I normally play prot but I offspec ret, I have been discussing the changes with our current raiding ret pally. One concern he had was mana. Is anyone worrying about mana issues now that we will be using seal of vengeance and SoV doesnt have a nifty mana return glyph?
Nobody used that glyph anyways, and no, mana was never a problem when I tested.
Wait, are you saying there is a 45 second ICD on the Libram of Valiance, or if there is an ICD on Libram of Valiance?
I guess it doesn't matter either way, for the reasons you stated. Valiance is a better libram for most situations.
The new libram has a 45 second cooldown.
Since Judgment hits like a truck (due to Seal procing), I also wonder if J>CS is best.
Millions of words are written annually purporting to tell how to beat the races, whereas the best possible advice on the subject is found in the three monosyllables: 'Do not try.'
Or is overall the loss way to high to consider weapon switch?
The math showed the gain to be infinitesimal assuming zero latency and robot efficiency. Basically, it's not worth it.
Originally Posted by gatgat
I normally play prot but I offspec ret, I have been discussing the changes with our current raiding ret pally. One concern he had was mana. Is anyone worrying about mana issues now that we will be using seal of vengeance and SoV doesnt have a nifty mana return glyph?
We consume less mana in 3.2 than on Live. Secondly, the Glyph of Seal of Blood was never needed in 25man content.
Since Judgment hits like a truck (due to Seal procing), I also wonder if J>CS is best.
Running through Trajer's parses (Found here - 3.2 DPS Tests - Premonition - Sen'jin (US)), it looks as if 2x CS is almost identical to 1x Judgement, on average, in terms of damage. But the 2x CS yields an extra SoV proc, which ranges from 1600-4300 damage.
I'm unsure what that means in terms of DPS per effective cooldown.
Interestingly enough to note, the damage of CS and Judgement is probably closer than it will be at the end of 3.2, namely because of both T8 and T9's 4piece bonus. Currently, a Paladin with 4pieceT8 only experiences a numerical gap of 8% Crit between CS and Judgement. But switching to 4pieceT9, that gap becomes 23%.
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the three current glyphs Ret should be using are Judgment, Consecration and Exorcism. None of those have a mana return component, aside from some savings based on Consecration being cast less often. The most likely glyph change for 3.2 has generally been agreed to drop Exo for the Vengeance one as long as you can use 4 or more Expertise from the glyph. With the reduction in mana cost of CS, current testing indicates mana is the slightly better when raid buffed then Live.
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the three current glyphs Ret should be using are Judgment, Consecration and Exorcism. None of those have a mana return component, aside from some savings based on Consecration being cast less often. The most likely glyph change for 3.2 has generally been agreed to drop Exo for the Vengeance one as long as you can use 4 or more Expertise from the glyph. With the reduction in mana cost of CS, current testing indicates mana is still 'ok' when raid buffed.
Wow, I learn something new every day, I had always used seal of blood and so does our regular ret pally.
I don't have exact numbers in front of me (I know they are around here somewhere) but you should see a DPS increase swapping that out for the one you are missing. Even on 5 and 10 man runs you should be able to keep your mana up between DP and the usual tricks.
Sorry if this has been discussed pages back, but I was wondering where ArPen stands for ret in 3.2? I know its gotten better for us but is it up there with str?
This has been covered multiple times. Armor Pen is no better. No mechanics have changed to improve it. Haste and ArmPen are still the armpits of the Ret universe. They remain crappy stats which are picked up because they are present on otherwise good gear.
Originally Posted by HamSlammer
The math showed the gain [using a 1H weapon to build stacks] to be infinitesimal assuming zero latency and robot efficiency. Basically, it's not worth it.
I haven't re-mathed, but the fact that stacks 1, 2, 3, and 4 all proc % weapon damage, I'm inclined to believe using a 1H will be a straight DPS loss.
My simulations show J>CS to be ~1% superior to CS>J in a no movement no latency world. Slightly better effective cooldowns. Again, personal gut feeling not math here, I suspect that as human being prioritizing the Judgement will be marginally less DPS. More "lost time" on abilities due to latency and human reaction time. I'm quite willing to be proven wrong.
On the topic of Glyphs, we're likely to stick with the current Trinity. Glyph of SoV is only useful if you can drop a lot of WE. In my current gear and even some prospective 3.2 gear I float in mid-20s, therefore the majority of the Glyph is waste unless I'm DPSing from the front (aka Doing It Wrong).
Rock: "We're sub-standard DPS. Nerf Paper, Scissors are fine."
Paper: "OMG, WTF, Scissors!"
