Woot, that was approximately what I figured it would get changed to, my feedback was to lower the mana cost by an approximate level as the ability got nerfed to, I'm sure other rets here feedbacked something similar.
And yeah, not so see if the 3% allows for constant conscecration, I suspect it will, testing I did on live and ptr for about 40 min (refreshing seal/might) when down, crusader was eating a ton of mana, if mashed as soon as it came off cooldown.
What is the math on that btw, what approximately is 3% of our base mana? And would you figure it at 3% mana saved every 4 seconds?
So it seems as if the seal on PTR is equal to the seal on Live they just changed the wording from Holy vengeance to Blood Corruption, or did I miss something?
Holy Vengeance is for Seal of Vengeance. Blood Corruption is for Seal of Corruption.
the 3.2 notes from last week say that the AP/SP coefficients were 13/6.5 respectively. I think wowhead just updated very fast?
The note today specifically cited the Judgement. You are referring to the Seal portion.
Seal of Vengeance now deals [ 13% of AP + 6.5% of Spell Power ] Holy damage (down from [ 15% of AP + 7.8% of Spell Power ]) and has a new effect - Once stacked to 5 times, each of the Paladin's attacks also deals 33% weapon damage as additional Holy damage.
Ghostcrawler: If there is a spec we want to avoid over-buffing so that we don't have to nerf them, it's Ret.
If the change allerya quoted above is right then I would expect us to lose another 83 dps. This would put us at almost exactly the same dps as current without SotP, and about 200 above current with SotP fully talented. The net effect would be our burst would be neutered and we can either have slightly improved sustained dps or our utility from the prot tree.
That assumes my effective cooldowns are right, of course.
5 minuts ago i was on the ptr - maybe it just was buggy by me but my darkmoon card was permanent up it refreshed it nearly at every hit can someone else proof it?
edit: the art of war did not procc
I noticed the same. I decided to stay at range and just judge the boss target dummy at Silvermoon. The card effect would proc every now and then off the DoT component of my Seal of Corruption:
Also, AoW didn't proc at all during all my testing either (10 minutes long).
Last edited by narshanna : 06/29/09 at 10:53 PM.
Reason: typos
If the change allerya quoted above is right then I would expect us to lose another 83 dps. This would put us at almost exactly the same dps as current without SotP, and about 200 above current with SotP fully talented. The net effect would be our burst would be neutered and we can either have slightly improved sustained dps or our utility from the prot tree.
That assumes my effective cooldowns are right, of course.
The downgraded seal damage was live on the PTR's straight off the bat if I got it right. Was in the first set of published PTR notes.
EDIT: As noted above; Art of War is completely broken on the current PTR build. Does not proc off *anything*
EDIT2: Confirmed that Greatness bug as well, has a 100% uptime at the moment, this with the AoW bug makes testing kinda fruitless at the moment.
I did some testing earlier to check if Divinity increased the healing JoL does to other players on the PTR, and it doesn't. Tested every other healing spell on both myself and my friend with and without Divinity, and only JoL healing to other players didn't seem to scale with it.
Don't remember anything specifically about the proc rates of either Greatness or AoW, I'll check again in a few minutes.
*EDIT* The internal CD on Greatness definitely seems to be bugged, as does AoW, because Greatness never fell off after about 4 minutes of straight attacking and I never got a single AoW proc. Bugged atm, will likely be fixed soon, but something to keep in mind when testing anything for DPS purposes.
A big YAY for the reduced cost of CS. Now to just hope they retune it to 3 or 4.5s CD
Why would you want them to increase the cooldown from 4 to 4.5 seconds, when it is effectively a 4.5s cd on PTR now anyway, but you have the freedom and option to use it that much earlier. Nothing magical happens just by switching CS to a multiple of GCDs, you'd have to swap every single ability onto that.
Formally Xyrm/Zurm, the Ret Pally. Now playing my rogue, Zyrm, more casually with RL friends.
If Greatness is not showing an ICD on the PTR then I suspect one of two things:
1. ICD are disabled on PTR to prevent 100% accuracy of testing. The new libram (200 Str) being 100% proc, the DK sigil being the same lead me to think this is the most likely event.
2. ICD are being removed (?!?) on relics and trinkets and Blizzard will allow them to chain-proc. I.e. PTR is "working as intended." Highly unlikely.
Anyone notice the melee trinket was buffed to 510 STR when procced? I'm guessing no passive stat and this is to try to make it worth more than Greatness (90 passive, +300 when procced previously pulled ahead due to passive).
CS mana reduction is probably a godsend for PvP, I can only imagine how bad mana was there (especially against absorbing targets). In a raid buffed situation with guesstimated effective cooldowns on everything, you're about the same as live. Losing DivGuard for SotP does crimp mana a bit due to 30 sec SS rather than 60 sec.
