3.2 PTR - Retribution Discussion - Page 43

Raanis · 07/28/09, 3:27 PM

Originally Posted by Packoff00

We'll be losing dps from divine storm martyr procs on constructs during Ignis

To be frank, damage done to constructs during the Ignis fight is fluff damage plain and simple. It doesn't help get the boss dead in any way since the constructs should be getting shattered anyway, they have far too much health for the incidental damage from DS+SoB to have anything more than a slight impact in their health pool. However, your other examples ring perfectly true, except possibly life sparks- that would depend on how ones guild handles them.

In the end this change is quite simply disgusting. If Blizzard is looking to add ramp-up time to the amazing DPS that SoV could bring, the method they should be pursuing is one mentioned earlier in this thread- instead of increasing the time it takes to stack a debuff on your target that needs to be put up on EVERY target a ret pally wants to kill, simply change the SoV stack to be a dispellable buff that builds on the pally and causes weapon strikes to inflict extra holy damage, or auto-tack on the stack of the DoT effect. Much like the original incarnation of a fury warrior's Rampage, a pally would need to build the stack up once or more, but not EVERY time, to continue effective DPS.

The thought of using glyphed SoR in place of an actual damage seal is rather unsettling, but nonetheless a better alternative for most fights than using the current aberration that is SoV on the PTR, should Blizzard be foolish enough to let it go live as such.

Packoff00 · 07/28/09, 3:35 PM

delete

• Snowy · 07/28/09, 3:35 PM

Stay away from blatant whining about being nerfed TO THE GROUND, or the hammer is going to come down. Constructive discussion and analysis about this is welcome.

flyingtoastr · 07/28/09, 3:43 PM

Originally Posted by Exemplar

Hell, I'm hoping for a last minute SoV Glyph change allowing all attacks to apply the DoT. We can pick up Expertise elsewhere damn easily.

They won't do that though. The entire point of this change is to make SoV completely unusable in PvP to shoehorn SoC into being used for something... anything. They succeeded brilliantly in that issue, but it crippled PvE on anything except Patchwerk as a result.

More likely we'll see some sort of mechanic to either allow us to spread stacks (a la Pestilence) or a way to stack it faster but still slow enough that it doesn't affect PvP (allowing one special to stack it, most likely CS or DS).

Endoscient · 07/28/09, 3:52 PM

Originally Posted by Exemplar

So SoV DoT is now melee (Physical)? That means no partial resists and instead of CoE it gains from Blood Frenzy effects. It's an infinitesimal (~4DPS in my gear) nerf. Unless they specifically relabel it a bleed effect. Meh. I actually suspect no change but their own wording. Someone on PTR tell me if there are partial resists on the DoT?

I don't think that is true, I think the note just meant that the dot landing and refreshing/stacking is based on melee hit mechanics (which was true since start of ptr), not that it does physical damage. All spell damage regardless their source is subjected to level based partial resists.

• frmorrison · 07/28/09, 4:13 PM

Originally Posted by flyingtoastr

More likely we'll see some sort of mechanic to either allow us to spread stacks (a la Pestilence) or a way to stack it faster but still slow enough that it doesn't affect PvP (allowing one special to stack it, most likely CS or DS).

If Paladins get another spell, it would likely be an interrupt. Pestilence going to remain DK-only, so perhaps the devs will allow just one special to stack up SoV. Since HoR has the code to stack up SoV, it should be hot fixable.

narshanna · 07/28/09, 4:18 PM

Originally Posted by Exemplar

So SoV DoT is now melee (Physical)? That means no partial resists and instead of CoE it gains from Blood Frenzy effects. It's an infinitesimal (~4DPS in my gear) nerf. Unless they specifically relabel it a bleed effect. Meh. I actually suspect no change but their own wording. Someone on PTR tell me if there are partial resists on the DoT?

The DoT component of SoV keeps being both holy and partially resisted (boss target dummy in the PTR, a few minutes ago):

ninjasuperspy · 07/28/09, 4:22 PM

Originally Posted by Exemplar

28% is 28%. If you have 4 equal targets you need an average of 28% to break even. Whether that's 100% on one, 12% on another, and none on the rest, or 28% on each of the four in sequence - you've barely broken even.

