Well, if you can avoid it, by all means, do so. But due to itemisation, you sometimes don't have a choice. (eg: when hit/exp capped, the mail crafted boots become best untill algalon loot, and those have arp)
As for 3.2, I don't see any mechanics that change the benefit of ArP for us, and there should be new stat weighs somewhere in this topic.

With such a terrible Ramp up time, when officer's look at the Damage Done to XT's Heart, or Yogg's Brain (which they do), we're going to be at the very bottom and quite easily asked to sit out... or whenever we have to move out due to AoE dmg and hence let SoV fall off...

Come 3.2, on AoE bosses we will be at the bottom as well (i.e. Thorim arena), some of the few fights which yielded our best performance.

So now we suck at Single target AND AoE DPS... good grief

I don't know what Blizz is thinking, our single target DPS had finally been fixed, and now THIS, one week form launch?

If this is being done for PvP reasons, then just disable SoV from PVP like you did with Exorcism, sure its a bandage, but Blizz has got to stop balancing the game around PVP for goodness sake.

EDIT_____________________________________
I don't really know if the encounters in 3.2 will be like the ones I mentioned here, but unless they are tank and spank, we just got nerfed to the ground baby... again...

Was this test done in a single target situation? How much uptime would you need for a fight with say 2-3 targets in DPS range a majority of the time? Or how about if we are only able to DPS a certain target for say 20-30 seconds and then we swap back to aoeing trash? For example Mimiron hm Phase 1 and 2 I could see us using SOV (perhaps bubble when frost bomb goes in P2 to keep your stacks up) However in Phase 3 I am never on a target more than 20-30 seconds tops usually it is more like 15 seconds. Phase 4 of course you have 3 parts of the body to AOE. I see P3 and P4 as SOR fights...

Like Zurm said in TOTGC we are swapping targets but we are also aoeing targets for extended periods of time in most the fights. Having no seal procs on any of those targets will be crap and tab targeting to keep them up with auto attacks will not hold well on the human element side of things.

I think 28% uptime required for SOV is too generous to give because even in that case there are very few fights where we just run in and out or swap between just two mobs. What it comes down to is the same reason they gave Rogues FOK and Spriests an AOE skill. The new raid encounters have tons of adds who are very important to the fight and live a long time or spawn rapidly.

delete

28% is 28%. If you have 4 equal targets you need an average of 28% to break even. Whether that's 100% on one, 12% on another, and none on the rest, or 28% on each of the four in sequence - you've barely broken even.

If you're constantly running back and forth, never hitting 5 stacks - 0% is less than 28%.

There's no pretty way to look at it. SoV is great in a Patchwerk robot theorycraft world. In a normal fight with target swapping and movement, it's hamstrung.

Again, at the least the DoT effect needs an extremely extended "shelf life" on the target to allow for movement and target swaps (knowing you'll suck until you return to this target).

Yet another solution suggestion - allow Exorcism to apply a 5stack. You can't burst/swap this all over the place due to the cooldown on Exo, coincidentally identical to the DoT duration. Benefit - it would actually cause the GCD cast time of Exo be worth it on run-in. The boost to all your other attacks would for once outweigh the GCD lost. You also suddenly add thought - "Do I want to save my (Instant) Exo for the target swap or burn it for damage on current target?" Unfortunately I don't see this happening for a stupid reason: tooltip. Having to add the extra wording about Exorcism adding 5 stacks to a target on the tooltip will make it "too confusing."

Hell, I'm hoping for a last minute SoV Glyph change allowing all attacks to apply the DoT. We can pick up Expertise elsewhere damn easily.

To be frank, damage done to constructs during the Ignis fight is fluff damage plain and simple. It doesn't help get the boss dead in any way since the constructs should be getting shattered anyway, they have far too much health for the incidental damage from DS+SoB to have anything more than a slight impact in their health pool. However, your other examples ring perfectly true, except possibly life sparks- that would depend on how ones guild handles them.

In the end this change is quite simply disgusting. If Blizzard is looking to add ramp-up time to the amazing DPS that SoV could bring, the method they should be pursuing is one mentioned earlier in this thread- instead of increasing the time it takes to stack a debuff on your target that needs to be put up on EVERY target a ret pally wants to kill, simply change the SoV stack to be a dispellable buff that builds on the pally and causes weapon strikes to inflict extra holy damage, or auto-tack on the stack of the DoT effect. Much like the original incarnation of a fury warrior's Rampage, a pally would need to build the stack up once or more, but not EVERY time, to continue effective DPS.

The thought of using glyphed SoR in place of an actual damage seal is rather unsettling, but nonetheless a better alternative for most fights than using the current aberration that is SoV on the PTR, should Blizzard be foolish enough to let it go live as such.

Stay away from blatant whining about being nerfed TO THE GROUND, or the hammer is going to come down. Constructive discussion and analysis about this is welcome.

