are already gone into by above posters, and I agree that Div. Sac. (even 30% one) is the better choice if not capped. Should that be the case, Imp. LoH would still provide focussed mitigation, while the capped Div. Sac. could be used up by say a careless dd standing in the fire (which we all know does happen).
Still, I was mainly brainstorming possibilities in the holy tree and in general, not dictating THE cookie cutter spec.
I guess the points leading up to Div. Sac. are also the most interesting for ones personal max-dps through better mobility (HoF, stoicism) ending up with this 5/11/55 spec, leaving one free point, which I put into SoC, but could easily be spent elsewhere, as SoC still is for me a rather unkown variable in the context of fast dying trash. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.
On live realms, at least for me DiSac is not capped on health. Even if it is fixed in 3.2, it is still a useful talent.
No doubt that 7% run speed is a dps increase, likely more than 12 crit/12 hit. However, if I want 2/2 PoJ I have to drop a utility talent like Vindication or a raid buffing talent like 3% haste or imp Might.
Drop an utility talent for dps increase? Every day. The use of vindication remains questionable even in 3.2, and to be honest i can't see how dropping mandatory PvE talents in the retri tree in order to get some so-so utility talents ever came to question? Don't know for others, but for me 2/2 PoJ won't change.
Divine Sacrifice capped on health and without Divine Guardian hardly even justify your personal dps loss by using DS.
On live realms, at least for me DiSac is not capped on health. Even if it is fixed in 3.2, it is still a useful talent.
No doubt that 7% run speed is a dps increase, likely more than 12 crit/12 hit. However, if I want 2/2 PoJ I have to drop a utility talent like Vindication or a raid buffing talent like 3% haste or imp Might.
You're basing this off of not having another class capable of doing the same thing. When min/max situations occur, PoJ>Vindication by a mile.
Will be the build most rets use. As DiSac is a very great asset to have. Even if being capped by health, high raid damage situations would almost certainly demand it. Especially if chained with Holy/Prot or another Ret.
Edit: As far as the 50% DMG reduction goes, dead DPS can't DPS.
Double Edit: The 5/5 Divinity can be switched for Stoicism and Guardian's Favor.
On live realms, at least for me DiSac is not capped on health. Even if it is fixed in 3.2, it is still a useful talent.
On live it is capped, though it ends up lasting longer then it should for some reason, but it does end early. This was most noticeable on pre-nerf P2 Mimiron hard mode. Where it would normally last ~6 seconds, still absorbing way more then 150% cap. So then Imp LoH would have a higher uptime, and would probably be better if your goal was to maximize tanks benefit (depending on fight of course).
On live it is capped, though it ends up lasting longer then it should for some reason, but it does end early. This was most noticeable on pre-nerf P2 Mimiron hard mode. Where it would normally last ~6 seconds, still absorbing way more then 150% cap. So then Imp LoH would have a higher uptime, and would probably be better if your goal was to maximize tanks benefit (depending on fight of course).
The best understanding of Divine sacrifice is that it ended when 150% of the user's HP has been transfered from a single target rather than all targets. Also imp LoH would do nothing to mitigate the nonelemental damage.
I know this thread is focused mostly on spec right now, but I would like to pull it back to gemming post 3.2 for a moment. I know that the new Nightmare Tear (+10 Stats) is the preferred gem to use to activate your meta, but because it still hasn't become Unique-Equipped like some people thought, I was wondering how large of a socket bonus would you be looking at in order to justify using a Nightmare Tear to get the socket bonus over using a Bold Cardinal Ruby and ignoring the bonus.
I ask this because many current pieces are red+blue or red+orange sockets with 4-6 strength as the bonus. With several current Ulduar and some Coliseum pieces showing up to 8 strength as the bonus I would like to know if this is a viable alternative.
Ive been trying to input the Nightmare Tear as a custom gem in Rawr and use it in current gear but it keeps crashing when I try and do that, and the math that converts Agi=melee crit then Int to spell crit and applies them to the correct portions of your DPS keeps messing up and i keep coming up with different results each time.
Basically I am asking for someone smarter than myself to tell me if I should resocket my Battlelord's plate boots and Belt of the Titans with Nightmare Tears on patch day, and also to get a general rule of thumb for comparing Coliseum gear as it becomes available.
I know this thread is focused mostly on spec right now, but I would like to pull it back to gemming post 3.2 for a moment. I know that the new Nightmare Tear (+10 Stats) is the preferred gem to use to activate your meta, but because it still hasn't become Unique-Equipped like some people thought, I was wondering how large of a socket bonus would you be looking at in order to justify using a Nightmare Tear to get the socket bonus over using a Bold Cardinal Ruby and ignoring the bonus.
