[23:25:52.137] Xyrm casts Divine Sacrifice
...
[23:25:59.731] Tluas's Divine Sacrifice fades
[23:25:59.793] Latito's Divine Sacrifice fades
[23:25:59.793] Kold's Divine Sacrifice fades
[23:25:59.793] Ryuuk's Divine Sacrifice fades <<< when most of your Divine Sacrifices fade
[23:26:00.590] Xyrm takes 0 damage from Cyniel's Divine Sacrifice
[23:26:00.590] Xyrm takes 0 damage from Cyniel's Divine Sacrifice
[23:26:00.981] Xyrm takes 0 damage from Cyniel's Divine Sacrifice
[23:26:01.293] Cyniel's Divine Sacrifice fades <<< huh?
[23:26:01.371] Xyrm takes 0 damage from Cyniel's Divine Sacrifice
[23:26:01.371] Xyrm takes 0 damage from Cyniel's Divine Sacrifice

Cyniel's Divine Sacrifice fades much later than the rest of the raid, he has three absorbs in a few miliseconds and then two additional absorbs after Divine Sacrifice "fades". To me this seems to suggest some sort of latency issue or bug with WoL.

I would just like to point out that since most people will not be getting DS in 3.2, especially with the unquestionable loss of DG, that this discussion probably belongs in the 3.1 thread. Even more so because the data points used are from 3.1, and not the PTR.

You don't seem to understand how sites like WoL work. WoL doesn't reshuffle the parse. It reads a combat log output (which is exactly the same for everyone in attendance, that's the way it's coded to work), and reformats the text to be more user-friendly. Then it takes that data and makes pretty graphs and summaries. It in NO WAY would do anything like that. It could be lag, but it's definitely not WOL.

In addition, seeing absorbs happen after my DS fades is not unheard of. Ever hear a healer complain that their heal landed, but the tank still died? The combat log is going to be desynced, that's just the way stuff happens.

I thought it might be a range issue, but Latito and Kold were melee, and they would always have been quite close to me.

Regardless, I fail to see where lag factors in to your arguement. Even if it took a while longer for the damage to register, the totals would have been the same. The fact that it ended early means a cap was hit, even though I clearly took 0 damage from it.

Understood. We'll keep it to the 3.1 thread.

Certainly 2/2 Divine Guardian won't be in a standard spec, but Divine Sacrifice isn't an undue burden for a Retribution Paladin to pick up with some sort of variant of 5/11/55. No DPS talents would be sacrificed. The only issue is that you can't pick up 2/2 Vindication, 2/2 Imp Might, and 2/2 PoJ at the same time. One of those three talents would have to remain at 1/2.

We've already seen a situational application of DS in 3.2. During Anub'arak's final burn phase it will absorb an enormous amount of damage.

While you may not get DiSac, I certainly will have it. I enjoy "healing" via AoE absorption as a dps spec. It will take more than 7% run speed, potential removal of the damage cap ignore (WoL shows 10 seconds every time), and it only being 30% (for Ret) absorb.

How are you doing your talents so that you can't get DiSac?

A 5/11/54 build covers all of our DPS needs and still fits DiSac in. For more utility switch a few points from Divinity around to Stoicism, Guardian's Favor, and take the last point in Vindication instead of the two in POJ.

The buffs Divine Guardian give, while nice, don't make Divine Sacrifice (or Sacred Shield) useless.

DiSac, depending on the situation, might be better to have at 30% instead of 40%, if the cap is fixed to actually be at the paladin's 150% health mark. The reason is that it could last a bit longer due to absorbing less damage per person. True, when you're using it the raid will be taking a lot of damage and the extra time might be a fraction of a second, but we might as well look at it as a buff, right?

WRONG. Pursuit of Justice is not only a DPS talent, but one of the better ones, too. Do your math. Looking over your achievements, you have not had the (dis)pleasure of doing pre-nerf M'uru or RNGalon, or much of Ulduar for that matter. Have you tried the instance in 3.2? Feel free to watch my Algalon-25 kill video (Filefront / Youtube) and tell me with a straight face afterwords you still think PoJ is not a DPS talent.

