3.2 PTR - Retribution Discussion - Page 55

Maelstrom · 07/31/09, 5:14 PM

Originally Posted by Jadence

1. Currently, Prot will still use SoV as their main seal, given the fact that it still provides the most threat, the awesome glyph to give them 10 more expertise, as well as being able to apply to multiple mobs using HotR. But, has anyone seen if this will end up clashing with Ret using the same seal? I was under the impression that there cannot be more than 1 stack of Holy Vengeance on the mob at one time. So will Prot override Ret and our DPS will suffer? Or will Ret override Prot and the tank suffers with threat? On a sidenote, if the stack counts for both Prot and Ret, and you have two pallies applying it, will it stack faster and therefore even reduce our ramp up time more, giving SoV more viability?

There can be multiple holy vengeance stacks quite happily.

Gripefruit · 07/31/09, 5:37 PM

Originally Posted by Jadence

2. With the changes to JoL, it seems that this will be the Seal of choice for Ret. How do you convince your tank to use JoW instead?

This confuses me. JoL is being nerfed to 2% max health, how does it become the judgement of choice? And if your tank is using JoL, just use JoW yourself - what's the net difference?

3. For anyone on the PTR that might be able to test this.... if you apply a full stack of HV to one mob in an AoE group, then use DS... will the Seal proc on the 3 additional mobs as well, or will it only proc on the mob that has the full stack?

No, just full stack. Hence the unfortunate AoE nerf.

Alcapwnd · 07/31/09, 5:45 PM

Originally Posted by Jadence

2. With the changes to JoL, it seems that this will be the Seal of choice for Ret. How do you convince your tank to use JoW instead?

It's 2% of base health regardless of which paladin applies it.

Angel of Wrath · 07/31/09, 6:09 PM

Originally Posted by Jadence

1. Currently, Prot will still use SoV as their main seal, given the fact that it still provides the most threat, the awesome glyph to give them 10 more expertise, as well as being able to apply to multiple mobs using HotR. But, has anyone seen if this will end up clashing with Ret using the same seal? I was under the impression that there cannot be more than 1 stack of Holy Vengeance on the mob at one time. So will Prot override Ret and our DPS will suffer? Or will Ret override Prot and the tank suffers with threat? On a sidenote, if the stack counts for both Prot and Ret, and you have two pallies applying it, will it stack faster and therefore even reduce our ramp up time more, giving SoV more viability?

2. With the changes to JoL, it seems that this will be the Seal of choice for Ret. How do you convince your tank to use JoW instead?

1. Maelstrom is right - every Paladin has his own stack for SoV and the seal procs only check your number of stacks on the target. E.g. a Paladin tank has 5 stacks of SoV on the target and you only 2 stacks. SoV would proc for only 2 stacks for you.

2. It's not exactly true that it doesn't matter which Paladin applies JoL - if possible, it should be done by somebody who has 5/5 Divinity for 2.1% heal instead of 2% (if you want to go for min/max).

Originally Posted by Angel of Wrath

I can now confirm that Divinity does increase the heal of JoL for all raid members. Proof:

JoL + Divinity

As you can see, my Judgement heals the other Paladin for 479 which is:

21774*(JoL*Divinity)*Divinity(Received Healing)= 21774*(0.02*1.05)*1.05=480
Without the increased Healing on JoL, he would only receive 457 HP per proc.

• frmorrison · 07/31/09, 6:12 PM

Originally Posted by Vinsent

Looking at the standard 5/11/55 build and what 2 point talent (Might, PoJ, Vindication) to get just 1 of I keep coming back to Improved Judgment.

Note sure what you are saying, but you want 2/2 Judgement because sometimes the cooldown on Judgement is 8.5 seconds.

Originally Posted by Gripefruit

This confuses me. JoL is being nerfed to 2% max health, how does it become the judgement of choice? And if your tank is using JoL, just use JoW yourself - what's the net difference?