I ask this because many current pieces are red+blue or red+orange sockets with 4-6 strength as the bonus. With several current Ulduar and some Coliseum pieces showing up to 8 strength as the bonus I would like to know if this is a viable alternative.
Ive been trying to input the Nightmare Tear as a custom gem in Rawr and use it in current gear but it keeps crashing when I try and do that, and the math that converts Agi=melee crit then Int to spell crit and applies them to the correct portions of your DPS keeps messing up and i keep coming up with different results each time.
Basically I am asking for someone smarter than myself to tell me if I should resocket my Battlelord's plate boots and Belt of the Titans with Nightmare Tears on patch day, and also to get a general rule of thumb for comparing Coliseum gear as it becomes available.
With 5/5 Divine Strength and BoK, a Nightmare Tear yields 25.3 AP, .21% Crit, .06 Spell Crit, and 4~ MP5 versus 50.6 AP with a Bold Cardinal Ruby.
Now, depending on where you are in terms of gear, the AGI:STR equivalency ratio is different. On average, I'd say it's somewhere between 3:1 and 5:2, meaning you need socket bonus of 6-7 Strength to reach a rough DPS equivalency. An 8 Strength socket bonus from a Blue gem would almost always warrant a Nightmare Tear. However, I doubt Nightmare Tears will remain not unique.
Still eager for some paladins on PTR to test Judgement stacking. 3.1 proved that sometimes you could stack multiple of the same judgement (search the 3.1 thread if necessary) - the "sometimes" component wasn't narrowed down specifically, but could be related to JotJ and HotC. Since HotC and JotJ have been tweaked to ensure new paladins judging do not remove them, does this affect stacking?
Would two paladins with access to the PTR's latest build find a non-test-dummy target and run some tests regarding using the same Judgement.
1) Will two JoL stack (two debuffs on one mob)? If so, do both proc (4% - 2% twice) from an individual hit, or will only one proc?
2) Will JoW stack? If it stacks, can you find any occurrences of a double-proc?
3) Do judgements stack every time? Never? Sometimes?
Rock: "We're sub-standard DPS. Nerf Paper, Scissors are fine."
Paper: "OMG, WTF, Scissors!"
Scissors: "Rock is OP and Paper are QQers. We need PvP buffs."
On live it is capped, though it ends up lasting longer then it should for some reason, but it does end early. This was most noticeable on pre-nerf P2 Mimiron hard mode. Where it would normally last ~6 seconds, still absorbing way more then 150% cap. So then Imp LoH would have a higher uptime, and would probably be better if your goal was to maximize tanks benefit (depending on fight of course).
My DiSac should absorb around 37,000, but during Frozen Blows it consistently absorbs 50-60k. Perhaps it is because the damage comes in so fast that it spills over the cap.
The Nightmare Tear will be unique in 3.2. Perhaps you could have both a Nightmare and an Enchanted at the same time, but the 10 Str blue gem is better than a +6 to all stats gem, even accounting for being able to use the 21 crit meta.
E: To the people saying "When min/max situations occur, PoJ>Vindication by a mile", unless there is a Protection Pally around, I don't agree with that (perhaps Prot Pallies will be more popular with the new cheat death talent). Warriors/Bears rarely talent their AP reduction (so that is around -410), so being able to remove another -164 AP is valuable, especially at a low cost. The only advantage I see of the Shouts is on mob packs (DivStorm may not get up the debuff on all the mobs), or if the Ret needs to stop attacking the boss for more than 15 seconds (to kill many adds or run from fire, etc.).
Last edited by frmorrison : 07/20/09 at 1:01 PM.
Millions of words are written annually purporting to tell how to beat the races, whereas the best possible advice on the subject is found in the three monosyllables: 'Do not try.'
Is the 5% damage from Seals of the Pure added to the SoV damage tooltip?
Was looking at the tooltip on the PTR today and it listed the damage component at 38%.
Good thing they fixed the bug with SotP not affecting our seal procs. Shouldn't this also slightly change the pawn values, with a bit more value for Haste and less value for ArP, among other things?
On a different note: Has anybody tested the proc rate of the new SoV Libram after it was deleted and made buyable with Badges of Triumph? If so, how high is the proc rate? Is it still as ridiculous as before?
