So far the ptr patch notes make no mention of a change to the SotP talent, so wouldn't 5/5 SotP mean an "effective" 37.95% weapon damage SoV proc when fully stacked?
This should certainly show an increase in overall seal damage with the added JoV proc and 4s CS, even if the individual seal procs are < SoB.
Originally Posted by Vinsent
I think I might have the priorities wrong or something but here is my logic. The priority I'm using is CS > Judge > Cons > DS > Exo is that wrong?
[Avoiding double post] Originally I was thinking "yes, that looks right" but I just played around in Rawr 2.2.10, 3.2 mode w/ SoV, and after fiddling with the FCFS Simulator, the highest dps was given by: HoW > J > CS > DS = Cons > Exo. My overal dps is then 6053, and I don't know if J & CS would switch places depending on gear.
With all these recent changes to the SoV mehanics, are we still looking at an overall 8-15% dps increase on most boss fights without doing any seal twisting (I probably wont since I tend to suffer from premature burst aggro anyway)?
This is the first bit of recent news that's made me a happy camper. Granted we are losing our up front burst, it seems our burst gradually returns as we build up the SoV stack, and if this ends up being an overall dps boost (which it sounds like it is) I can live with that.
Now if they'd just let DS stack the SoV dot that would be a very reasonable compromise that would not be OP. This would put the ramp up time at roughly 10 seconds regardless of haste gear, would allow for the slow accumulation of SoV dots on secondary targets which would reduce our ramp up time on close by targets in some target swap sitations, would give us a slow ramp up on our overall aoe damage, and would not have a huge impact on the pvp balance blizz is looking for with this change.
Get it done Blizz!
Edit - in it's current state, I'm liking my hyperspeed accelerators tinker more and more!
I feel like I have made a mistake in my math here somewhere.
Looking at the standard 5/11/55 build and what 2 point talent (Might, PoJ, Vindication) to get just 1 of I keep coming back to Improved Judgment.
I have been looking at my rotations over 30 seconds and I can't seem to find a place where I can judge faster than 9 seconds with CS at 4.
I think I might have the priorities wrong or something but here is my logic. The priority I'm using is CS > Judge > Cons > DS > Exo is that wrong?
I figure I must have the priorities wrong or am missing something else.
With the changes to damage being done, I would most definately prioritize judgement over CS. Judgement is going to hit like a mack truck when you have 5 stacks of SoV on a target. Putting Judgement off for anything (like not speccing into it) would be a serious drop in DPS.
You can't even make the argument anymore that CS is consistently better damage because of the seal proc because Judgement is also proccing the seal.
If something should have to 'wait' a bit on the CD, it should be CS.
Now; this is only once you get your 5 stacks up on a target. I am not sure if we should alter our rotation at all for the first few seconds of being on a boss; but I would -think- that opening with judgement would mean your next judgement would be right around the time that you get your 5th stack.
This is the first bit of recent news that's made me a happy camper. Granted we are losing our up front burst, it seems our burst gradually returns as we build up the SoV stack, and if this ends up being an overall dps boost (which it sounds like it is) I can live with that.
Now if they'd just let DS stack the SoV dot that would be a very reasonable compromise that would not be OP. This would put the ramp up time at roughly 10 seconds regardless of haste gear, would allow for the slow accumulation of SoV dots on secondary targets which would reduce our ramp up time on close by targets in some target swap sitations, would give us a slow ramp up on our overall aoe damage, and would not have a huge impact on the pvp balance blizz is looking for with this change.
Get it done Blizz!
Edit - in it's current state, I'm liking my hyperspeed accelerators tinker more and more!
Another interesting idea is to base DS's damage on your current target's Holy Vengeance stack without applying any additional sacks. This is how I was expecting DS to function after Blizzard announced the removal of SoB. Oh well, one DPS boost at a time
On the topic of spell priority, I agree that Judgements should be #1. A Judgement crit hits like a truck on the PTR.
Actually, you could use a trinket with a 20s on USE haste buff, and swap it for a different trinket before combat starts. It could well be worth doing for a patchwerk style fight in the same way that using scourgebane is a good idea.
Again, not a good idea. 3.2 specifically resets internal cooldown for trinkets on swap. You're going from an almost guaranteed proc on first hit to not being able to proc for first 45 seconds of combat.
