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Old 07/30/09, 7:27 PM   #766
Cruciata
Glass Joe
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Shu'halo
Originally Posted by Mist View Post
Double procs seem fixed on the PTR now, as of the 7/30 build. Also, SoV now does partial Seal damage from each melee attack/special even before 5 stacks, gonna assume something like ~6% per point. If anyone could tell me how to get a clean log of it, I'd post the proof.

EDIT: Sorry, double procs not fixed yet.
Confirmed the partial seal damage from each stack before hitting 5 of SoV.

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Old 07/30/09, 8:07 PM   #767
flyingtoastr
Bald Bull
 
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Human Paladin
 
Draka
Originally Posted by zeidrich View Post
So what is it about these numbers that is making SoR so much better than SoC?
SoR is simply better in current gear setups, as your own numbers show. It isn't beating SoC to a bloody pulp, but there is a noticible difference, and the goal of these forums is absolute min-max. Thus SoR is better than SoC, even if it isn't a huge gap.

Eventually its nearly guaranteed that SoC will overtake SoR in terms of damage - it scales with two very powerful and important stats (base weapon damage and crit) which SoR does not - but at the moment SoR is a better choice and even frees up a talent point to boot.

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Old 07/30/09, 8:10 PM   #768
Redcape
King Hippo
 
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Dwarf Paladin
 
Vek'nilash
Given this recent change to partial ramping up, we can safely conclude that SoV is equal to SoR if the target lives 12 seconds. This is based on the fact that SoV ramps up to full speed at 11 (raidbuffed 2.8 swing timer) seconds and since it is about %227 as good as SoR when fully stacked it should mean that the break even point is pretty much right where SoV fully stacks up. Now we do lose a bit from a smaller JoV in that time, but that is accounted for by the slightly better than double return on SoV. I expect until we get that 1500 damage dot at 12 seconds from SoV though we aren't actually breaking even.

Given this, it is safe to say that SoV is useful on an awful lot of Ulduar still. It is junk on Freya lashers, but better on trio, conservator and p2 sections. We will still need to swap to SoR for p1, p2 Yogg, but in those situations reducing our damage intake a little is also of value so it probably isn't a huge deal.

I played around with my sheet a little and with 5/5 SotP I show the following dps values with my gearset:

SoR with 5/5 SotP: 5466
SoB: 5957
SoV in 3.2 with 5/5 SotP: 6637

All gear and buffs selections are identical. Over the first 12 seconds of the fight I would guesstimate SoV to be operating at 5500 dps or so averaged out. Given these numbers, we are probably going to do the same damage in 3.2 as currently once we have been hitting the target for 19 seconds or so. After that we just sail away to a 700 dps buff. On Thorim this will easily amount to a 10% overall dps increase on the boss, and likely a 10% loss on the adds with SoR.

So with the current implementation we can basically be confident that if we have to target swap every 30 seconds we will be getting a noticeable dps buff. Our trash damage is going down, but we are losing our self damage, so in the end I think blizzard probably accomplished what they set out to do. Our burst is worse, our sustained is up a lot, and reasonable target switches like 30 seconds are completely manageable. This is going to force more micromanagement of our mana and GCDs, but a little more interactivity in our combat is something a lot of people have been calling for anyway.

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Old 07/30/09, 8:14 PM   #769
Tobrexa
Von Kaiser
 
Human Paladin
 
Kel'Thuzad (EU)
I can confirm it too, my SoV dmg ranged from 183 to 1564 on the IF boss puppet, for my non-crit-hits. It also showed up in the combatlog.
SoV still procs off Judgement by the way. As many already pointed out, I think we can assume it works as intended.

JoV in itself is independant of weapon damage, it scales only with AP, or am I mistaken?

How much value is attributed to weapon speed and dps, given that SoV also procs off JoV, and SoV scales per definition off weapon dmg? (SoV turned out approximatively 24% total dmg on said boss puppet).

Last edited by Tobrexa : 07/30/09 at 8:40 PM.

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Old 07/30/09, 8:24 PM   #770
Angel of Wrath
Von Kaiser
 
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Blood Elf Paladin
 
Anetheron (EU)
I can also confirm that SoV now procs partial seal damage, depending on the number of stacks. However, due to Berserk procs, it's hard to figure out the percentage, but it should be roughly 20% of the final seal damage per stack.

On a different note, because I was lucky to find someone to test the Dininity - JoL matter:

I can now confirm that Divinity does increase the heal of JoL for all raid members. Proof:

JoL + Divinity

As you can see, my Judgement heals the other Paladin for 479 which is:

21774*(JoL*Divinity)*Divinity(Received Healing)= 21774*(0.02*1.05)*1.05=480
Without the increased Healing on JoL, he would only receive 457 HP per proc.