It really confuses me why this discussion regarding PoJ keeps coming up every time our talents are about to change. The DK thread had the same issue. On virtually any fight in Ulduar, and from what I've seen in TotC, IT IS ONE OF YOUR HIGHEST DPS TALENTS. In fact, run speed talents are some of the highest DPS gains for ANY melee class. That's what made the old Unholy Aura for DKs so rediculous. Allow me to once again spell it out in math:

Lets assume you do 5k DPS if you have 100% attack time on a boss. This is MUCH lower than it is for me, but I'm doing this to prove a point.

Let's also assume you have to move between targets for a total of 60 seconds in a 5 minute long fight (much like Anub'arak, in TotC, or pretty much any ulduar fight except Vezax and Deconstructor) if you didn't have PoJ (that's 51 seconds with 2/2 PoJ).

That's 9 seconds, or 45k damage gained. On a 5 minute fight, that's 75 dps, a 1.5% gain or .75% per talent. While this may seem a bit low, compare it to swift retribution or one of the many other paltry gains from our talents, and see where that leaves you. Also keep in mind the DPS was low-balled, and doesn't take in other factors, such as more time for RV to tick on short-lived mobs, or a chance to hit DS a second time on an AoE pack where you previously couldn't have. Lets also not forget that the side effects of PoJ lead to more personal survivability for you, and holy paladins will likely be picking it up (fully improved) next patch. For my talents, I will only be putting 10 points in protection, and go 5/10/56, getting full Vindication, PoJ, and Imp BoM. My dual talents may potentially have a point shifted into the crappy DS, but if I take points out, it's going to be from BoM, and let our DPS warrior give an improved shout.

In 3.2, I wholeheartily disagree. In 3.2, we no longer inflict damage to ourselves, so the best use of SS would have been on a tank. However, in 3.2 SS will no longer stack on the same target. Putting it on yourself every 30 seconds, with limited GCDs, is going to be a hefty DPS loss, and in my mind entirely not worth it. As for DS, it still may have a use... but with holy pallies getting the buff they are, my guild will like run with at least 2 at all times. Because of that, I really don't see a situation where a 3rd, worse one will be needed on any fight, as even with the insanity of AoE damage in ulduar, you really only ever need one at most. Plus, from my experience on PTR, ToTC is just as faceroll as naxx was, with rediculously better loot than Ulduar. The AoE damage is paltry, at best. Trust me, you won't need it.

No need to be so patronising, PoJ is in the talent build he posted afterall...

Staying on topic, you should be using SS on tanks only NOW, recoil is completely insignificant with around 27-29k hp buffed.

To the poster above, Ulduar AoE was only nasty early in the patch, pre-nerfs and with much lower hp on the raid, think he's basing his ToTC AoE assumption on the normal 25man mode also, which is simply a joke, the 2 hardmodes I've tried in ToTC both have very high AoE Damage(Twins and the Demon guy).

If you have a holy paladin around, in 3.2, that would most likely be a mistake, as the holy SS will absorb more damage. There's also the matter of the FoL buff, but I'm not sure how much we'll be using FoL on tanks in 3.2.

In 3.1, it's debatable. You're trading a bigger absorb consistently, but only one in 4-6 seconds (with/without T8) for two in 4/6 seconds, but with the possibility of the first one (the only one which will be consumed most of the time) to be smaller. I guess it's a good thing, since you get more absorbs when it really matters, i.e. in a bad avoidance streak.

Zurm is referring to hard modes (since his guild does them regularly). All of the Keeper Hard modes have insane AoE (using DiSac, I my highest absorb is 10 seconds is 176,000 damage on IC Steelbreaker last, which meant there was 44,000 per second on 25 people total going out).

Algalon/Yogg doesn't have much AoE though, it is more a tank/dps check. Heroic modes in 3.2 has insane AoE too.

Yeah, I was referring to pre-nerf fights. Mimiron is a joke now, they literally halved ALL of his AoE damage.

As for PTR, being on US, I've only actually gotten to fight Anub'arak (both modes, and even in hard mode the AoE damage at the end doesn't have to be fully healed because it's a portion of your remaining health), northren beasts, and champions. Both had paltry raid damage. I haven't tried Lord jaraxxus or the twins, but from what I have seen of the twins in video's the AoE damage seemed pretty tame compared to even a live version of mimiron. or algalon.