They won't do that though. The entire point of this change is to make SoV completely unusable in PvP to shoehorn SoC into being used for something... anything. They succeeded brilliantly in that issue, but it crippled PvE on anything except Patchwerk as a result.

More likely we'll see some sort of mechanic to either allow us to spread stacks (a la Pestilence) or a way to stack it faster but still slow enough that it doesn't affect PvP (allowing one special to stack it, most likely CS or DS).

I don't think that is true, I think the note just meant that the dot landing and refreshing/stacking is based on melee hit mechanics (which was true since start of ptr), not that it does physical damage. All spell damage regardless their source is subjected to level based partial resists.

If Paladins get another spell, it would likely be an interrupt. Pestilence going to remain DK-only, so perhaps the devs will allow just one special to stack up SoV. Since HoR has the code to stack up SoV, it should be hot fixable.

The DoT component of SoV keeps being both holy and partially resisted (boss target dummy in the PTR, a few minutes ago):

My (maybe slightly vague) question based on these two statements would have to be ; Does swapping a libram mid-combat remove the given Libram's Buff, or incur an ICD for a libram with an ICD?

Based on the very slight extension of the GCD if you macro it, and the assumption that you do not lose the buff when changing librams, would not the optimal setup be to have BOTH librams, and then macro (as an example) the following setup?

With a cast of Divine Storm, equip the Gladiator Libram.
With a cast of Crusader Strike, equip the Emblem Libram.

Since the gladiator libram has an uptime of 10 seconds, and DS a C/D of 10 seconds, you can generally estimate that every time you cast DS, you would be about to need to refresh the libram buff. Granted with C/D clashes, you may want to macro this to a slightly shorter C/D ability, I.e. Judgement.

Once you cast Crusader Strike, you now have the libram buff, and so you are free to swap back to the emblem libram to hope for a proc.


This is of course completely reliant on the swap during GCD working, and that swapping the librams does not remove the buff. Edit : (And that you don't mash the heck out of the buttons and incur the swap before the GCD allows the spell cast)
I don't personally have the time to play on the PTR due to school, so I would appreciate if this would be tested by someone, if the answer is not already known.

Swapping a weapon or libram resets the swing timer. No, it is never worth it to macro that.

Capital. Indeed, it's just a wording change on their end, and a bad one at that.

I understand the intent, but it doesn't boost SoC. SoR is still superior to SoC unless mana regen via Glyph is necessary. Even without SotP if you glyph SoR (easy for PvP, since Consecration is unnecessary) it's in near distance of SoC. JoR also hits and crits for more than JoC - close to double. Burst on demand is probably more useful in PvP than a minor boost in seal damage.

This still leaves SoC as useless in every situation. Altering SoV does not change this fact, it merely impacts SoV usage - discouraging its use in PvP and again impacting PvE seriously. If they want SoC used in PvP, give it a buff - such as a snare effect and ditch JoJustice entirely.

If you do not have everything off cooldown, for example are pressuring someone in arena, and swap to a new target even with specials proccing it's probably about 8 seconds to stack to five. 3 auto attack and 2 CS or a CS+Judge. The autoattack won't even happen at 0 seconds, too, since it was active on your last target.

I understand and appreciate balance issues in PvP. Trying to poison an ability against PvP use almost invariably fails, the goal is to make other items desirable in PvP. SoC still lacks a home except when leveling, poor little thing.

I could see them tying it to just CS and AA, or just CS, but lowering the required DOT applications to 3. Personally, I like the idea of tying the 33% seal proc aspect to a self buff. This is all purely speculation though. What I do know is that AA's don't take much skill.

I am a first time poster and a long time reader.

Ah right, I forgot about the swing timer reset. Bummer, that's too bad.

I suppose if you ran a swing timer mod and watched it really closely? Ah, but that'd be ridiculous amounts of effort. Wasn't there a macro at some point that hunters used that kept them from clipping an auto shot with a steady shot (in TBC)? Perhaps an adaption of that would allow you to twist it periodically without completely destroying your white swings?

I don't remember exactly what functionality that macro involved, as I didn't pay attention to hunters. I suppose I could go hunting around trying to dig it up, though I'm not sure I'd find posts still from the Sunwell-ish time frame.

Perhaps I'm just horribly horribly mistaken about hunters using something to that effect in Sunwell. That could be too.

I'm seeing unconfirmed reports that the badge libram does in fact have a 45sec ICD. This would make it, as usual, worse than the PVP librams.

I am unable to access the PTR at the moment, but could someone who is running tests confirm or deny?

Eh, the PvP differences between SoR and SoC are more pronounced than PvE. For one, you can't afford points in SotP with a PvP spec. Secondly, attack power and spell power (the only two things SoR scales from) are lower in arena gear, while raw base weapon damage remains the same (extra point for SoC). I'm fairly sure even with the pittance that JoC is it will see use in PvP now.