The Prot/Holy will most likely not have 5/5 Divinity, so keep judging Light (assuming you have the talent). 5% of 2% isn't much, but everything helps.

HamSlammer · 07/31/09, 6:21 PM

Originally Posted by Jadence

1. Currently, Prot will still use SoV as their main seal, given the fact that it still provides the most threat, the awesome glyph to give them 10 more expertise, as well as being able to apply to multiple mobs using HotR. But, has anyone seen if this will end up clashing with Ret using the same seal? I was under the impression that there cannot be more than 1 stack of Holy Vengeance on the mob at one time. So will Prot override Ret and our DPS will suffer? Or will Ret override Prot and the tank suffers with threat? On a sidenote, if the stack counts for both Prot and Ret, and you have two pallies applying it, will it stack faster and therefore even reduce our ramp up time more, giving SoV more viability?

2. With the changes to JoL, it seems that this will be the Seal of choice for Ret. How do you convince your tank to use JoW instead?

3. For anyone on the PTR that might be able to test this.... if you apply a full stack of HV to one mob in an AoE group, then use DS... will the Seal proc on the 3 additional mobs as well, or will it only proc on the mob that has the full stack?

1.) Mobs can have more than a singular stack of Holy Vengeance, so there is no liability between Prot and Ret.

2.) There is no difference between JoLs in 3.2 unless you factor in 5/5 Divinity. That said, our JoL will still be strongest/tied for strongest in a raid situation, if you opt for Divinity.

3.) Divine Storm's interaction is slightly odd with Seal of Vengeance (I've posted about this numerous times previously). Divine Storm will "throw" the direct damage proc up to roughly 100~ yard. To produce this effect, build a 5stack on a mob, then target a different mob in LoS within 100~ yards, and hit Divine Storm. Divine Storm sends all of the direct damage procs to your target, up to a total of 4x procs instantly on a singular target. This effect will be very limited in real raiding scenarios, seeing as it basically requires the presence of a Prot Paladin to pull off and the various targets living for, at least, 30 seconds at a time (enough time to build a 5stack w/ just HotR).

HamSlammer · 07/31/09, 6:41 PM

I just conducted a quick test of how Seal of Vengeance interacts with other SoV stacks from different Paladins.

If you currently do not have a Holy Vengeance debuff applied to the target, SoV's proc potency is based off of the highest current stack.
If you currently do have at least one stack of Holy Vengeance, SoV's proc potency is based off of your stack.

This has no negative effects, only slight positive gains. Upon swapping to a target tanked by a Prot Paladin, you might gain a full damage SoV proc before your own Holy Vengeance debuff is applied. In multi-target situations where a pack of mobs lives for 30~ or more seconds, you'll potentially gain extra SoV proc(s) on Divine Storm (Elemental wave in Freya or Kologarn, for instance).

Basically, a Prot Paladin is a slight, situational DPS upgrade for us in the way a Unholy DK is for a SPriest, or an Arms Warrior is for a Feral Drood (probably not to the tune of the same DPS value, but same concept).

mrbreck · 07/31/09, 7:36 PM

So that sounds like, as far as min/max is concerned, in an AoE situation where your tank is a Prot Pally, it's ideal for your target to be something other than the tank's target (unless threat is a concern).

Mist · 08/01/09, 3:00 AM

Removed, incorrect info.

Jadence · 08/01/09, 3:12 AM

Originally Posted by HamSlammer

2.) There is no difference between JoLs in 3.2 unless you factor in 5/5 Divinity. That said, our JoL will still be strongest/tied for strongest in a raid situation, if you opt for Divinity.

Yeah, this was kind of what I was aiming for. Currently there is myself and a Prot Pally who have almost 100% raid attendence, so we work out what specs we have so we can bring as much to the table as possible. Just wanted to get some clarification on that.