Algalon most certainly does have a lot of AoE damage. Yogg does not.

Also, sorry if I sound(ed) patronizing, I've seen the discussion of movement speed talents/buffs/enchants pop up repeatedly every major patch (for two classes) with new posters, and it's a bit frustrating for me! Anyone who's played melee for any considerable amount of time should immediately recognize the value of it.

I know that the current topic is DS but I have a question regarding weapon weights. Traditionally Paladins have looked for the slowest weapon at any given dps. With the changes in 3.2 does this continue to be the 'wise' move or is more weight to be given to over all stats. and yes i know im generalizing, but as an example the 239 2-handers, Vlodrathar and Depraved Edge...how will they compare in 3.2?

[quote=Zurm;1323241Also, sorry if I sound(ed) patronizing, I've seen the discussion of movement speed talents/buffs/enchants pop up repeatedly every major patch (for two classes) with new posters, and it's a bit frustrating for me! Anyone who's played melee for any considerable amount of time should immediately recognize the value of it.[/QUOTE]

I put POJ in the build I posted for a very specific reason: I know it's a very nice DPS talent on top of the added convenience of just plain moving faster when not in raids. Also note that the "utility" suggestions I gave still has one point in it, having shifted it from POJ into Vindication if absolutely needed because a Prot pally isn't around.

You're right in that us using SS on ourselves is a DPS loss, but given how many of the raid damage mechanics work there won't be a need to have it up constantly anyway. For Ret it's "just in case" thanks to Blood/Martyr no longer being available. Not all of us have the luxury of having top-end raiding groups, so every little bit helps.

As for DiSac, again every little bit helps. Even with other paladins in group who have it, only you can guarantee it'll be available consistently. Might as well use it if the raid will benefit.

By the way, what build would you suggest since you don't seem to want DiSac?

Unfortunately I was not able to actually view your build at work (mmo talent calc doesn't work for me at work... IE6 FTW?), so I made an [incorrect] assumption. After discussing it with my raid leader/MT and the other pallies, I will be using two specs, depending on the encounter:

5/10/56
5/12/54

By picking up vindication, I free our warrior from sacrificing threat for debuffs. The DPS is without a doubt the strongest aspect of VM (unlike most guilds, the enrage timer was not our issue on Algalon, and the first attempt everyone survived was the attempt that we killed it... with time to spare), and as such our tanks have to stay on top of threat, which can be challenging even with WOTLK's joke of threat mechanics, especially early on a target. By picking up might, I free the holy pallies from picking up Imp BoM, which allows them to both use the holy/prot spec they feel will be ideal (with a fully improved DS/SS).

I think people are overestimating the benefit of SotP. It is only a 3% dps increase for 5 points, and although that is fine and all, it isn't the end of the world to simply not take those points to boost your defensive abilities. Having a build like This costs you 3% of your damage but retains the additional raid defensive talents in prot and gets you either Imp BOM or Vindication. If you are required to maintain HotC, Imp BoM and Vindication you should probably trash the points in prot beyond 11 and chuck your extras into SotP, but avoiding the holy tree completely does give some substantial benefit at the cost of raw dps.

Obviously in 10s in particular the Holy tree points are unlikely because you really want all the points in prot and ret (unlikely to be duplicated) but in 25s they still have a lot of merit.

I can understand an argument for not *needing* the points in SotP. However, for those of us that min-max (as we must for harder content), 3% damage from one person can, believe it or not, mean the difference between a kill and a wipe. Utility is nice, but it's almost never needed, especially in WOTLK where almost any buff/utility can be duplicated in some fashion, or the need to use it prevented.

After the discussion, I guess I would drop to 1/2 imp Might with the 5/11/55 spec, since Zurm is right that 3% more damage can be the difference between a win or loss.
If I am the only Pally I will be doing Kings, and if another Pally is there they can do Might/Wisdom. This assumes Holy wants to pickup Ret subspec, picking up imp Might. I would use 1/2 Might for soloing (since Might is better than Kings solo), since in a raid someone else would have to buff it.

I use my off-spec for Holy.