Severely offtopic, and I apologize.

One of my guildie's is telling me that the proc chance was either reduced greatly or there's an ICD. I myself can't get on either so I'm not able to check at the moment though.

This was posted by a Paladin on the World of Warcraft forums.

I use an Ironsoul. I have 3515 AP, 1054 SP, and 17.40% haste, meaning I attack every 2.98 seconds. It will take me 11.9 2seconds to build a 5-stack of Holy Vengeance.

Not switching weapon scenario:

Combat:
0.00 - Autoattack, CS (1 stack)
1.5 - DS
2.98 - Auttoattack (2 stacks)
3.0 - Consecration, Holy Vengeance tick
4.5 - CS
5.96 - Autoattack (3 stacks)
6.0 - Exorcism if able, Holy Vengeance tick
8.5 - CS
8.94 - Autoattack (4 stacks)
9.0 - Holy Vengeance tick
11.92 - Autto-attack (5 stacks), CS
12.00 Holy Vengeance tick

Melee attacks: 1771 dmg x 5 attacks = 8855 physical damage.
CS: 1718 dmg x 4 attacks = 6872 physical damage
DS: 1948 dmg x 1 attack = 1948 physical damage
Holy Vengeance: 1 tick x 202 (2 stacks) + 1 tick x 303 (3 stacks) + 1 tick x 404 (4 stacks) +1 tick x 505 (5 stacks) = 1414 Holy Damage
Exorcism: 1776 x 1 attack = 1776 Holy damage
Consecration: 295 dmg x 8 ticks = 2360 Holy damage

Total damage: 23225 damage before mitigation


Switching weapons scenario:

I used the Dalaran Sword, I should add: [Dalaran Sword]

Combat:
0.0 - Autoattack (1 stack)
1.15 - Autoattack (2 stacks)
2.30 - Autoattack (3 stacks)
3.00 - Holy Vengeance tick
3.45 - Autoattack (4 stacks)
4.60 - Autoattack (5 stacks)
5.00 - Consecration + Weapon switch
6.00 - Holy Vengeance tick
6.50 - CS+SoV
7.98 - 2h Autoattack+SoV
8.00 - Judgment+SoV
9.00 - Holy Vengeance tick
9.50 - DS+SoV
10.96 - 2h Autoattack+SoV
11.0 - CS+SoV
12.0 - Holy Vengeance tick

1h Melee attacks: 277 dmg x 5 attacks = 1389 physical damage
2h Melee attacks: 1771 dmg x 2 attacks = 3542 physical damage
CS: 1718 dmg x 2 attacks = 3436 physical damage
DS: 1948 dmg x 1 attack = 1948 physical damage
Holy Vengeance: 1 tick x 202 (2 stacks w/ 1h weapon) + 3 ticks x 505 (5 stacks w/ 2h weapon) = 1717 Holy damage
SoV: 1771 dmg x 6 attacks = 10626 Holy damage
Consecration: 295 dmg x 7 ticks = 2065 Holy damage

Total Damage: 24723 damage before mitigation

This doesn't also count the fact that a lot of these attacks can crit, there is now Vengeance added in, etc.

How does this work out? He left out CS with 1H weapon to show that even without CS, 1H + switch pulls ahead.

Along the lines of the "suggestion" Snowy provided, while these suggestions of fixes and various complaints are all good-natured, they don't add to anything. While it's entirely possible Blizzard reads these forums, there's no way to know how often or by whom. Your best bet is to take these kinds of posts and bring them to the suggestion forum, where you KNOW a DEVELOPER will take a look at it, typically in a timely manner. They may not respond, but that forum is heavily moderated and I'm guessing it's read quite extensively.

Just trying to prevent the mass clutter we've had over the past few pages.

What IS constructive, however, is some proof-of-concepts on the DPS loss. Some hard numbers relating to boss fights, say from a WoL/WMO/WWS parse, which shows how often target swaps happen, and based on your attack speed at the time, what percentage of the fight you would spend ramping up the DOT instead of benefiting.

We know we already will see a big loss on things like Thorim P1. My argument (though I don't have the time to prove it out... I'm hoping one of you do) is that this is a nerf in virtually every existing fight in Ulduar compared to live.

Yet another piece of upsetting news. At 1/3 uptime, which I would expect with a 45 second ICD and a duration of 16 seconds, it's worth 66.7 strength, or 153 AP on average. Definitely worse than the 172 from arenas, which is extremely depressing. Not unheard of though... the badge libram is ilvl 245, and the arena one is 251.

Why did he model the SoV hits at 1771 damage? (100% of weapon damage) I think it "works out" because he made numbers up to prove his point.

Ah, I just noticed that. Thank you for pointing it out.

EDIT: Another interesting option is to use Shield of Righteousness during the 1H buildup. Although I highly doubt a 1H switch is the best move, I am looking forward to crunching some numbers when 3.2 is finalized.