It isn't a guarantee that prot will be grabbing it, as it requires them to drop an additional 2 points out of conviction for it. (Though it is definitely worth grabbing if it's not being covered by someone else) Though it will be something to work out, per guild basis, depending on how many ret/prot paladins you typically bring.

Also, it's worth mentioning warriors/druids typically don't fully talent imp demo shout/roar. And I'm pretty sure 2/2 vindication is equivalent to the fully talented debuff. (I think untalented to talented is in the range of an extra ~5% damage reduction from the boss).

This isn't necessarily true with our new rotation. I will explain:

First, define GCD Jammed (GJ) as a situation where you have all GCDs spoken for. You do not have random gaps to fill things in. Define GCD Open (GO) as a situation where you have gaps in your rotation to fit things in on a regular basis.

When you are GO the mantra of 'highest dps first' is definitely true. You should delay by the smallest amount of dps possible because you know that that high damage ability with a long cooldown will fit in shortly. This currently describes our situation as of 3.1 which is why we use highest dps first.

When you are GJ though the math is different. You may not be able to fit in a high damage ability for a long time because you simply have no space, so you want to hit the highest damage ability first and not worry about cooldowns. Example:

Bonk: 1k damage, 3 sec cooldown
Bash: 1k damage, 3 sec cooldown
Crush: 4k damage, 20 sec cooldown

If these three abilities are all we have access to a 'highest dps' priority system our rotation would be

Bonk
Bash
Repeat

Clearly that is awful as we never use our Crush ability! The question is: Does changing CS to 4 seconds actually push us into a GJ situation? By pure Patchwerk 0 latency standards, it does not. However, real fights are not like that and we have to shift, watch the screen, listen to vent, etc. and nobody has a 0 latency. Doing those things reduces the number of abilities we can use and pushes us close to GJ. Given that we should be dropping out SS every minute, DP every minute, stunning every minute (situational, obv) Salving every 2 minutes, cleansing (situational), BOPing, DiSacing, LOH, etc. etc. we absolutely should be GJ if our utility is coming into play.

If we ARE GJ then we need to revert to a 'highest DAMAGE' priority system instead. I think in 3.1 we are pretty much never GJ, even on fights like Hodir where pretty much the full gamut of our utility is used. In 3.2 I think we will absolutely be GJ on that fight and on some others.

Modeling rotations assuming zero latency, perfect coordination, etc. only goes so far. If you want to find out if we are REALLY GJ or GO then you should go fight Ignis and look at the WWS. What are the ACTUAL effective cooldowns of your abilities? They probably are a lot worse than the spreadsheet cooldowns and that would suggest a differing priority should be considered.

Until we have these sorts of results from a relatively trivial tanknspank to work with I don't think we will know for sure whether we have crossed to GJ territory. I look forward to those results.

You missed the major point of my post Redcape.

Doing a Bonk > Bash rotation without using Crush does a total of 13000 damage over 21 seconds.

Now, if you include Crush as often as possible (assuming you don't waste free time the eCD is 21 seconds) you a Bonk every 21 seconds for a Crush. However you gain the damage that Crush does. You total damage for those 21 seconds is now 16000. As you can see, trading one Bonk or Bash for the higher damage Crush has resulted in more damage over the same period of time! Why is this?

We'll use the acronyms DPS/ic for "Damage per Second per Ideal Cooldown" and DPS/ec for "Damage per Second per Effective Cooldown". Ideal is the base cooldown of the ability, effective is what you get in practice, naturally.

Bonk and Bash have a DPS/ic of 333 each, while Crush has a DPS/ic of 200.

The issue again comes to your DPS/ec. Even though Crush's DPS/ic is lower than that of both Bonk and Bash, extending the eCD of Bonk to 3.5 seconds was still worth the loss in that ability's DPS. With a 3.5 second eCD Bonk's DPS is reduced by roughly 14.3% to ~285, but you gain the 190 DPS from Crush, easily balancing out the loss. That is why it works out better to extend the eCD on Bonk, because the gain from using Crush outweighs the loss from Bonk - not any convoluted GCD lock mechanics.

I'll go ahead and quote myself:
Judgement can be higher prioritized than CS easily. It all comes down to whether the DPS/ec of Judgement is more than the loss of the DPS/ec from pushing back CS. It is entirely possible this could be the case in 3.2 given Judgement's damage. Further testing will be required.

