Has anybody noticed Berserking behaving strange? I realize that the lowered cooldown on CS in conjunktion the low weapon speed for a higher proc chance increases our up-time compared to life, but I have the strange feeling that SoV triggers the Berserking proc far more often than the other seals on the PTR.

I'm going to write an important test next Friday, so my testing was very limited, but it seems that SoV beats both SoR and SoC in terms of procs:
E.g. 2 test runs for both SoC and SoV, 5 minutes, full rotation (CS>J>DS>Consecration>Exo), weapon speed 3.4, strike speed 3.06:

SoC 1: 17 (somewhat unlucky with a longer proc downtime)
SoC 2: 20
SoV 1: 21 (unlucky due to first proc triggering after ~1 minute)
SoV 2: 31

Combined with some shorter 1- and 2-minute tests, SoC is roughly in the realm of ~4 procs/min, while SoV seems to be in the realm of 5 or rather 6 procs/min. My testing wasn't really empirical without tracking the exact time of each proc and the rather low sample size. All I can say for now is that the ticking SoV DoT itself can't apply the Berserk buff.

More testing on this issue (with exact tracking whenever Berserking is triggered and a bigger sample size) is appreciated. It would be interesting if Berserking did indeed proc more often with SoV.

It would make sense that it procs more often if it is capable of proccing off of the dot. PPM is simply a percentage given to each attack based on your weapon speed, meaning the more specials a class has, the more chances they have of proccing. I went into further detail about this in the 3.0 thread.

For the sake of SoV testing, I would suggest applying the dot to the dummy and stepping back. This way you can see if the dot is an additional source of a proc. If you'll notice, Darkmoon Card: Greatness has this same behavior with Consecration, as the card does not proc when you cast Consecration, but it procs when it does the first tick of damage.

I already did that:
Maybe applying/refreshing the DoT is an additional trigger source for SoV, but I think it would be wise to wait for actual confirmation first that SoV does a have a higher proc rate.

Sorry, I missed that sentence. I doubt we would receive any formal confirmation about a higher proc rate though. The blues typically hate revealing any sort of mechanics like that to the general public.

I can confirm that Berserk is nearly a permanent buff for Ret as implemented on the PTR right now. I just spent 10 minutes attacking a training dummy and averaged less than 2 seconds of Berserk downtime per minute.

Don't forget that SoV has a hidden melee strike attached to it (to apply/refresh the DoT), which could very well be the reason for the difference. I can't really say if it's intended or not, but I don't see a way to fix it either, because they were very specifically coded as melee strikes (and all melee strikes can proc berserking, judgements included). DoT ticks cannot proc berserking.

No. "Melee" does not equal "physical". Something is considered a melee based on what hit and crit tables it uses, along with things like parry and dodge flags. Attacks can still be based on these hit tables but simply deal Holy damage, as is the case for the new Judgement revamp, and it changes nothing in regards to Armor Penetration.

Edit: Please disregard this, someone beat me to the punch on the melee =/= physical.

So is SoR the same in 3.2 still can't crit, same damage?
Have not quite picked up on this yet.

Seal of Righteousness remains unchanged. It's just relatively better because we're acquiring 5/5 Seals of the Pure in 3.2.

Sorry if this has been answered already, but i put the rotation down on paper and Judge was never faster than 9s. Is it when latency is taken into consideration that it changes. I'm assuming the same ability priority holds. I'm not exactly an expert so i'm probably overlooking something so if someone could please point it out to me, that'd be greatly appreciated.

Assuming perfect latency, using a CS>J>DS>CONS>EXO priority, you should get an 8.5 second Judgement at 19 sec.

0 - CS
1.5 - J
3 - DS
4.5 - CS
6 - Cons
7.5 - Exo
9 - CS
10.5 - J (9 seconds)
Delay - 12 - All on CD
13 - CS
14.5 - DS
16 - Cons
17.5 - CS
19 - J (8.5 seconds)
Delay - 20.5 - All on CD
21.5 - CS

Interesting note, not that it may matter much, but there is a 1 second gap after the first 2 Judgements. Not long enough to use an ability and maintain maximum dps, but long enough to be noticable.

Berserking can only proc off weapon swings, but both RV and HV are capable of trigger things like Greatness (and by extension, I'd imagine the new libram as well).