If you're constantly running back and forth, never hitting 5 stacks - 0% is less than 28%.

There's no pretty way to look at it. SoV is great in a Patchwerk robot theorycraft world. In a normal fight with target swapping and movement, it's hamstrung.

Again, at the least the DoT effect needs an extremely extended "shelf life" on the target to allow for movement and target swaps (knowing you'll suck until you return to this target).

Yet another solution suggestion - allow Exorcism to apply a 5stack. You can't burst/swap this all over the place due to the cooldown on Exo, coincidentally identical to the DoT duration. Benefit - it would actually cause the GCD cast time of Exo be worth it on run-in. The boost to all your other attacks would for once outweigh the GCD lost. You also suddenly add thought - "Do I want to save my (Instant) Exo for the target swap or burn it for damage on current target?" Unfortunately I don't see this happening for a stupid reason: tooltip. Having to add the extra wording about Exorcism adding 5 stacks to a target on the tooltip will make it "too confusing."

Hell, I'm hoping for a last minute SoV Glyph change allowing all attacks to apply the DoT. We can pick up Expertise elsewhere damn easily.

This is all speculation/wishlisting:

I'm completely on board with the Glyph suggestion, though that is a little non-interactive.

I'd also support using Exo to at least refresh the duration of the five-stack: just have the ability say "This ability refreshes the duration of Blood Corruption" or something. The duration of the DOT would have to be increased though, using a 15 second CD ability to refresh the duration of a 15 second DOT would have some weird edge case implications. I don't know about using Exorcism to add stacks, that does seem a little confusing.

What would be great is turning Consecrate into our Pestilence and allow it to spread the DOT to other targets in the area. That's a random thought, and probably pretty broken.

We would want to keep Exo and Cons in reserve, or at least use the cooldowns with more of an eye for upcoming movement phases. Necessarily Blizz would have to adjust the damage from CS, DS and Judge to have them work as the majority of our damage, then have Exo and Cons work as situational adjustments to our setup DOT. Or you know, burn phases.

Protien · 07/28/09, 4:31 PM

For the record, if you swap while a GCD is already used, no second or longer GCD is created. As in, make a macro to CS --> switch, you wouldn't have a GCD penalty.

Oh, and if the new libram has a 45 sec internal cooldown, it's almost on par with the Relentless Gladiator's Libram. In short, an upgrade for folks like I who don't really PvP, but a sidegrade for hardcore PvPers. It's not even a huge leap from the Furious Libram. Again the dreaded movement (running from a boss during a libram proc) could set the Valiance libram below Furious.

My (maybe slightly vague) question based on these two statements would have to be ; Does swapping a libram mid-combat remove the given Libram's Buff, or incur an ICD for a libram with an ICD?

Based on the very slight extension of the GCD if you macro it, and the assumption that you do not lose the buff when changing librams, would not the optimal setup be to have BOTH librams, and then macro (as an example) the following setup?

With a cast of Divine Storm, equip the Gladiator Libram.
With a cast of Crusader Strike, equip the Emblem Libram.

Since the gladiator libram has an uptime of 10 seconds, and DS a C/D of 10 seconds, you can generally estimate that every time you cast DS, you would be about to need to refresh the libram buff. Granted with C/D clashes, you may want to macro this to a slightly shorter C/D ability, I.e. Judgement.

Once you cast Crusader Strike, you now have the libram buff, and so you are free to swap back to the emblem libram to hope for a proc.

This is of course completely reliant on the swap during GCD working, and that swapping the librams does not remove the buff. Edit : (And that you don't mash the heck out of the buttons and incur the swap before the GCD allows the spell cast)
I don't personally have the time to play on the PTR due to school, so I would appreciate if this would be tested by someone, if the answer is not already known.

• Zurm · 07/28/09, 4:33 PM

Originally Posted by Protien

Based on the very slight extension of the GCD if you macro it, and the assumption that you do not lose the buff when changing librams, would not the optimal setup be to have BOTH librams, and then macro (as an example) the following setup?

Swapping a weapon or libram resets the swing timer. No, it is never worth it to macro that.