Jadence · 08/01/09, 3:15 AM

Originally Posted by HamSlammer

I just conducted a quick test of how Seal of Vengeance interacts with other SoV stacks from different Paladins.

If you currently do not have a Holy Vengeance debuff applied to the target, SoV's proc potency is based off of the highest current stack.
If you currently do have at least one stack of Holy Vengeance, SoV's proc potency is based off of your stack.

This has no negative effects, only slight positive gains. Upon swapping to a target tanked by a Prot Paladin, you might gain a full damage SoV proc before your own Holy Vengeance debuff is applied. In multi-target situations where a pack of mobs lives for 30~ or more seconds, you'll potentially gain extra SoV proc(s) on Divine Storm (Elemental wave in Freya or Kologarn, for instance).

Basically, a Prot Paladin is a slight, situational DPS upgrade for us in the way a Unholy DK is for a SPriest, or an Arms Warrior is for a Feral Drood (probably not to the tune of the same DPS value, but same concept).

So assuming a Paladin tank has a full stack, we're already at the 33% extra damage threshold, and only need to wait for our own five stack before we can get out extra damage kicking in from talents. That's nice.

The next question is, working as intended or a minor bug?

HamSlammer · 08/01/09, 3:38 AM

Originally Posted by Jadence

So assuming a Paladin tank has a full stack, we're already at the 33% extra damage threshold, and only need to wait for our own five stack before we can get out extra damage kicking in from talents. That's nice.

I think you misread what I posted. That, or my post was unclear. If a mob has a 5stack from another Paladin and zero stacks from you, you'll deal the 33% Weapon Damage proc on CS, DS, and Judgement. The moment you apply your own Holy Vengeance debuff from a white swing, you reset to the proc damage to coincide with the amount of stacks you have. Meaning, if you have a single Holy Vengeance debuff (IE you've only landed one auto-attack), you will trigger a 7%~ SoV proc on CS, DS, and Judgement.

The window to gain extra SoV procs during a target swap is extremely tiny, at most 2 GCDs worth of extra 33% procs, assuming full raid buffs.

And to what mrbreck posted, sort of. In an AoE situation with a Prot Paladin, it'll be beneficial to probably sit on the longest living mob, as Divine Storm will "throw" extra SoV procs at that target.

Wyan · 08/01/09, 5:08 AM

About JoL:
With the changes to Beacon of Light I think holy pals will really benefit more from it. And since Judgements are procing Seals, judging with Seal of Wisdom will probably be one of their way to get some mana back, so they'll judge more often.
I'll personnally leave JoL for holy pals when there are some in the raid, and then use JoW.

flexbutt · 08/01/09, 8:21 AM

Originally Posted by Wyan

About JoL:
With the changes to Beacon of Light I think holy pals will really benefit more from it. And since Judgements are procing Seals, judging with Seal of Wisdom will probably be one of their way to get some mana back, so they'll judge more often.
I'll personnally leave JoL for holy pals when there are some in the raid, and then use JoW.

The changes to Beacon of Light shouldn't have anything to do with what a paladin judges (unless I missed a bug report about everyone's JoL procs healing the beacon target, which is exactly what it is, a bug). I don't see what else you could be talking about, because other than that, holy paladins gain no more benefit from judging light than anyone else. If they can in fact proc seal of wisdom from a judgement, then judging wisdom will achieve the same exact goal.

Kandiru · 08/01/09, 10:30 AM

In 3.2 it really makes no difference who judges what, as long as whoever does JoL has 5/5 Divinity.

Most prot paladins judge wisdom or justice at the moment, but in 3.2 the problem with Judgements of the Just being knocked off by another judgement of the same type is fixed, so there will be no need to judge justice anymore. This means that most prot paladins will judge light on their target for the healing, until a ret or holy paladin with 5/5 divinity starts on their target, where they can judge wisdom instead. If you have an addon such as Utopia you can easily see if a mob has certain debuffs which makes it easy to judge the other one.