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Old 07/30/09, 8:38 PM   #771
Wrathblood
Don Flamenco
 
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Blood Elf Paladin
 
Drenden
Why aren't pally seals like hunter aspects? Rather, why are pally seals like hunter aspects USED to be but aren't anymore?

Hunter aspects were made free when it became clear hunters were balanced around changing aspects mid-fight for mana regen because of AoV. The question now is whether Ret paladins are expected to be balanced around switching seals (AoE vs single target) mid-fight or not. I suspect Blizz is thinking "not" in part because of fears of someone thinking up a way to seal-twist. However, its a pretty clunky system right now, and if it turns out that Rets are consistently swapping seals mid-fight and no one finds a productive way to seal twist, this would be smoother solution to Ret seals.


Edit - restructured my comments abit

Last edited by Wrathblood : 07/30/09 at 8:50 PM.

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Old 07/30/09, 8:40 PM   #772
Charmin
Piston Honda
 
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Blood Elf Paladin
 
Shadowmoon
Originally Posted by Tobrexa View Post
I can confirm it too, my SoV dmg ranged from 183 to 1564 on the IF boss puppet, for my non-crit-hits. It also showed up in the combatlog.
SoV still procs off Judgement by the way. As many already pointed out, I think we can assume it works as intended.

JoV in itself is independant of weapon damage, it scales only with AP, or am I mistaken?

How much value is attributed to weapon speed and dps, given that SoV also procs off JoV, and SoV scales per definition off weapon dmg. (SoV turned out approximatively 24% total dmg on said boss puppet).
Also confirmed. Blood Corruption still only applied by white attacks, but all specials (Judgement, Crusader Strike and Divine Storm) now proc Seal of Vengeance based on the amount of stacks that are up on the target but again only the targets with our DoT. The partial SoV procs can still crit however. You can easily test this by placing the DoT and Judging from ranged or using Divine Storm while auto-attack is not active.

I was trying to see how much per stack, but I had to log over to the Live servers for raid. I expect Exemplar or Redcape to have numbers for us soon.

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Old 07/30/09, 8:41 PM   #773
 zeidrich
Yet again, dead again.
 
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Goblin Warrior
 
Mal'Ganis
Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post
SoR is simply better in current gear setups, as your own numbers show. It isn't beating SoC to a bloody pulp, but there is a noticible difference, and the goal of these forums is absolute min-max. Thus SoR is better than SoC, even if it isn't a huge gap.

Eventually its nearly guaranteed that SoC will overtake SoR in terms of damage - it scales with two very powerful and important stats (base weapon damage and crit) which SoR does not - but at the moment SoR is a better choice and even frees up a talent point to boot.
Well, unbuffed in my PTR gear, SoC was overtaking SoR and my PTR gear was pretty bad. Given that raid buffs will affect SoC damage better than SoR damage the gap widens. SoR can be brought up to about the same level as SoC if you use a glyph slot (which means you sacrifice judgement damage).

I don't consider 5-10 DPS a noticable difference. Especially when you have to consider things like the loss of a glyph slot to make it even into that 5-10 DPS difference.

On my brief PTR excursion this evening:

Damage 1786-2122
Speed 3.22
Power 3978
Spell Power: 1193

SoV procs at 5 stack: 730-790 + DoT
SoR procs: Exactly 712
SoC procs: 723-841

Now consider you'll get 10% more from glyphing SoR, however, you get Crit% more from the fact that SoC crits. I just don't see how the numbers add up, all I see is people say things like

Originally Posted by Zurm View Post
In addition I'm fairly certain (though not 100% so) that even factoring in crit SoR >>> SoC.
Which from everything I can see, is not true.

Using unarmed so, +-1 damage range I got the following damage numbers from the seal at each stack level:
1: 44 - 6.66%
2: 89 - 13.5%
3: 132 - 20%
4: 177 - 26.8%
5: 220 - 33%

From that I'd assume it's just straight: 6.66%, 13.33%, 20%, 26.66%, 33%

Originally Posted by bartolimu
Believe it or not, I'm sorry it came to this. Not really intensely sorry, but that kind of mildly disappointed, resigned sorry that happens when I see a puppy walk head-first into a window, back up, stare bewildered at it for a second, then walk head-first into the window again.

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Old 07/30/09, 8:53 PM   #774
Charmin
Piston Honda
 
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Blood Elf Paladin
 
Shadowmoon
Originally Posted by zeidrich View Post
Using unarmed so, +-1 damage range I got the following damage numbers from the seal at each stack level:
1: 44 - 6.66%
2: 89 - 13.5%
3: 132 - 20%
4: 177 - 26.8%
5: 220 - 33%

From that I'd assume it's just straight: 6.66%, 13.33%, 20%, 26.66%, 33%
Could you tell if each stack was affected by Seal of the Pure or if that only affected the final 5 stack?