Scissors: "Rock is OP and Paper are QQers. We need PvP buffs."
Wow, I learn something new every day, I had always used seal of blood and so does our regular ret pally.
You would need the Blood glyph assuming your or the normal Ret tried to play half healer/half dps (casting flash of light, SS, and cleanse). Assuming you didn't play half healer (which is nerfed in 3.2, since you need AoW for Exo), you don't need any mana glyphs.
Millions of words are written annually purporting to tell how to beat the races, whereas the best possible advice on the subject is found in the three monosyllables: 'Do not try.'
This probably have been asked, but now that most weapons are available on Wowhead to browse, I kind of notice they *all* have armor penetration on them, there is no exception this time like Earthshaper/Hammer of Crushing Whispers.
Obviously, we're the class that benefits less from ArP using those weapons, but did anything in 3.2 buffed ArP at all for paladins? Like moving judgement as melee attacks?!
Didn't find anything on that subject yet. I am stocking gear at the moment of various stats just in case something changes in that department.
Obvious "reason" why I'm asking is the weird presence of ArP on our T9 chest.
This looks as weird as the ArP tank gloves from Ignis.
Obvious "reason" why I'm asking is the weird presence of ArP on our T9 chest.
This looks as weird as the ArP tank gloves from Ignis.
Of the 5 "extra" DPS stats found on Plate gear, Crit, Hit, Expertise, ArPen, and Haste, 3 are only useful past Hit/Dodge cap. Assuming our tier gear will likely have Crit Rating on every piece (14 of 15 pieces have had Crit this expansion), that leaves us with only two stats to choose from past a point; Haste and Armor Penetration. Both are pretty meh stats
Of our available stat choices, ArPen isn't that bad, relatively speaking.
Of our available stat choices, ArPen isn't that bad, relatively speaking.
Haste is definitely way better than ArP. Not only does ArP affect only a small portion of our damage, but due to seal mechanics haste scales faster as well. In very good gear, haste is almost as good as crit. If we look to the future (3.3 and icecrown) its very possible, in fact probable, that haste will overtake crit.
If you're at hit and expertise cap, the perfect plate piece of armor for a ret pally (given current item limitations) would have Str, Stam, Crit, and Haste.
Formally Xyrm/Zurm, the Ret Pally. Now playing my rogue, Zyrm, more casually with RL friends.
Well, haste at least affects all our attacks, not ArP.. and I guess it will help (probably very little) stack JoV dots a bit faster.
Though with a smaller cooldown on CS, it might help to have a bit more ArP since it doubled the use of that attack, making it like an extra attack that uses Armor Penetration, so imho, that's a little buff to ArP for pallies, but very little.
Well, haste at least affects all our attacks, not ArP.. and I guess it will help (probably very little) stack JoV dots a bit faster..
Haste doesn't affect all of our attacks... it only affects Exorcism and Consecration, and even then only by a small amount. White damage (and the seals procced by it) is a large part of our damage.
Originally Posted by Spotnick
Though with a smaller cooldown on CS, it might help to have a bit more ArP since it doubled the use of that attack, making it like an extra attack that uses Armor Penetration, so imho, that's a little buff to ArP for pallies, but very little.
Armor is a percent modifier. Since the DPS of CS (excluding seal procs) remains essentially the same, ArP affects it the same as it used to.
Formally Xyrm/Zurm, the Ret Pally. Now playing my rogue, Zyrm, more casually with RL friends.
Haste doesn't affect all of our attacks... it only affects Exorcism and Consecration, and even then only by a small amount. White damage (and the seals procced by it) is a large part of our damage.
Armor is a percent modifier. Since the DPS of CS (excluding seal procs) remains essentially the same, ArP affects it the same as it used to.
I am confused by what you are saying here. Haste should increase white damage because it increases the speed of auto-attacks which means that it also increases damage from seals.
Haste increases attackspeed. This means more white attacks. White attacks proc seals, you wind up with more seal procs, but the seal procs do not hit any harder. This leads to increased DPS.
ArmPen affects White attacks, Crusader Strike, and Divine Storm. More ArmPen, the less they're reduced by armour.
Haste "scales with gear" because the harder your white and seals hit, the better it becomes.
ArmPen "scales with gear" since armor reduces damage by a %. The harder you hit, the more of an improve another single percent unmitigated becomes.
However, ArmPen also scales with itself - the more ArmPen you have, the better it becomes. Haste remains a flat increase. What I see from my spreadsheet is that fully raid buffed (Sunder Armour and Faerie Fire included) ArmPen is very close to Haste in benefit. Possibly a teensy bit better. Even looking forward to future gear. So I'm not seeing Haste pull ahead as Zurm is unless I examine an un-Sundered boss.
