Is that over the same time period? I assume not because of the large variance in the number of consecrates... but regardless, interesting info.
It looks to be a similar time period based on the damage done divided by dps - 504 seconds on live and 501 seconds on ptr. Quite interesting to see so many more conescration ticks if that is the case.
Yeah. Was there more than one target in the second case? Anything else you could see that would dramatically increase consecrates damage/number of ticks?
Yeah. Was there more than one target in the second case? Anything else you could see that would dramatically increase consecrates damage/number of ticks?
It would appear not since DS has the same number of hits.
Is that over the same time period? I assume not because of the large variance in the number of consecrates... but regardless, interesting info.
It's the same time period. On live, I used Seal of Light to keep Seal of Blood damage healed. On PTR, since there's no recoil damage, I used Seal of Wisdom. Also, use Serious Help In Timing to moderate my consecration/mana usage. I had it set to not use consecrate under 2600 mana.
As far as multiple targets, both tests were done on the Heroic Boss Dummy in Silvermoon City. No other targets are within range of it.
Of course, that's just me... I could be wrong.
-Dennis Miller
I just finished a bit of testing on the PTR to see how we'd fare with our own BoW, JotW and JoW, using our current FCFS rotation with a Divine Plea used as soon as 5 stacks of vengeance were up, then every time as soon as it came off of CD.
The glyphs I have currently are Consecration, Judgement, and Exorcism.
My spec looks like 5/11/55 - 1 point into Command because I wasn't sure where to stick it, just yet.
I lasted 6:59, but this is without sacred shield, any hands or utility spells being used. I didn't pop wings or use Hammer at all. Granted, I didn't have INT or Kings, but I'll try to do some more testing with both a bit later.
I'm trying to figure out whether Blizz intends for us to drop Consecrate from our single target DPS rotation, since we OOM a lot quicker on the PTR compared to Live.
EDIT: I finished some testing with all of the mana buffs I could think of; INT, Kings, (my own unimproved) BoW (so no Might, but I don't think that matters), and Mark of the Wild.
I had to stop because my 10 minute Wisdom and Kings wore off - but my mana was at around 40% at that point. Without any utility spells being cast, wings, or Hammer usage, it looks like our mana is okay - but that's hardly any real-time testing in a raid situation. Has anyone been able to run anything on the PTR, yet?
Last edited by cleeeeeeeeeetus! : 06/28/09 at 1:26 AM.
I just finished a bit of testing on the PTR to see how we'd fare with our own BoW, JotW and JoW, using our current FCFS rotation with a Divine Plea used as soon as 5 stacks of vengeance were up, then every time as soon as it came off of CD.
I lasted 6:59, but this is without sacred shield, any hands or utility spells being used. I didn't pop wings or use Hammer at all. Granted, I didn't have INT or Kings, but I'll try to do some more testing with both a bit later.
I'm trying to figure out whether Blizz intends for us to drop Consecrate from our single target DPS rotation, since we OOM a lot quicker on the PTR compared to Live.
EDIT: I finished some testing with all of the mana buffs I could think of; INT, Kings, BoW, and Mark of the Wild.
I had to stop because my 10 minute Wisdom and Kings wore off - but my mana was at around 40% at that point. Without any utility spells being cast, wings, or Hammer usage, it looks like our mana is okay - but that's hardly any real-time testing in a raid situation. Has anyone been able to run anything on the PTR, yet?
Exorcism, Judgement, and Consecration. I haven't switched to the Vengeance seal as of yet, because I'm not sure if it's going to go Live in it's current form. I should probably clarify that, thank you
Exorcism, Judgement, and Consecration. I haven't switched to the Vengeance seal as of yet, because I'm not sure if it's going to go Live in it's current form. I should probably clarify that, thank you
What spec? Are you using 5/5 divine intellect by any chance?
EDIT: I finished some testing with all of the mana buffs I could think of; INT, Kings, (my own unimproved) BoW (so no Might, but I don't think that matters), and Mark of the Wild.
I had to stop because my 10 minute Wisdom and Kings wore off - but my mana was at around 40% at that point. Without any utility spells being cast, wings, or Hammer usage, it looks like our mana is okay - but that's hardly any real-time testing in a raid situation. Has anyone been able to run anything on the PTR, yet?
I'm personally not worried about mana in a raid situation (10man, possibly), as we're very mana positive. The CS change accounts for a -131 MP5 swing assuming an impossible rotation (all abilities done on CD). In a realistic situation with CS having an effective CD of 4.5 seconds, it's only a -90 MP5 swing.
To me, the big issue about mana is PvP. We're losing Glyph of Seal of Blood, which is nigh mandatory in some setups/against some comps, and a weaker initial Judgement, making absorbs even more detrimental to our staying power in PvP. And the only solution Blizzard has provided me is the Glyph of Seal of Command, which helps the Seal no sane Paladin would use.