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Old 07/30/09, 8:53 PM   #775
Pdawg
Von Kaiser
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Tichondrius
Originally Posted by Redcape View Post
Our trash damage is going down, but we are losing our self damage, so in the end I think blizzard probably accomplished what they set out to do. Our burst is worse, our sustained is up a lot, and reasonable target switches like 30 seconds are completely manageable. This is going to force more micromanagement of our mana and GCDs, but a little more interactivity in our combat is something a lot of people have been calling for anyway.
I'm not so sure that Blizzard intended for seal swapping. Not only is the mana cost of swapping a bit high, but the PvE libram becomes useless for much of the encounters and forces us to grind out arena ranking for a libram to use in PvE once again.

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Old 07/30/09, 8:59 PM   #776
 zeidrich
Yet again, dead again.
 
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Goblin Warrior
 
Mal'Ganis
Originally Posted by Charmin View Post
Could you tell if each stack was affected by Seal of the Pure or if that only affected the final 5 stack?
All stacks were affected equally.

Originally Posted by bartolimu
Believe it or not, I'm sorry it came to this. Not really intensely sorry, but that kind of mildly disappointed, resigned sorry that happens when I see a puppy walk head-first into a window, back up, stare bewildered at it for a second, then walk head-first into the window again.

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Old 07/30/09, 9:03 PM   #777
Wrathblood
Don Flamenco
 
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Blood Elf Paladin
 
Drenden
If Blizz has quietly implemented a gradually stacking system, allowing for an actual ramp up of seal damage rather than the "rocket liftoff" scenario we have been expecting, then that pretty much ends the discussion of seal swapping. My napkin math says that SoV will now match SoR/C after (very roughly) 3 auto-attacks, which is ~6 seconds of ramp-up time, or half as long as it was before. Sure, you could start a fight with SoR and then swap, but the lost time will kill any advantage.

Wow, this makes me really happy. I really hope its intended.

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Old 07/30/09, 9:24 PM   #778
Tobrexa
Von Kaiser
 
Human Paladin
 
Kel'Thuzad (EU)
Originally Posted by Wrathblood View Post
Sure, you could start a fight with SoR and then swap, but the lost time will kill any advantage.
You would still have to apply the dot-stacks, so SoR without fast-targetswapping makes no sense.

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Old 07/30/09, 9:34 PM   #779
Seferio
Glass Joe
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Thaurissan
I think the stacking damage numbers seem to error on the cautious side, especially with 0 damage being done with 0 stacks. Fights with minor AoE will see a significant damage reduction where Divine Storm will never proc Seal damage on mobs. People advocating Seal swapping in that situation need to seriously look at the mana efficiency issue and the fact that there are only very few collision free GCDs to apply a Seal swap without delaying a damaging attack (and incurring a damage penalty).

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Old 07/30/09, 11:47 PM   #780
Brekkie
Glass Joe
 
Draenei Paladin
 
Windrunner
Also, I'd like to bring up what I think is a very important point for comparison with other classes. I'm not tremendously familiar with other classes, but my impression is that most of them have short-term burst options instead of doing their ramp up. For example, a rogue or druid might do a 2-3 CP finisher instead of 5, getting less than ideal DPS, but better than just doing subpar ramp-up DPS on a target that doesn't live long enough to realize the benefits of that ramp. Affliction locks might just spam SB, and mages might forego scorch in favor of fireball. (Disclaimer: I don't know if any of those specific examples are correct.)

The problem with ret is that we have no such option. Seals are too expensive to switch mid combat more than just a time or two per boss fight. (Side note: why? Ret seals are undispellable in PVP anyway, why not make them also 0 mana cost with the same talent? That would open up a ton of strategic possibilities--maybe even make SoW a viable option for regenning mana, similar to hunters' AoV.) We don't have a ramp-up sequence of abilities, we have a "sorry, you have to wait" period. The more I think about it, the more I feel like removing the mana cost for seals (and ideally removing them from the GCD as well, but we can probably make do without that if needed) would make this change substantially more palatable, and I don't see any significant abuses of that off hand.
While I agree completely with your point about us having no "option" to the ramp-up, removing seals from the GCD would be a mistake.
If seals were removed from the GCD it would be most definately a DPS increase to do some form of seal-twisting, where you stack vengeance to five, then swap to say righteousness, swapping back to vengeance each time you need to refresh the dot stack, and swapping to whatever has the biggest judgement damage right before each judgement.

While on the one hand that would be a lot more skill-based than currently, we'd effectively be carrying out two different rotations at once, the damage rotation and the seal rotation. I think thats a little bit much to ask.

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