Speaking of the new badges libram, I did some quick math with Endoscient the other day, and came to the following effective AP values after putting the relentless glad libram and the badge one on a level playing field:

Glad: 172 AP
Badge: ~168 AP

While they are very close, the badge libram shares the same ICD and a high proc chance like greatness... meaning lots of stacking. With the potential to pop AW only if these procs are up, I believe it would actually be MORE benefitial to get the badges one.

Edit, just so there's no confusion:

Badge Libram: Libram of Valiance
Glad Libram: Relentless Gladiator's Libram of Fortitude

Judgement isn't exactly a weapon swing, but as a melee attack, it does still proc Berserking. If Arikah is right and applying the DoT is indeed a hidden melee strike, it would a reasonable source for additonal Berserking procs. However, that wouldn't explain the lack of additional JoW procs (unless it would require the attack to actually deal damage).

On a different note:
3.2 Premotion Patchwerk DPS Test
Looks like we are where we should be on Patchwerk-like bosses now. The more interesting question is where we are going to be in the other types of encounters.

Looking at that log, it shows Judgements hitting for more than double of CS both on normal hits and crits. Wouldn't that push its DPS higher than CS and move it to 1st in priority?

According to the log, it does have higher DPS overall, in which case it should be #1. However, I don't know his rotation - he might have been using J as his #1 prio, meaning he will end up pushing back CS quite often, reducing the DPS significantly.

More testing is needed I suppose, by someone who can verify that they're using CS>J>DS>Conc>Exo vs J>CS>DS>Conc>Exo.

Edit: Studied the log some more. If he is using the right prio system, he should have twice as many (or more) CS than J, but the ratio is not 2:1 or more. He is probably using J as his main prio. Whether he could achieve higher DPS by using CS>J rather than J>CS is hard to say without further testing/calculations.

Don't forget that both CS and J can trigger the weapon proc of SoV which must be included when calculating the DPS priority for both spells. CS on a 4s CD causes significant more seal procs than J on a 8s CD.

Edit: Numbers taken from DPS test 1:

Avg. Dmg per SoV proc: 723240/336=2152,5

Assuming each attack caused a proc without the ramp-up time:

CS: 81*2152,5=174352,5
CS overall damage: 174352,5+299659=474011,5

J: 49*2152,5=105472,5
J overall damage: 105472,5+387689=493161,5

Judgements are only slightly ahead now. CS should still provide more DPS per effective CD if favored over J, assuming his priority favored J>CS.

Wait, are you saying there is a 45 second ICD on the Libram of Valiance, or if there is an ICD on Libram of Valiance?

I guess it doesn't matter either way, for the reasons you stated. Valiance is a better libram for most situations.

Sorry if this has been discussed pages back, but I was wondering where ArPen stands for ret in 3.2? I know its gotten better for us but is it up there with str?

My general rotation was a priority of J>CS, so yes I didn't get as many CS's off as I could have. I figured because the judges were critting for 10k+ it was worth prioritizing judgement over CS. Of course it was my first real time to test it, so I wasn't able to study logs and such between attempts or anything like that. It reminded me of the pre-judge-nerf rotation of pre-3.1 when judges were critting regularly for 15k, so I went back to that sort of priority.

I'm glad to see the change that allows partial damage while building stacks. I am pretty sure in a few weeks we will have a good list of which seal to use for each boss.

Now, while seal twisting is still not ideal, where will we stand in weapon twisting?

I remember reading up when the change was first announced that using a 1h and shield could provide a benefit without a serious dps loss.

I just got a Rune-Etched Nightblade and was wondering if starting a fight with it can reduce the stack up time to almost half of the time using a slow 2h. Has anyone tested using a "startup" rotation where we use a clear set of abilities using the 1h (even shield bashing being possible) and then after stack is done switching to 2h and continue?

WOuld this help on single target fights where we need to rebuild stacks and have time to switch weapons? (the moment when heart in XT falls off gives you that second in the GCD to switch, or while running to Yogg brain for example)

Or is overall the loss way to high to consider weapon switch?

I normally play prot but I offspec ret, I have been discussing the changes with our current raiding ret pally. One concern he had was mana. Is anyone worrying about mana issues now that we will be using seal of vengeance and SoV doesnt have a nifty mana return glyph?