SoV DoT going to physical damage rather than Holy drops DPS a tiny shade. Armor Mitigation is greater than Partial Resists and Blood Frenzy/Savage Combat are +4% compared to the +13% of CoE and equivalents.
As Redcape says, still a couple hundred DPS boost vs Single Target in raid. Heavy reduction of PvP burst (Neuter does sound like a valid word) and BC-Rogue level trash damage. Might as well auto-follow on trash or Consecrate and alt-tab for 10 seconds.
Not seeing a change to coefficients of Seal or Judgement of Vengeance - both are what had earlier been determined. Actually, I have 12.5% of AP for SoV DoT from a previous blue/patch note, it's possible the 13% on Wowhead is rounding.
Beyond making our combat require thought, the first tweak I'd suggest is tweak the 4 target limit to Divine Storm. Cap the healing to first four targets, but allow the attack to hit everything in range. Adds very minor trash utility since we won't have SoB procs on the 4 current attacks and a single DoT isn't very strong.
Rock: "We're sub-standard DPS. Nerf Paper, Scissors are fine."
Paper: "OMG, WTF, Scissors!"
Scissors: "Rock is OP and Paper are QQers. We need PvP buffs."
SoV DoT going to physical damage rather than Holy drops DPS a tiny shade. Armor Mitigation is greater than Partial Resists and Blood Frenzy/Savage Combat are +4% compared to the +13% of CoE and equivalents.
Perhaps one of us misread, but what I took from that comment was that the application of the DOT is a melee strike (which we had already determined earlier in the thread when discussing SoV mechanics), and the DOT itself remains unchanged. I could be wrong, though.
Here's the relevant quote from the most recent patch notes:
Seal of Vengeance and Seal of Corruption: These seals have been redesigned to deal substantially more damage. Now, once a paladin has 5 copies of the debuff from these seals on his or her target, on each swing the paladin will deal 33% weapon damage as Holy, with critical strikes dealing double damage. In addition, the damage-over-time effect is now considered a melee attack instead of a spell attack. (Source)
It doesn't say physical damage anywhere, and we already knew that the application was based on melee attack stats, not spell.
Formally Xyrm/Zurm, the Ret Pally. Now playing my rogue, Zyrm, more casually with RL friends.
Perhaps one of us misread, but what I took from that comment was that the application of the DOT is a melee strike (which we had already determined earlier in the thread when discussing SoV mechanics), and the DOT itself remains unchanged. I could be wrong, though.
Unless I'm mistaken, having the dot itself being physical instead of magical wouldn't change the base damage it does, since physical dots are not affected by the armor. In fact, "physical dots" are called bleed effect (Bleed - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft).
One would assume that, should SoV dots turn physical, they would use the same mechanic, although we can't guarantee it.
In this light, the dps difference would become +4% for bleeding versus +13% -Resist for magical. Magical damage would still win from a few percents, but I'd say it wouldn't be much noticeable in the scope of the whole 3.2 change.
If Greatness is not showing an ICD on the PTR then I suspect one of two things:
1. ICD are disabled on PTR to prevent 100% accuracy of testing. The new libram (200 Str) being 100% proc, the DK sigil being the same lead me to think this is the most likely event.
2. ICD are being removed (?!?) on relics and trinkets and Blizzard will allow them to chain-proc. I.e. PTR is "working as intended." Highly unlikely.
3. ICD mechanics are being changed across the board, possibly in an effort to make them more transparent and user-visible (maybe attaching a debuff to them, to show how long until they can proc again, similar to the new AD).
Given how obtuse and player-unfriendly they are (mostly unstated, no way of tracking them without third-party addons), and how essential they are for a number of classes/specs, i can see them wanting to make them user-visible in some way (they've stated in the past that they're not happy with how balance druids are pretty much dependant on proc-watching addons to get full use out of Eclipse, for example).
Your 1. strikes me as highly unlikely. Why would they deliberately sabotage testing on their own PTR? That would just make their lives more difficult.
The current state of the PTRs Ive been on (Brill, Fordring) was that no procs were working at all. Not AoW, not Maelstrom weapon. So I'd say the realms are generally bugged - lets hope for propers after maintenance.
I'm pretty sure Blizzard just means when applying SoV it's considered "melee" so it will use the melee hit table to apply rather than the spell hit table, I don't think anything else has changed, if it was changed to a "physical dot" aka a bleed it'd probably end up being a buff due to trauma/mangle increasing it's damage by 30%, but I can almost guarantee it hasn't changed it physical damage, it just simply meant the application regarding hit types
It doesn't say physical damage anywhere, and we already knew that the application was based on melee attack stats, not spell.
Indeed, I think I misread and probably misinterpreted. Next time someone's on the new PTR release, just check if partial resist is present. If so we know I'm off base. Thanks!
