Double procs seem fixed on the PTR now, as of the 7/30 build. Also, SoV now does partial Seal damage from each melee attack/special even before 5 stacks, gonna assume something like ~6% per point. If anyone could tell me how to get a clean log of it, I'd post the proof.

EDIT: Sorry, double procs not fixed yet.

With 5/5 SotP but no Seal of Righteousness glyph, is it still better than Command on a very quick fight? I'm thinking of Yogg tentacles and guardians to be specific.

Without Seals of the Pure, it's 6.6/13.2/19.8/26.4/33% Weapon Damage

With Seals of the Pure, it's 7.6/15.2/22.8/30.4/38% Weapon Damage

Seems like a pretty decent compromise. I wonder how this will effect SoR vs SoV usage.

It will definately lower the time-window where SoR is better.

Obviously we'd still go with SoR in AOE situations; but if you have even 6-7 seconds to be on a single target i think SoV may outstrip SoR just because of the increased judgement damage.

Again; I am posting from a location where I can't run any tests and I don't have my spreadsheets. But from looking at it and doing some basic napkin math having enough time to get 2-3 stacks and unload a judge or two may be enough to make SoV the seal to go with.

Considering that SoV isn't double proccing, and they apparently recoded it to specifically proc off certain specials, I think it's intended.

Good point. FYI SoComm is still displaying its bizarre behavior of not proccing off Divine Storm (and Judgement) when outside of 5 ft melee range, as of the most recent build.

From the re-wording they gave seals; seals will proc off of 'any melee ability'.

Specials and white attacks are considered 'melee' (besides concecration/exorcism) for all purposes. (Hit/haste/crit/ etc.) Stands to reasons that seals would proc off of a judgement if it is considered melee.

Not sure if Blizzard wants this to be true or not; but it was the case the last time I managed to do any serious tests.

Seals are not analogous to hunter aspects. If anything they share more parity with weapon imbues and poisons. They should be a choice pre combat with repercussions to changing them mid combat.

I completely agree with this. As much as I would love to be able to change seals on the fly, I agree that there needs to be a little repercussion. I rarely ever have mana problems on Ulduar25 so even with the mana cost, I should still be able to switch seals as I see fit as long as I'm smart about it.

Unfortunately, the current state of seals and the current direction of PVE content forces us to change seals mid-combat.

I agree the choice to change should have a cost; but we're going to have to make that choice if we want to min-max damage.

I've got a question with regards to SoC versus SoR in 3.2.

I'm using Rawr Version 2.2.10, with the 3.2 model which for all I know is fairly accurate in terms of everything except for the recent change to Vengeance.

With my current gear I get the following numbers.

SoR & 5/5 SotP: 5338 DPS
SoR & 5/5 SotP, Glyph of SoR: 5425 DPS
SoR & 5/5 SotP, Glyph of SoR and SoV and consecration (drop Glyph of Judgement): 5363 DPS

SoC: 5387 DPS
SoC & Glyph of SoC (drop Glyph of Judgement): 5346 DPS

Here's my question. Where is this argument that SoR >>>> SoC? To me it looks like SoC and SoR are almost identical, with the question being is losing a talent point for SoC worth gaining the extra glyph slot or the ability to get 8% mana back on judgement?

Using the BiS gear from the 3.1 BiS thread I get the following numbers:
SoR 5/5 SotP: 6208
SoR 5/5 SotP, Glyph of SoR, Judgement, Cons: 6279
SoR 5/5 SotP, Glyph of SoR, SoV, Cons: 6205

SoC: 6190 DPS
SoC: Glyph of SoV, SoC, Cons: 6143 DPS

Here's my argument. You're only going to really be using these potential setups:

SoR Unglyphed; SoR, SoV, Cons; SoC unglyphed; SoC, SoV, Cons

This is because almost invariably every fight is going to have a Single Target component so you will need glyph of SoV.

So your DPS comparisons are;

My gear:

5338 or 5363 for SoR, 5387 or 5346 + 8% mana on judgement for SoC.

BiS 3.1 Gear:

6208 or 6205 for SoR, 6190 or 6143 + 8% mana on judgement for SoC.

First of all, I'd hardly say those differences are massive. Secondly, I personally would appreciate the mana on judgement component of the Glyph of SoC considering the high cost of changing seals. Since switching to SoR or SoC is invariably a temporary measure, you're going to be incurring 2 seal swaps, that's pretty mana intensive. Having the glyph of SoC available to swap in in those situations might be helpful, and completely unglyphed, SoC seems to be more powerful or about equal to SoR unglyphed.

Not to mention, because SoC is primarily lacking in Judgement damage, in a multi-target situation the ratio of Seal damage to Judgement damage goes up and swings things even further in SoC's favor: (Rawr is telling me that with standard glyphs (SoV, Judgement, Consecration) in the 3.1 BiS gear, Command is doing 9145 DPS in a 4 target situation, Righteousness is doing 9036 DPS.

So what is it about these numbers that is making SoR so much better than SoC?

Is the current Rawr model incorrect for SoR and SoC damage? (as far as I know it's not changed since this past release)

[e] Furthermore, it looks like in the absence of short term debuffs (sunder, misery, CoE, Scorch) the difference remains about constant

[e2] Upon further reflection I'm changing my mind about the value of the judgement. The most frequent use of a seal like SoR or SoComm is in situations where we're running between low health monsters. In these situations judgement will be used frequently as it's the only ability we'll have to reliably deal damage while in transit. I was mostly considering the impact of additional adds (which favors command) in a static engagement. In an encounter where your time from first judgement is around 8 seconds or less the value of judgement is pretty high. I still think in general SoR and SoC are closer than given credit for generally, but the ability to hit a stronger judgement while traveling I think could tip it in SoR's favor. A couple of crits fills the gap, but that probably requires a more consistent time on target than can be assumed in an encounter such as that.