I know we can promote Judgement priority if mana is an issue, what are the rules for demoting it on low count sov stacks? Is the difference between 0 and 5 stacks significant enough to merit demotion?

[edit]Since the judgement is set to be the second thing used on a new target, there is not time to fully stack it. Should we delay the first judgement 1-2 GCD's so it will be fully stacked?

No. Getting to 5 stacks on a single target won't take more than a few seconds, so there should be no need to worry about the difference each stack might give to our priority list.

You seem to be implying that I don't min max because I am using my talents for something other than dps, which I think is a faulty assumption. I am min maxing my raid's success rather than min maxing my personal dps contribution. By your logic if I spent one talent point to reduce all damage dealt to raid members by 50% I would be not min maxing because it lowers the talents I can spend on dps. Clearly there is a point where a talent designed to defend the raid instead of deliver damage is useful enough to warrant lowering personal dps and I feel the 11th-17th points in prot meet that standard.

Reducing raid damage by 30-40% during a high damage period is incredibly powerful and allows you to power through situations that otherwise would end up killing raid member(s) or requiring additional healers. Adding another Sacred Shield to the tanks is hugely impactful as it can regularly contribute as much damage prevention as 15% of an entire healer. If you asked whether or not I would trade 5% of one dpser for 15% of a healer and a completely insane raid saving cooldown, that is clearly a fantastic trade. There will clearly be fights where your regular lineup of healers does not need help, but there will also be fights where you can avoid adding a healer because you have your insane cooldown to mitigate a boss special or rough patch of damage.

There are many situations where you can see this in action from Thorim hard at high stacks to Vezax Animus phase near the end. Another example is Hodir where our solo healer died at 25% and my Sac allowed the raid (and tank) to survive long enough to tear off the rest of his health without anyone even dying. These situations aren't utility that can be duplicated nor are they unique.

Another part of this to keep in mind is the cost of someone else bringing a debuff. Vindication requires no in combat resources or thought while Demoralizing Shout/Roar do. BoM is preferable to Battle Shout because it does not require rebuffing and will stay the entire duration even should the buffer die or go out of range. Both of those also require talents points to maximize for the warrior/druid which could potentially be used elsewhere.

Clearly maximizing damage is extremely important, but ignoring any other benefit you can bring to the raid in favor of personal dps increases is not the optimal way to improve your guild's success.

I don't believe Xyrm is aruging Divine Sacrifice / Guardian in 3.1 - it's indisputably worth the talent points if you're doing hard modes.

It's difficult to debate the value of a 30% Divine Sacrifice in 3.2 until we have more information. What we see now on the PTR may be significantly under tuned. The "heroic" mode may add gimmicks that we won't be given a chance to test. My gut tells me there's going to be a lot of predictable AOE since it is a tried and true Blizzard method of making healing "challenging."

Anub'arak's burn phase, especially on hard mode, seems like the perfect place for Divine Sacrifice. In addition to Leeching Swarm, there is AOE damage from Penetrating Cold. You're also absorbing significant amounts of tank damage at the point where healers are stressed the most. On 25 man normal mode Anub'arak, my DS absorbed 202927.

If you are playing dps spec, you are expected to get the maximum dps potential from your talents at least, otherwise you just fail as dps. "But im buffing the raid and have great utility!" is an argument no one buys this days when you have to justify too low for your level of gear dps performance, especially in Ulduar where most of the hard modes are insane dps race.

Providing utility while keeping your dps output on max or close to max = right.
Providing utility while notably sacrificing your dps potential = wrong.

So by your logic, if you could keep Divine Shield w/imp Divine Sacrifice up 100% of the time, that would not be worth the 50% DPS reduction you get during Divine Shield? Of course it's worth it; you could replace several healers with DPS classes with a permanent Sacrifice on the raid.

Bottom line: It's situational. Sometimes sacrificing DPS for defensive CDs is worth it. Other times it's not. Usually, the scenarios can be divided into:
- Bosses where you need to beat some sort of timer (enrage timer, bring-down-the-adds-fast-enough-before-something-bad-happens, etc).
- Bosses where AoE damage on the raid is likely going to be the biggest problem.

I will personally have two specs to fit those two scenarios: One similar to my current one, where I have a lot of defensive CDs, and one where I min/max DPS 100%.