Similar situation with libram swapping. You're forcing the ICD of the new libram (as we're fairly sure it has an ICD) to start countdown when you swap. More or less losing an entire proc and that proc is a huge boost.
Edit: Regarding FCFS change - my spreadsheet shows that swapping from the standard CS > J > DS > Cons > Exo can net you up to 1% DPS in an ideal Patchwerk world, many possibilities are a significant loss. As Zurm has repeatedly stated before, pushing back the shortest cooldown (CS) repeatedly by putting something else at a higher priority is generally a loss.
CS is around half Judgement hit and crit in my gear. With half the cooldown. Pushing it back 1.5 seconds is more of a loss than delaying Judge by 1.5 seconds.
Recommend you stick with the current live priorities.
Last edited by Exemplar : 07/31/09 at 4:57 PM.
Rock: "We're sub-standard DPS. Nerf Paper, Scissors are fine."
Paper: "OMG, WTF, Scissors!"
Scissors: "Rock is OP and Paper are QQers. We need PvP buffs."
I thought of a few questions and after reading through this thread, I don't think I saw any of them answered. I have a feeling that in a situation where you have a ret and a prot pally in the same raid, it may be beneficial for increases in Ret DPS.
1. Currently, Prot will still use SoV as their main seal, given the fact that it still provides the most threat, the awesome glyph to give them 10 more expertise, as well as being able to apply to multiple mobs using HotR. But, has anyone seen if this will end up clashing with Ret using the same seal? I was under the impression that there cannot be more than 1 stack of Holy Vengeance on the mob at one time. So will Prot override Ret and our DPS will suffer? Or will Ret override Prot and the tank suffers with threat? On a sidenote, if the stack counts for both Prot and Ret, and you have two pallies applying it, will it stack faster and therefore even reduce our ramp up time more, giving SoV more viability?
2. With the changes to JoL, it seems that this will be the Seal of choice for Ret. How do you convince your tank to use JoW instead?
3. For anyone on the PTR that might be able to test this.... if you apply a full stack of HV to one mob in an AoE group, then use DS... will the Seal proc on the 3 additional mobs as well, or will it only proc on the mob that has the full stack?
Also, just as an aside, I think they could easily make SoComm more viable in PvP if they simply reduced the damage on it and folded Seal of Justice into it, giving it a chance to do a 2 second stun on each hit.
1. Currently, Prot will still use SoV as their main seal, given the fact that it still provides the most threat, the awesome glyph to give them 10 more expertise, as well as being able to apply to multiple mobs using HotR. But, has anyone seen if this will end up clashing with Ret using the same seal? I was under the impression that there cannot be more than 1 stack of Holy Vengeance on the mob at one time. So will Prot override Ret and our DPS will suffer? Or will Ret override Prot and the tank suffers with threat? On a sidenote, if the stack counts for both Prot and Ret, and you have two pallies applying it, will it stack faster and therefore even reduce our ramp up time more, giving SoV more viability?
There can be multiple holy vengeance stacks quite happily.
2. With the changes to JoL, it seems that this will be the Seal of choice for Ret. How do you convince your tank to use JoW instead?
This confuses me. JoL is being nerfed to 2% max health, how does it become the judgement of choice? And if your tank is using JoL, just use JoW yourself - what's the net difference?
3. For anyone on the PTR that might be able to test this.... if you apply a full stack of HV to one mob in an AoE group, then use DS... will the Seal proc on the 3 additional mobs as well, or will it only proc on the mob that has the full stack?
No, just full stack. Hence the unfortunate AoE nerf.
1. Currently, Prot will still use SoV as their main seal, given the fact that it still provides the most threat, the awesome glyph to give them 10 more expertise, as well as being able to apply to multiple mobs using HotR. But, has anyone seen if this will end up clashing with Ret using the same seal? I was under the impression that there cannot be more than 1 stack of Holy Vengeance on the mob at one time. So will Prot override Ret and our DPS will suffer? Or will Ret override Prot and the tank suffers with threat? On a sidenote, if the stack counts for both Prot and Ret, and you have two pallies applying it, will it stack faster and therefore even reduce our ramp up time more, giving SoV more viability?
2. With the changes to JoL, it seems that this will be the Seal of choice for Ret. How do you convince your tank to use JoW instead?