I'm personally not worried about mana in a raid situation (10man, possibly), as we're very mana positive. The CS change accounts for a -131 MP5 swing assuming an impossible rotation (all abilities done on CD). In a realistic situation with CS having an effective CD of 4.5 seconds, it's only a -90 MP5 swing.
To me, the big issue about mana is PvP. We're losing Glyph of Seal of Blood, which is nigh mandatory in some setups/against some comps, and a weaker initial Judgement, making absorbs even more detrimental to our staying power in PvP. And the only solution Blizzard has provided me is the Glyph of Seal of Command, which helps the Seal no sane Paladin would use.
It seems like a few people have been wondering, so I simulated a few things the best I could. In a 25 man we should be perfectly fine, but 10 mans might push us a bit, without the proper buffs.
I'm personally not worried about mana in a raid situation (10man, possibly), as we're very mana positive. The CS change accounts for a -131 MP5 swing assuming an impossible rotation (all abilities done on CD). In a realistic situation with CS having an effective CD of 4.5 seconds, it's only a -90 MP5 swing.
To me, the big issue about mana is PvP. We're losing Glyph of Seal of Blood, which is nigh mandatory in some setups/against some comps, and a weaker initial Judgement, making absorbs even more detrimental to our staying power in PvP. And the only solution Blizzard has provided me is the Glyph of Seal of Command, which helps the Seal no sane Paladin would use.
Maybe I'm too optimistic, but after specifically stating their intentions that SoC should be for PvP and seeing 9 out of 10 paladins using SoV on PTR, I'd think SoC would see some changes prior to going live.
I'm already getting flak from my healers about no longer specing into Divine Sac in my PVE build post-3.2. Improved or otherwise. It's a bit too early to tell how important it will be what with some healer buffs coming in but I supose we could thin out the points in Ret a bit (Vind or maybe PoJ) and pick it up.
DiSac is so insanely stong atm because of the big bursts of predictable raid damage in ulduar.
Considering the AoE healing nerfs, it could very well be possible they drop this aspect in new bosses, making disac much less needed than it is now.
I personally won't be picking up vindication in my ret spec though.
DiSac is so insanely stong atm because of the big bursts of predictable raid damage in ulduar.
Considering the AoE healing nerfs, it could very well be possible they drop this aspect in new bosses, making disac much less needed than it is now.
I personally won't be picking up vindication in my ret spec though.
I think that Vind in a PVE ret spec is going to be really nice depending on raid comp. Warriors (and I supose druids, my first hand experience with them is limited) get some pretty decent mileage out of Demo shout and at least my guilds 10mans infrequently contains either a feral or warrior.
I'm not sure if this question has arose yet, but is Expertise good enough to the point where using Glyph of Vengeance over one of our current glyphs going to be a DPS increase
and which glyph would we replace? Consecration? Exorcism?
I'd much like to be able to cap Expertise with the glyph, but with how much clashing goes on I feel like we're stuck with GoCons
I spent some time simply writing down rotation the new rotation, using the current priorities as I don't think those are changing.
Time
Ability
0
Crusader Strike
1.5
Judgement
3
Divine Storm
4.5
Crusader Strike
6
Consecration
7.5
Exorcism
9
Crusader Strike
10.5
Judgement
12
Free Time
13
Crusader Strike
14.5
Divine Storm
16
Consecration
17.5
Crusader Strike
19
Judgement
20.5
Free Time
21.5
Crusader Strike
23
Exorcism
24.5
Divine Storm
26
Crusader Strike
27.5
Judgement
29
Consecration
30.5
Crusader Strike
32
Free Time
34.5
Repeat from start
If you end up substituting the earlier one second's worth of free time with a utility ability the entire rotation just delays by 0.5 seconds. Free time per rotation: 4.5 seconds, 1 long enough for a global cooldown. Abilities used per rotation: 8 Crusader Strikes, 4 Judgements, 3 Divine Storms, 3 Consecrations, 2 Exorcisms. Total time per rotation: 34.5 seconds.
Alternatively, if you start off with Judgement because you don't start off right next to whatever you're fighting (Which is pretty likely), we end up with this:
Time
Ability
0
Judgement
1.5
Crusader Strike
3
Divine Storm
4.5
Consecration
6.0
Crusader Strike
7.5
Exorcism
9
Judgement
10.5
Crusader Strike
12
Free Time
13
Divine Storm
14.5
Crusader Strike
16
Consecration
17.5
Judgement
19
Crusader Strike
20.5
Free Time
22.5
Exorcism
24
Crusader Strike
25.5
Judgement
27
Divine Storm
28.5
Crusader Strike
30
Consecration
31.5
Free Time
32.5
Crusader Strike
34
Judgement
35.5
Free Time
36.5
Crusader Strike
38
Divine Storm
39.5
Exorcism
41
Crusader Strike
42.5
Judgement
44
Consecration
45.5
Crusader Strike
47
Free Time
48
Divine Storm
49.5
Crusader Strike
51
Judgement
52.5
Free Time
53.5
Crusader Strike
55
Consecration
56.5
Exorcism
58
Crusader Strike
59.5
Judgement
61
Divine Storm
62.5
Crusader Strike
64
Free Time
65
Consecration
66.5
Crusader Strike
68
Judgement
69.5
Free Time
70.5
Repeat from 36.5
This one starts repeating as well after the first 36.5 seconds. Statistics here are for the repeating portion only. Free time: 4 seconds, 0 long enough for a full global cooldown. Abilities used per rotation: 8 Crusader Strikes, 4 Judgements, 3 Divine Storms, 3 Consecrations, 2 Exorcisms. Total time per rotation: 34 seconds. As with the other rotation, filling in the free time just delays everything by 0.5 seconds without changing your next ability to hit.