My raid's DiSacs regularly absorb in excess of 100k health (observe the healing breakdown of the paladins from this steelbreaker last parse), but on some fights it and HoS just plain don't function properly. Mimiron is the prime example - just using hand of sacrifice + bubble on a tank in p1 during plasma blast, regularly the HoS will fall off after a couple of ticks. Meanwhile on Vezax it can be safely used as a cooldown for surge of darkness and hasn't ever in my experience fallen off prematurely, even if transferring more than the cap. Assuming this functionality remains in 3.2 and there aren't more oddballs like mimiron, I can't imagine losing a point in Divine Sacrifice as any spec of paladin, even if we don't take Divine Guardian on top of it.
I spent a few hours last week trying to get DiSac to break and couldn't. I had a few people nuking down a player in my group and then tried jumping out of my vehicle on FL+4 and I got the full duration every time. It be pretty nice if someone could figure out why it breaks early for some people sometimes.
Edit for log of attempts to break it with PvP damage.
With the changes in 3.2 about CS, how the Libram of Radiance will be affected? I mean, it will become better or worse than on live.
The damage was lowered to match the lower CD of CS - it only increases the damage by 98 now after all boni. There should be no reason to prefer it over the new SoV libram because Libram of Radiance was very mediocre to begin with.
With the changes in 3.2 about CS, how the Libram of Radiance will be affected? I mean, it will become better or worse than on live.
As was said, you want the new SoV libram in 3.2 (you can get badges from Heroics and raids) as your first purchase. To answer the question, the libram does get better (about 10 dps, this includes the damage nerf), but it is still below the Deadly libram.
Millions of words are written annually purporting to tell how to beat the races, whereas the best possible advice on the subject is found in the three monosyllables: 'Do not try.'
I spent a few hours last week trying to get DiSac to break and couldn't. I had a few people nuking down a player in my group and then tried jumping out of my vehicle on FL+4 and I got the full duration every time. It be pretty nice if someone could figure out why it breaks early for some people sometimes.
Edit for log of attempts to break it with PvP damage.
I used it on Hodir tonight, lasted full duration and my SCT was filled with 0s the entire time it was up.
I don't really understand the breakdown of worldoflogs for divine sacrifice but according to it, I absorbed 189941 damage. The other ret paladin absorbed 205915 and our Prot paladin absorbed 199740.
E: To the people saying "When min/max situations occur, PoJ>Vindication by a mile", unless there is a Protection Pally around, I don't agree with that (perhaps Prot Pallies will be more popular with the new cheat death talent). Warriors/Bears rarely talent their AP reduction (so that is around -410), so being able to remove another -164 AP is valuable, especially at a low cost. The only advantage I see of the Shouts is on mob packs (DivStorm may not get up the debuff on all the mobs), or if the Ret needs to stop attacking the boss for more than 15 seconds (to kill many adds or run from fire, etc.).
If our holy paladin is still planning on using a holy/ret build I plan on skipping might and picking up vindication, probably putting the left over point into SoC. I'm not sure how the prot build will work, but luckily we have a protection paladin also, so hopefully I don't have to miss out on PoJ just yet.
People are still saying that they're seeing it break early, despite bubbling first. Exemplar posted back in May about the 3.12 fix to divine sacrifice and it seemed to get sort of lost in the shuffle.
So it sounds like Divine Sac is designed to function until you actively take the required % of your health for it to expire, or the timer ends. Taking no damage during the bubble means DivSac should absorb 30/40% of eligible (in range) raid damage.
The reason for previous data not matching (early break) was when the paladin popping Sac took direct (not redirected) damage then Sac immediately ended, or if you only took 20% max health on one DivSac, next would only do 130% max (not resetting to 150%). This latter was probably why some Bubble+Sac logs were below expected - a previous partial absorb left the new absorb less than maximum.
With this fixed (assuming it is) then Bubble should provide full Divine Sacrifice absorption (30/40% raid damage) for 10 seconds every single time.
The divine sacrifice mechanic seems to have always been less understood than most things around here, but can anyone post logs showing it it breaking early since the fix (on live or PTR)?
The divine sacrifice mechanic seems to have always been less understood than most things around here, but can anyone post logs showing it it breaking early since the fix (on live or PTR)?
Pre-nerf Mimiron hard mode on World of Logs, change filter to Aura, spell name "Divine Sacrifice". The first ones in P2 from me and Xyrm both lasted 6-7 seconds. The second set of casts in P4 are a skewed since we overlapped.
Pre-nerf Mimiron hard mode on World of Logs, change filter to Aura, spell name "Divine Sacrifice". The first ones in P2 from me and Xyrm both lasted 6-7 seconds. The second set of casts in P4 are a skewed since we overlapped.
I suspect that it's World of Logs screwing up. DS is fading over a large period of time for mulitple players in your log.
The following log is of me and another Ret using Divine Sacrifice during Animus.
07/19/09, 8:04 PM
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