1. Maelstrom is right - every Paladin has his own stack for SoV and the seal procs only check your number of stacks on the target. E.g. a Paladin tank has 5 stacks of SoV on the target and you only 2 stacks. SoV would proc for only 2 stacks for you.
2. It's not exactly true that it doesn't matter which Paladin applies JoL - if possible, it should be done by somebody who has 5/5 Divinity for 2.1% heal instead of 2% (if you want to go for min/max).
Originally Posted by Angel of Wrath
I can now confirm that Divinity does increase the heal of JoL for all raid members. Proof:
As you can see, my Judgement heals the other Paladin for 479 which is:
21774*(JoL*Divinity)*Divinity(Received Healing)= 21774*(0.02*1.05)*1.05=480
Without the increased Healing on JoL, he would only receive 457 HP per proc.
Looking at the standard 5/11/55 build and what 2 point talent (Might, PoJ, Vindication) to get just 1 of I keep coming back to Improved Judgment.
Note sure what you are saying, but you want 2/2 Judgement because sometimes the cooldown on Judgement is 8.5 seconds.
Originally Posted by Gripefruit
This confuses me. JoL is being nerfed to 2% max health, how does it become the judgement of choice? And if your tank is using JoL, just use JoW yourself - what's the net difference?
The Prot/Holy will most likely not have 5/5 Divinity, so keep judging Light (assuming you have the talent). 5% of 2% isn't much, but everything helps.
Millions of words are written annually purporting to tell how to beat the races, whereas the best possible advice on the subject is found in the three monosyllables: 'Do not try.'
1. Currently, Prot will still use SoV as their main seal, given the fact that it still provides the most threat, the awesome glyph to give them 10 more expertise, as well as being able to apply to multiple mobs using HotR. But, has anyone seen if this will end up clashing with Ret using the same seal? I was under the impression that there cannot be more than 1 stack of Holy Vengeance on the mob at one time. So will Prot override Ret and our DPS will suffer? Or will Ret override Prot and the tank suffers with threat? On a sidenote, if the stack counts for both Prot and Ret, and you have two pallies applying it, will it stack faster and therefore even reduce our ramp up time more, giving SoV more viability?
2. With the changes to JoL, it seems that this will be the Seal of choice for Ret. How do you convince your tank to use JoW instead?
3. For anyone on the PTR that might be able to test this.... if you apply a full stack of HV to one mob in an AoE group, then use DS... will the Seal proc on the 3 additional mobs as well, or will it only proc on the mob that has the full stack?
1.) Mobs can have more than a singular stack of Holy Vengeance, so there is no liability between Prot and Ret.
2.) There is no difference between JoLs in 3.2 unless you factor in 5/5 Divinity. That said, our JoL will still be strongest/tied for strongest in a raid situation, if you opt for Divinity.
3.) Divine Storm's interaction is slightly odd with Seal of Vengeance (I've posted about this numerous times previously). Divine Storm will "throw" the direct damage proc up to roughly 100~ yard. To produce this effect, build a 5stack on a mob, then target a different mob in LoS within 100~ yards, and hit Divine Storm. Divine Storm sends all of the direct damage procs to your target, up to a total of 4x procs instantly on a singular target. This effect will be very limited in real raiding scenarios, seeing as it basically requires the presence of a Prot Paladin to pull off and the various targets living for, at least, 30 seconds at a time (enough time to build a 5stack w/ just HotR).
I just conducted a quick test of how Seal of Vengeance interacts with other SoV stacks from different Paladins.
If you currently do not have a Holy Vengeance debuff applied to the target, SoV's proc potency is based off of the highest current stack.
If you currently do have at least one stack of Holy Vengeance, SoV's proc potency is based off of your stack.
This has no negative effects, only slight positive gains. Upon swapping to a target tanked by a Prot Paladin, you might gain a full damage SoV proc before your own Holy Vengeance debuff is applied. In multi-target situations where a pack of mobs lives for 30~ or more seconds, you'll potentially gain extra SoV proc(s) on Divine Storm (Elemental wave in Freya or Kologarn, for instance).
Basically, a Prot Paladin is a slight, situational DPS upgrade for us in the way a Unholy DK is for a SPriest, or an Arms Warrior is for a Feral Drood (probably not to the tune of the same DPS value, but same concept).