For the non-repeating portion, we get these statistics. Free time: 5 seconds, 1 long enough for a global cooldown. Abilities used: 8 Crusader Strikes, 5 Judgements, 3 Divine Storms, 3 Consecrations, 2 Exorcisms. Time taken: 36.5 seconds.
Note that regardless of whether you start with Judgement or Crusader Strike the amount of abilities used in each repeating part is equal. The rotation which originally started with Judgement first is slightly faster, though doesn't have a somewhat conveniently located bit of free time to use Divine Plea in, it instead always has to introduce a 0.5 second delay when using Divine Plea. Both rotations end up delaying Divine Plea by a few seconds if you don't want to cause more than a 0.5 second delay to your next offensive ability.
This is assuming you have the Glyph of Consecration, which does have a small impact on the "start with Judgement" rotation, on the first rotation it simply functions as a 25% increase to your Consecration damage, simply since you would not use it before at least 10 seconds have passed anyway.
Bad luck with critical hits can also somewhat affect your rotation, though it requires some really bad luck with the raid buffed crit chance you should usually have. Before the first Exorcism at 7.5 seconds you get 8 chances to proc Art of War, with a 40% crit rate (Which should be easy enough with raid buffs) that's a 1.6% chance of not getting a crit. The chance you won't have Art of War up on any of the later Exorcisms is even smaller. You'll get at least 12 chances to proc Art of War in the 15 seconds before any Exorcism, which puts us at a mere 0.2% chance of not getting a crit.
i see that no one has asked this question yet regarding the CS changes. given that CS has had its CD reduces to 4 seconds would it be wise to assume that Furious Gladiator's Scaled Gauntlets - Item - World of Warcraft will be BIS. i know that they have less strength and crit than the T8 gloves but would the 5% bonus to CS over right that?
i see that no one has asked this question yet regarding the CS changes. given that CS has had its CD reduces to 4 seconds would it be wise to assume that Furious Gladiator's Scaled Gauntlets - Item - World of Warcraft will be BIS. i know that they have less strength and crit than the T8 gloves but would the 5% bonus to CS over right that?
I don't see anything that's changed that would change that, it's cooldown is reduces but so is it's damage to make it relatively equal to what it is now, just less bursty and more sustained, so I don't know why the gauntlets would suddenly become BiS
I am not quite sure CS is still going to be 1st in priority. The new vengeance judgement is hitting like a truck on the PTR. I don't have the exact numbers, but it is pretty close to pre 3.1 blood levels. Once some more numbers are ran, and we have a pretty definitive idea on mana consumption, I wouldn't be surprised to see judgement return to #1. This would also help alleviate mana issues in 10 mans, especially now there won't be the Blood glyph to fall back on.
I am not quite sure CS is still going to be 1st in priority. The new vengeance judgement is hitting like a truck on the PTR. I don't have the exact numbers, but it is pretty close to pre 3.1 blood levels. Once some more numbers are ran, and we have a pretty definitive idea on mana consumption, I wouldn't be surprised to see judgement return to #1. This would also help alleviate mana issues in 10 mans, especially now there won't be the Blood glyph to fall back on.
That's a very good point and let's not forget that the seal proc damage on CS is lowered overall not just on a per proc basis. 48% MW/6 sec > 33% MW/4.5 sec (for those with a 92% or higher chance to land an attack).
I am not quite sure CS is still going to be 1st in priority. The new vengeance judgement is hitting like a truck on the PTR. I don't have the exact numbers, but it is pretty close to pre 3.1 blood levels. Once some more numbers are ran, and we have a pretty definitive idea on mana consumption, I wouldn't be surprised to see judgement return to #1. This would also help alleviate mana issues in 10 mans, especially now there won't be the Blood glyph to fall back on.
As usual, it doesn't matter what the raw damage is (otherwise Exorcism would handily take first priority). DPS based on effective cooldowns is still the rule of thumb for determining priority. At a 4 second cooldown CS loses some 20% of its total DPS by extending the effective cooldown by just one second. Judgement, at 8 seconds, loses only ~11% of its DPS for each second the effective cooldown is extended. Thus Judgement's DPS has to be that much larger than CS's to be worth more in the priority.
06/27/09, 6:51 PM
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