I would agree with the above, confirmed by my own testing which I though I would share here.

I did some testing by simulating raid buffed mana stats. I have an offspec holy gear set. I subbed out some pieces of gear - making sure not to pick up any MP5, while still maintaining hit+expertise caps (as to not miss any JoW procs). Since the holy gear has Int. on it - I got my mana to 7883, which is within about 50 mana of what I have fully raid buffed. I used untalented Blessing of Wisdom on myself, and judged wisdom, which would be the mana regen buffs you would have in a raid.

In my testing on a dummy I was using a CS>J>DS>CONS>EXO rotation, working in divine plea on cooldown. After 8 minutes, I had ~56% of my mana left. Glyphs used were Consecration, Judgement, Exorcosm.

I'm not at all worried about mana regen in a 25 man raid. In a 10 man raid where you may be missing buffs, I woudl suspect mana to be a probable concern.

Correct, most Ferals/Warriors do not spec imp Demo Shout and since Vindication is equal to fully talented version, it adds a lot of utility.

Worrying too much about 3.2 Priorities is a little premature. 3.2 is likely will come out in September, so there may be more Paladins changes coming in the coming months on the PTR.

Protection Paladins pick so many DPS/threat talents these days because there's a deficit of mitigation oriented talents. The excess threat we produce isn't doing a whole lot of good beyond giving us some extra padding to use our band aid cooldown (Salvation). I for one will have no qualms about dropping 2% crit for the ability to lower the boss's DPS by ~15%.

For fights such as Iron Council, it's quite useful to have multiple people (especially the tank who's holding a mob) who can put up a Demoralizing Shout equivalent. Remember, 3.2 has already hinted at not one, but TWO Jormungars (!).

If we don't start off right next to whatever we're fighting, why would we not start with Exorcism? It has a longer range, so can be cast sooner, and as we'll get the mana back from the Judgement that follows it's essentially a clearcast.

I assume you want to move to whatever you're attacking, with the new cast time on Exorcism, you're essentially delaying your time before you're next to the target by 1.5 seconds. Exception would be if the mob is being pulled towards your position I suppose.

Did a Naxx25 run last night on the PTR. Was in full Conq gear, T1 Furious Wep and libram, and bout half BIS offset items. Noticed that Judge of Veng was hitting very hard. Crits were regularly in the 10k-15k range. Was going to post a WWS parse of it but somehow the combat log got corrupt and is unusable now. I used the FCFS rotation, with CS at the top then Judge and DS. Mana really wasn't an issue although I will say it did feel like i wasn't using consecrate as often as I do on live. This might be to explain my lack of mana issues.

Sorry - don't really read EJ on weekends (too busy raiding, mostly read at work).

All numbers are Patchwerk-style-maximums in my current gear with raid buffs per spreadsheet modeling:
- (live) CS(6s) + (old)SoB = 5777
- (ptr) CS(4s) + (new)SoV = 6150
- (theory) CS(6s) + (new)SoV = 5779
- (theory) CS(6s) + (new)SoV + Exo(6s) = 6647

On the last I actually roughed Exo in as 7 seconds, not 6, to account for some cooldown clashes, etc. CS is roughed at 4.5 sec. I have yet to run python scripts to get true no-lag effective cooldowns. These numbers are probably plus or minus 100 DPS. If/when Endo replies expect more accurate information (since Rawr internally calculates effective cooldowns).

So faster CS is indeed a DPS buff. However, I have assumed we have not reduced Consecration up-time and still spam literally everything on CD. If we have to reduce Cons due to a mana issue, it could be quite detrimental.

A CD reset on Exo would be a huge DPS boost. I really do not see this happening. It'd also cause GJ (Global Cooldown Jam) per Redcape's explanations and as you can see from Chicken's rough-up - free GCD are few and far between. Using Divine Plea is a DPS "loss" - although not, since we'll go OOM without it which would be far worse.

Personally - haven't tested on PTR, but I'm unhappy. It's more spammage, not less. The only thought is up-front. We'll theorycraft once, get best priorities, sit until a future patch change. AoW resetting Exo would only change our initial priority setup, raiding would still be whack-a-mole. Looking forward eagerly to whatever Blizzard changes next to see if it will be less spam-buttons-on-cooldown and more requiring player consideration.

