Just a FYI for pvp purposes. You are correct that Judgement of Command also procs Seal of Command. I just tested it to be sure. I also wanted to test my burst damage with Seal of Command so I put on my pvp gear and hit target dummies for only 1 global cooldown to see what the best I could get was.

Against an Expert's Training Dummy my best burst using SoC was 13,208 damage.

Crusader Strike - 4223 (crit)
Seal of Command - 2112
Darkmoon Card: Death - 2376
Melee - 4497 (crit)

Considering a normal person with 10% damage/crit reduction or around ~800 resiliance. This would of knocked off 1320 damage and also possibly prevented the crits in the first place further reducing the value of a ret paladin as burst is the only option we have.

But it could work on pets as long as they don't have you targeted?

With the reduced cooldown and no reduction in mana costs to Crusader Strike, does this make the glyph one of our good choices, or will it still be a resounding 'meh'?

Mainly wondering whether it'll beat out Consecration for mana saving.

Perhaps, though I don't particularly see them letting that hit live. It would need to be tested.

Consecration is nearly the most important glyph we can run with now. With the GCD clash problems we're seeing with the new CS its going to be very important for the duration extension alone.

The buff doesn't have any internal cooldowns or anything?

My prelim math is showing that SoR with SotP and Sheath of Light beats SoC. So SoC is leveling until you can get both Sheath and SotP, then it's crap for everything. SoV is of course the winner, but stupid SoR is decidedly superior to SoC at 80.

In short, beyond mid-range levels or for glyph mana return SoC is still useless - PvE or PvP.

I expect major SotP change - potentially to do something entirely different than it currently does.


HamSlammer - can you test the following:
SoV on two targets. Stack to 5. Now target a friendly target (yourself?) and DS. Do you produce friendly fire or does the damage disappear?

Edit: Followup - if it does hurt you, please try bubbling and doing it to yourself.

It seems like there are alot of reports of both increases and decreases in PVE DPS based on the changes made. (The current consensus being the PVP Ret is hurting fairly badly right now unless able to stack SoV on a PVP target... which eliminates target switching in most cases. Edit: SoC damage is just pathetic.)

Does anyone have any comparable parses in actual PVE encounters for comparisons? I've managed to work out some basic math (completely based on current numbers) that puts the FCFS rotation to:

Prior to 5 stacks:
CS > DS > Judge >Exo > DP (Concecration used when there is an open CD)

After 5 stacks (sustained DPS):
Judge > CS > DS >Exo > DP (Concecration used when there is an open CD)

After 5 stacks (burning DPS):
Judge > DS > Exo > CS > DP (Concecration used when there is an open CD)

The change to CS makes it hit paltry compared to other abilities when burning a target; however always having it on CD means you're hitting more often. The problem is; it's also eating up mana at a horrid rate. Thus the Judgement priority. The rotation isn't so much more complex as it is just utter chaos. Use what is available but with so many GCD clashes it just seems like the chaos is going to hurt us more than Blizzard hoped the 'buffs' were going to help.

These are all basic numbers; will try and formulate some better stuff once I get home. Will try to post any numbers I devise.

You people really aren't getting this at all. Quoting from the 3.2 patch notes:

# Hand of Reckoning: Redesigned. Now does damage only when target does not currently have the caster targeted, but damage done increased to 50% of attack power, occurring after the taunt effect is applied.

That Taunt effect has to be applied for the damaging portion to activate by design. When a target is immune to taunts it will do nothing because the target does not get a taunting effect applied. If it does apply it means the target also just turned and smacked you in the nose, and the usual proverb of "a dead DPS does 0 DPS" comes into play.

Take HoR off your bars and stop trying to model it into our DPS rotations. It doesn't belong there, and if for some reason it isn't working like intended you can be positive the devs will be fixing it quickly.

My apologies. My earlier testing was probably just inaccurate.

Can someone try to confirm exactly when and if the damage will be applied?

Why is this even a topic of discussion? It works exactly as it does on live, all they did was increase the damage so it can be used as a burst threat tool at the beginning of a fight to make up for the cast time given to Exorcism. Even if you're trying to confirm that the damage is not applied to a target that has the caster targeted, it's irrelevant to Ret's DPS cycle and therefore doesn't belong in this thread.

Just to let you guys know Hand of Reckoning does not work at all in PVP. I tested it on multiple pets that didnt have me targeted and it did no damage but still applied the taunt.

As for using it in PVE, I can think of quite a few current encounters we can use it on.
-Razorscale when he is grounded but before kite phase
-Hodir mobs
-Thorim Arena on the lesser targets
-Maybe XT-Decon Heart?
-Malygos when he goes into the air

It's still nothing great for us, but atleast we can play around with it.