End result, they wind up remaining crap and equally good/bad crap. We'll still take them because 80 crap rating is better than 2 more Str. Item designers understand this and so we get Haste and ArmPen on gear. Also it's less crap for other plate wearers.
Rock: "We're sub-standard DPS. Nerf Paper, Scissors are fine."
Paper: "OMG, WTF, Scissors!"
Scissors: "Rock is OP and Paper are QQers. We need PvP buffs."
I am confused by what you are saying here. Haste should increase white damage because it increases the speed of auto-attacks which means that it also increases damage from seals.
He is refering to haste effect on GCD, which would only work on our 2 spells. (Consecration/Exocism) Haste doesn't effect CS/DS GCD.
And yes you're right about the white damage/seal procs.
Obviously, we're the class that benefits less from ArP using those weapons, but did anything in 3.2 buffed ArP at all for paladins? Like moving judgement as melee attacks?!
As has been stated before, the term "melee attack" does not mean "physical damage." Rather, it means that it will count as a melee attack for the purpose of triggering procs from a variety of enchants, trinkets, etc., while conforming to the melee hit table instead of the spell hit table (ie, it will only require 8% hit chance in order not to miss, rather than the higher spell hit chance required for no misses on a level+3 boss).
To reiterate, armor penetration only helps to increase physical damage. For ret paladins, this means weapon swings, crusader strikes, and divine storm hits. Unless an attack deals physical damage, regardless of whether or not it is classified as a melee attack, it will not benefit from armor penetration.
"The question is not how far we are going to take it... the question is, do you possess the constitution to go as far as needed?" - Il Duce
To add a little to the discussion on JoL/JoW a few pages back, JoW will be the more important of the two buffs in 3.2. The reason being that JoL doesn't act as an extra healer (even though on the meters sometimes it looks like it), the effective healing JoL does in most cases is simply sniping heals from a real healer, on live JoL is such a strong buff because the heals are potent enough to actually save peoples lives, in 3.2 the healing from JoL will be relatively inconsequential in most cases simply due to the size of the heal.
As to who should apply what debuff. Whoever can get the highest uptime on the main attack target should be doing JoW, in most cases this would be the ret. JoL can be applied by the holy pallies and the prot when they can, and when it falls off I have a feeling that in most cases no one will notice. Many ret pallies will no longer have divinity in 3.2, since divine sacrifice has been fixed to the point of near uselessness in a raid environment. Aura mastery should come out as the new raid saver Ret CD, which is nice since it allows us the use of our shield again.
Divine sacrifice after the fix simply is no longer a viable raid CD in 99% of cases. The only situation where it will be useful will be when one large predictable raid-wide burst is going to happen, and the damage output before the burst is low enough that you can put up your sac without worry of it breaking before the large burst, then it will absorb the one tick (it will break after the 150% threshold is passed, but if it is passed in one large attack it will absorb the entire thing, an example of such an attack would be a star explosion on Algalon). However, most large attacks like this are not physical damage(and even the ones that are, an AM devo will help to reduce the damage), so AM+the applicable resistance aura can be nearly as potent a damage reducer, at lower risk to the paladin, and usable far more often.
I will be going 11/5/55 in 3.2 for these reasons(and since we only have 2 pallies currently, and we want to win the race to Death's Demise, AM conc being absolutely amazing for that encounter).
Divine sacrifice after the fix simply is no longer a viable raid CD in 99% of cases. The only situation where it will be useful will be when one large predictable raid-wide burst is going to happen, and the damage output before the burst is low enough that you can put up your sac without worry of it breaking before the large burst, then it will absorb the one tick (it will break after the 150% threshold is passed, but if it is passed in one large attack it will absorb the entire thing, an example of such an attack would be a star explosion on Algalon). However, most large attacks like this are not physical damage(and even the ones that are, an AM devo will help to reduce the damage), so AM+the applicable resistance aura can be nearly as potent a damage reducer, at lower risk to the paladin, and usable far more often.
I will be going 11/5/55 in 3.2 for these reasons(and since we only have 2 pallies currently, and we want to win the race to Death's Demise, AM conc being absolutely amazing for that encounter).
Has the Divine Sacrifice nerf/fix been confirmed yet?