So that sounds like, as far as min/max is concerned, in an AoE situation where your tank is a Prot Pally, it's ideal for your target to be something other than the tank's target (unless threat is a concern).
2.) There is no difference between JoLs in 3.2 unless you factor in 5/5 Divinity. That said, our JoL will still be strongest/tied for strongest in a raid situation, if you opt for Divinity.
Yeah, this was kind of what I was aiming for. Currently there is myself and a Prot Pally who have almost 100% raid attendence, so we work out what specs we have so we can bring as much to the table as possible. Just wanted to get some clarification on that.
I just conducted a quick test of how Seal of Vengeance interacts with other SoV stacks from different Paladins.
If you currently do not have a Holy Vengeance debuff applied to the target, SoV's proc potency is based off of the highest current stack.
If you currently do have at least one stack of Holy Vengeance, SoV's proc potency is based off of your stack.
This has no negative effects, only slight positive gains. Upon swapping to a target tanked by a Prot Paladin, you might gain a full damage SoV proc before your own Holy Vengeance debuff is applied. In multi-target situations where a pack of mobs lives for 30~ or more seconds, you'll potentially gain extra SoV proc(s) on Divine Storm (Elemental wave in Freya or Kologarn, for instance).
Basically, a Prot Paladin is a slight, situational DPS upgrade for us in the way a Unholy DK is for a SPriest, or an Arms Warrior is for a Feral Drood (probably not to the tune of the same DPS value, but same concept).
So assuming a Paladin tank has a full stack, we're already at the 33% extra damage threshold, and only need to wait for our own five stack before we can get out extra damage kicking in from talents. That's nice.
The next question is, working as intended or a minor bug?
So assuming a Paladin tank has a full stack, we're already at the 33% extra damage threshold, and only need to wait for our own five stack before we can get out extra damage kicking in from talents. That's nice.
I think you misread what I posted. That, or my post was unclear. If a mob has a 5stack from another Paladin and zero stacks from you, you'll deal the 33% Weapon Damage proc on CS, DS, and Judgement. The moment you apply your own Holy Vengeance debuff from a white swing, you reset to the proc damage to coincide with the amount of stacks you have. Meaning, if you have a single Holy Vengeance debuff (IE you've only landed one auto-attack), you will trigger a 7%~ SoV proc on CS, DS, and Judgement.
The window to gain extra SoV procs during a target swap is extremely tiny, at most 2 GCDs worth of extra 33% procs, assuming full raid buffs.
And to what mrbreck posted, sort of. In an AoE situation with a Prot Paladin, it'll be beneficial to probably sit on the longest living mob, as Divine Storm will "throw" extra SoV procs at that target.
About JoL:
With the changes to Beacon of Light I think holy pals will really benefit more from it. And since Judgements are procing Seals, judging with Seal of Wisdom will probably be one of their way to get some mana back, so they'll judge more often.
I'll personnally leave JoL for holy pals when there are some in the raid, and then use JoW.
About JoL:
With the changes to Beacon of Light I think holy pals will really benefit more from it. And since Judgements are procing Seals, judging with Seal of Wisdom will probably be one of their way to get some mana back, so they'll judge more often.
I'll personnally leave JoL for holy pals when there are some in the raid, and then use JoW.
The changes to Beacon of Light shouldn't have anything to do with what a paladin judges (unless I missed a bug report about everyone's JoL procs healing the beacon target, which is exactly what it is, a bug). I don't see what else you could be talking about, because other than that, holy paladins gain no more benefit from judging light than anyone else. If they can in fact proc seal of wisdom from a judgement, then judging wisdom will achieve the same exact goal.
In 3.2 it really makes no difference who judges what, as long as whoever does JoL has 5/5 Divinity.
Most prot paladins judge wisdom or justice at the moment, but in 3.2 the problem with Judgements of the Just being knocked off by another judgement of the same type is fixed, so there will be no need to judge justice anymore. This means that most prot paladins will judge light on their target for the healing, until a ret or holy paladin with 5/5 divinity starts on their target, where they can judge wisdom instead. If you have an addon such as Utopia you can easily see if a mob has certain debuffs which makes it easy to judge the other one.
07/31/09, 4:16 PM
I didn't notice the "on use" part.
Similar Threads