Exemplar · 07/28/09, 4:40 PM

Originally Posted by narshanna

The DoT component of SoV keeps being both holy and partially resisted (boss target dummy in the PTR, a few minutes ago):

Capital. Indeed, it's just a wording change on their end, and a bad one at that.

Originally Posted by flyingtoastr

They won't do that though. The entire point of this change is to make SoV completely unusable in PvP to shoehorn SoC into being used for something... anything.

I understand the intent, but it doesn't boost SoC. SoR is still superior to SoC unless mana regen via Glyph is necessary. Even without SotP if you glyph SoR (easy for PvP, since Consecration is unnecessary) it's in near distance of SoC. JoR also hits and crits for more than JoC - close to double. Burst on demand is probably more useful in PvP than a minor boost in seal damage.

This still leaves SoC as useless in every situation. Altering SoV does not change this fact, it merely impacts SoV usage - discouraging its use in PvP and again impacting PvE seriously. If they want SoC used in PvP, give it a buff - such as a snare effect and ditch JoJustice entirely.

If you do not have everything off cooldown, for example are pressuring someone in arena, and swap to a new target even with specials proccing it's probably about 8 seconds to stack to five. 3 auto attack and 2 CS or a CS+Judge. The autoattack won't even happen at 0 seconds, too, since it was active on your last target.

I understand and appreciate balance issues in PvP. Trying to poison an ability against PvP use almost invariably fails, the goal is to make other items desirable in PvP. SoC still lacks a home except when leveling, poor little thing.

endo · 07/28/09, 4:43 PM

Originally Posted by flyingtoastr

More likely we'll see some sort of mechanic to either allow us to spread stacks (a la Pestilence) or a way to stack it faster but still slow enough that it doesn't affect PvP (allowing one special to stack it, most likely CS or DS).

I could see them tying it to just CS and AA, or just CS, but lowering the required DOT applications to 3. Personally, I like the idea of tying the 33% seal proc aspect to a self buff. This is all purely speculation though. What I do know is that AA's don't take much skill.

I am a first time poster and a long time reader.

Protien · 07/28/09, 4:47 PM

Ah right, I forgot about the swing timer reset. Bummer, that's too bad.

I suppose if you ran a swing timer mod and watched it really closely? Ah, but that'd be ridiculous amounts of effort. Wasn't there a macro at some point that hunters used that kept them from clipping an auto shot with a steady shot (in TBC)? Perhaps an adaption of that would allow you to twist it periodically without completely destroying your white swings?

I don't remember exactly what functionality that macro involved, as I didn't pay attention to hunters. I suppose I could go hunting around trying to dig it up, though I'm not sure I'd find posts still from the Sunwell-ish time frame.

Perhaps I'm just horribly horribly mistaken about hunters using something to that effect in Sunwell. That could be too.

Exemplar · 07/28/09, 4:54 PM

Originally Posted by Protien

Ah right, I forgot about the swing timer reset. Bummer, that's too bad.

I suppose if you ran a swing timer mod and watched it really closely? Ah, but that'd be ridiculous amounts of effort. Wasn't there a macro at some point that hunters used that kept them from clipping an auto shot with a steady shot (in TBC)? Perhaps an adaption of that would allow you to twist it periodically without completely destroying your white swings?

I don't remember exactly what functionality that macro involved, as I didn't pay attention to hunters. I suppose I could go hunting around trying to dig it up, though I'm not sure I'd find posts still from the Sunwell-ish time frame.

Perhaps I'm just horribly horribly mistaken about hunters using something to that effect in Sunwell. That could be too.

Resetting autoattack = loss of DPS.
Waiting on any GCD = loss of DPS.

Swapping Libram on another GCD resets autoattack. Swapping right after an autoattack incurs GCD.

In order to NOT lose DPS you would need to use an ability right when autoattack reset. Not before, not after.

It's probably possible 2 or 3 times in a minute. But for 20-30 seconds you could have the "wrong" libram equipped and be unable to change it. And heaven forbid you do something human and hit your swap macro instead of your normal ability.

As Zurm said - no go.

TheEnder · 07/28/09, 5:04 PM

I'm seeing unconfirmed reports that the badge libram does in fact have a 45sec ICD. This would make it, as usual, worse than the PVP librams.

I am unable to access the PTR at the moment, but could someone who is running tests confirm or deny?