Also, my take on the judgment priorities would be as follows:
JoL is the an important judge still, its free healing to anyone hitting the boss. Judge Wis may be a higher priority if you only run with one paladin, but generally you should be able to have both in a 25 man setting. Ideally the paladin judging Light has 5/5 divinity, leaving your 2nd paladin on Wisdom, and any others on either wisdom or justice.
I have seen a lot of discussion on the new SoV mechanics, but so far, I haven't seen anything on the possibility of target switching on bosses like Kologarn and Mimiron to build up 5 stacks of SoV on multiple targets?
For example, on Mimiron p4, is it worth targeting the bottom to build 5 stacks, then targeting the middle to build a few stacks, switching back to the bottom to keep the 5stack ticking, then swapping back to the middle to finishing building the 5 stacks.
This would allow DS to proc larger seals on both targets. You would continue to swap every 8 secs or so, so the auto-attacks would keep refreshing the 5 stack.
I have seen a lot of discussion on the new SoV mechanics, but so far, I haven't seen anything on the possibility of target switching on bosses like Kologarn and Mimiron to build up 5 stacks of SoV on multiple targets?
For example, on Mimiron p4, is it worth targeting the bottom to build 5 stacks, then targeting the middle to build a few stacks, switching back to the bottom to keep the 5stack ticking, then swapping back to the middle to finishing building the 5 stacks.
This would allow DS to proc larger seals on both targets. You would continue to swap every 8 secs or so, so the auto-attacks would keep refreshing the 5 stack.
Just an idea...any thoughts?
I highly doubt it. You are in effect doubling your nerfed dps time to only gain DS seal procs on an off target. You can try to argue for the ease of target swapping, but there shouldn't be a situation in which your ability to target swap w/o a ramp up will be the deciding factor in a kill. If you are hoping to keep up double debuffs for stat padding then you will probably lose more dps by constantly switching targets then you would by gaining extra seal procs.
I know these parses aren't bible but it seems that Trajer performs fairly consistently and usually hits around the same dps mark (7.1-7.3) on the PW dummy.
I wonder how much of this is accounted by Glyph - Sense Undead, Holy Wrath and Exorcism always hitting critical.
Anyway, seems like some decent logs to dissect.
Even with all of the hoopla over this patch I am still very excited for tomorrow.
I highly doubt it. You are in effect doubling your nerfed dps time to only gain DS seal procs on an off target. You can try to argue for the ease of target swapping, but there shouldn't be a situation in which your ability to target swap w/o a ramp up will be the deciding factor in a kill. If you are hoping to keep up double debuffs for stat padding then you will probably lose more dps by constantly switching targets then you would by gaining extra seal procs.
Only exception I could see to "inflate" your dps stats is if (using your examples) you have a Prot Paladin on Kologarn's body while you're on one of the arms. As long as you don't hit the body with your stack of Vengeance, your divine storm will proc the extra damage from his 5 stack (as per HamSlammer's post). Relating this to Mimiron, the same would hold true if you were focused on the body in P4, while a Prot Paladin, or other Ret if you run with more than one, has their stack on the bottom.
Honestly, it isn't something I'd try to pull off. Splitting dps just always seems like a bad idea.
With the patch looking to release in the morning, a lot of the theorycrafting in this thread will get some real world testing very soon.
Of course, that's just me... I could be wrong.
-Dennis Miller
Only exception I could see to "inflate" your dps stats is if (using your examples) you have a Prot Paladin on Kologarn's body while you're on one of the arms. As long as you don't hit the body with your stack of Vengeance, your divine storm will proc the extra damage from his 5 stack (as per HamSlammer's post). Relating this to Mimiron, the same would hold true if you were focused on the body in P4, while a Prot Paladin, or other Ret if you run with more than one, has their stack on the bottom.
Honestly, it isn't something I'd try to pull off. Splitting dps just always seems like a bad idea.
With the patch looking to release in the morning, a lot of the theorycrafting in this thread will get some real world testing very soon.
Even still you are losing out on all of the target debuffs by staying on an arm by yourself. Even on Mimi I would much rather be attacking a sundered target than attacking only the middle while a Prot pally debuff'd everything for me. Although it will be interesting the next time a Prot Paladin goes to pick up the rubble on Kologarn.
Hi there,
I just red the Patch Notes for 3.2 again, and noticed that I missed this Note:
"Sacred Shield: When a paladin casts Flash of Light on a target with this buff, they also now place a heal-over-time effect on the target, healing that target for 100% of the Flash of Light amount over 12 seconds."
Does this somehow clash with Sheath of Light, or can I get two HoTs, one from Sacred Shield and one from Sheath of Light on myself, or someone else?
08/03/09, 2:06 PM
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