Rock: "We're sub-standard DPS. Nerf Paper, Scissors are fine."
Paper: "OMG, WTF, Scissors!"
Scissors: "Rock is OP and Paper are QQers. We need PvP buffs."
Indeed, I think I misread and probably misinterpreted. Next time someone's on the new PTR release, just check if partial resist is present. If so we know I'm off base. Thanks!
You can see the partial resists for the Blood Corruption (DoT component of the horde version of SoV) in my screenshoot some posts above (here), unless you mean something else and I misreaded your post, that is That's from my testing yesterday night with the new PTR build.
Last edited by narshanna : 06/30/09 at 11:54 AM.
Reason: broken link
All sources of elemental damage (strike or not, you can look at a DK's scourge strike as an example) fall under the effects of partial resists... its the equivalent to glancing blows for them. And again, I believe the APPLICATION of the DOT is a strike, but the DOT itself behaves as any other DOT in the game would.
Formally Xyrm/Zurm, the Ret Pally. Now playing my rogue, Zyrm, more casually with RL friends.
Why would you want them to increase the cooldown from 4 to 4.5 seconds, when it is effectively a 4.5s cd on PTR now anyway, but you have the freedom and option to use it that much earlier. Nothing magical happens just by switching CS to a multiple of GCDs, you'd have to swap every single ability onto that.
I don't want them to just plain increase the cooldown, but rather retune it by increasing the damage from it accordingly to be balanced around a 4.5s cooldown instead, since that is what the actual cooldown will be in most cases anyways.
Beyond making our combat require thought, the first tweak I'd suggest is tweak the 4 target limit to Divine Storm. Cap the healing to first four targets, but allow the attack to hit everything in range. Adds very minor trash utility since we won't have SoB procs on the 4 current attacks and a single DoT isn't very strong.
Or we could simply use SoC instead of SoV? "SoV weak on short trash fights" is pretty poor justification for "buff Ret trash DPS".
It'd buff DPS for other scenarios, and get warriors to complain about Whirlwind vs. DS. In short, more trouble for a tiny problem (if it really qualifies as a problem).
Originally Posted by Appleheart
I don't want them to just plain increase the cooldown, but rather retune it by increasing the damage from it accordingly to be balanced around a 4.5s cooldown instead, since that is what the actual cooldown will be in most cases anyways.
But do you want them to actually make it a 4.5 second CD? The "lost damage" from actual vs. effective CD can already be accounted for by other abilities (SoV/JoV).
I'm pretty sure Blizzard just means when applying SoV it's considered "melee" so it will use the melee hit table to apply rather than the spell hit table, I don't think anything else has changed, if it was changed to a "physical dot" aka a bleed it'd probably end up being a buff due to trauma/mangle increasing it's damage by 30%, but I can almost guarantee it hasn't changed it physical damage, it just simply meant the application regarding hit types
I can in fact guarantee that it HASN'T changed to physical damage. I'm protection specced, and on the PTR, with Righteous Fury up, the SoV DoT is generating 2.717 threat per 1 point of damage dealt, which means it's affected by Righteous Fury, which means it's not physical.
What HAS changed is the SoV on-swing damage at 5-stacks. Instead of hitting for 5 damage, it now hits for about 144 for me with my Last Laugh. This damage is also still holy. What else has changed is that the chance for the reapplication of the DoT is now based on your melee hit instead of your spell hit (meaning Misery no longer affects it), and it now applies based on melee hit table, but cannot be dodged or parried (same as judgement). In other words, against a boss before, if you had 0 hit rating, you'd have a 17% chance to miss with SoV DoT applications. Now, it's only 8%.
Or we could simply use SoC instead of SoV? "SoV weak on short trash fights" is pretty poor justification for "buff Ret trash DPS".
That's only if they remove the small internal cooldown on SoC, cause atm I don't think it can proc from more than one hit of DS so it still wouldn't really help. Especially if you consider the judgement damage is so much lower.
That's only if they remove the small internal cooldown on SoC, cause atm I don't think it can proc from more than one hit of DS so it still wouldn't really help. Especially if you consider the judgement damage is so much lower.
Ugh. I welcome a nerf to our AoE. I am last place DPS in my guild by far (everyone is in ulduar gear while I just joined and only have naxx gear, along with being Ret) and on trash I can break top 5... and thats with me having to slow down so I don't pull aggro and get killed.
Regarding the appallingly low joc damage: Since joc is the only one that procs a seal, is it safe to roll the two damage packets together when talking about judgement damage and burst? In terms of pvp timing, does the seal proc hit before or after the judgement, for better or worse shield piercing? Does soc have any range limitations? I read here that it doesn't have any facing issues, but can you be out of melee range and in judgement range, and still get the extra proc when casting judgement?
06/29/09, 7:19 PM
That's from my testing yesterday night with the new PTR build.
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