I have a question for those on PTR. Can you drum up at least two paladins and both Judge Light then both Judge Wisdom off and on for a while. Do they:
A) always stack?
B) never stack?
C) occasionally stack?

Want to compare/contrast. Multi-JoW or JoL procs could still be useful. Likely best to test on something like a Blasted Lands mob - the Dummies appear to give unusual results based on what everyone says on live.

I can check these with Endoscient tonight if no one does before then.

Along these lines, I also wanted to bring up the topic of judging in 3.2. It's accepted practice on live to have the ret paladin judge light, and the holy/prot to deal with wisdom. With the nerf/change to JoL in 3.2, I've been thinking it would be more beneficial for us to go back to JoW, and let the healer types decide if JoL is appropriate for the given fight. This ensures 100% uptime for DPSers who have potential mana issues (hunters and us, primarily) and properly seperates healing and utility between the specs. The only real downside is not being able to top two meters at once!

It would probably be most dependent on your raid setup and the prevalence of AoE damage in CC (HELLO Ulduar), however I would agree with Zurm on keeping up JoW. I normally raid with anywhere from 1 to 4 other paladins (one prot, 2 holy, one ret), but only 2 of them are truly consistent enough to count upon for daily raiding (prot and holy). On nights where the prot pally isn't there, a boss will only have JoL up 100% due to how much healing it triggers, despite any potential mana issues on my own part- just pop a potion and it's more than enough to last the rest of the fight.

However, due to the change to JoL on the PTR, it will be healing for less than half what it currently heals for when cast by a geared ret, assuming a 28k health raid buffed attacker (which only one or two of my melee have hit due to lack thus far of 25 hard mode gear). Based on my own personal observations in the raids I lead and the changes to replenishment on the PTR, it would probably be more beneficial to maintain JoW on the boss rather than JoL. Obviously on AoE heavy fights like Mimiron P2/P4 and on oddball fights like Vezax, it would be better to keep light up to help with the healing load a bit, but JoL will most likely be taking a secondary priority for judgement buffs.

Again, all of this comes from my own raid leading experience, personal results may vary, and as always the PTR is subject to change. Above and beyond though at this time on the PTR the only distinction between who should be casting JoL when 100% uptime of two judgements is possible would be whoever has the most ranks in Divinity.

Only the healing received part of the Divinity talent is applying to Judgement of Light on the PTR. Not the healing done part, so how much Divinity you have specced only affects the healing on yourself, not the healing on others.

Good to know if this turns out to be the case when 3.2 launches, as it will further devalue Divinity. I'll test it when I get back on the PTR later just to be certain, and it would probably help if at least a few others could verify this as well, because thus far none of the builds I've tested have included Divinity.

CS is going to have its cost fixed soon™.

World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> Crusader Strike is faster, same mana cost

Some upcoming help with mana issues on the PTR:

WoW Forums thread- Crusader Strike is faster, same mana cost:

EDIT: Couple seconds too slow.

There is a mana cost issue if you aren't running around with a bunch of regen buffs. This is readily apparent if you even spend a couple minutes trying to PvP on the PTR, and I'm glad they're addressing it.

PTR Patch Notes have been updated on the PTR Forum. It seems Judgement will continue to proc AoW as per the 1st point, and CS is going to be cheaper than it currently is (in a relative sense), and even more so when cast at an effective 4.5 seconds.

World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> PTR Patch 3.2.0 Notes

Also, a bit of a change here.

Taken from the new changes in the latest PTR build:

What was the previous math behind the Judgement prior to this update? This has to be a buff by the look of things.

Also it looks as if CS cost went down to 5% from 8%. We'll see if that 3% allows for consecrate to remain steady in the rotation and keep mana going.

From a few posts back, think that is what was agreed upon to be the Judgement coeff.

Looking forward to the mana changes, the 8% on the new CS was a bit too much by all accounts.

As far as I know, there wasn't a 10% damage increase after each stack of Bloodcorruption.

According to wowhead the live version looks like this:
So it seems as if the seal on PTR is equal to the seal on Live they just changed the wording from Holy vengeance to Blood Corruption, or did I miss something?