Crovax

Just did some ptr tests with the following results (May have been cleared before).

Judgement of Corruption:
- Cannot be dodged (53 judgements, 0 dodges. 0 Expertise, target lvl 83), can resist
- Triggers a Seal of Corruption proc at x5 stacks (most likely the 33% extra damage), can resist
- Applies Blood Corruption
- Blood Corruption (Dot application) can be dodged, can resist

Blood Corruption:
- Doesn't reset tickperiod on application, as said above it can be dodged on its application (Tested with Judgemed so far).

Art of War:
- Still broken :[

 

PapaSol

I just did a little bit of testing on the PTR and noticed the following:

1. With the latest change to judgements (being clarified as a melee attack) This has 2 new effects with Seal of Corruption/Vegence.
A. Judgement contributes in stacking the DoT effect. Easily tested by judging from max range and seeing the DoT appear.
B. Judgement now triggers the 33% weapon damage effect when at 5 stacks. I tested this by ramping up 5 stacks of the DoT then turning away from the dummy but remained in melee range and then applied my judgement.

2. Seal of Command appears to be completely broken. I see absolutely no Seal of Command procs when simply meleeing the target dummy.

EDIT:
Statement B. Above is not limited by range. You can test this by standing at Judgement range from your target dummy after getting 5 stacks (which you can do with judgement itself now because of Statement A) You will proc 33% weapon damage in addition to judgement damage and dot ticks.

 

Fiola

SoC procs off every attack in 3.2, so the internal CD is already gone ... (at least, that's how it's supposed to be. SoC currently doesn't proc on the PTR)


SoR and SoV both proc off judgements on the PTR, so SoC doesn't have that advantage anymore. However, the proc system seems bugged. Vengeance, AoW, Seal procs (SoW/SoL/SoJ) aren't working correctly.

We probably won't know how useful/useless SoC for a few more weeks.

 

Lesrek

If that stays the case and goes live, Judgement will be back to number 1 on the priority list by a large margain.

 

Ploorvan

SoC also maintain's the 5 yard "limit" on it for proccing, Judging at 10 yards will yield no proc for SoC unlike SoV

 

krodor

Will that affect either seal on Divine Storm, since its range is 8 yards? Did it work that way with sob?

 

HamSlammer

Don't suppose you tested the bolded portion against a shielded target? I assume it still does, but it could fall under a JotW-type mechanic.

EDIT - appears the issues w/ Command not dealing damage and AoW not proc'ing have been fixed.
EDIT2 - Vengeance/Corruption still "throws" it's direct damage to whatever your main target is. This'll be interesting w/ Hammer of the Righteous.

 

Rammurg

Crusader Strike certainly needs something added to it now, even talented it deals less damage than our auto-attack. Every single strike ability that I know of with less than auto-attack damage, has an additional functionality to it (see Plague Strike for example). It's just no longer a fun button to push, and the new cooldown makes our cooldown clash issues even worse.

Then I stumbled upon this post: World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> Crusader Strike: Vast Remake
Got to say I love the idea of CS fueling another resource system, the 4sec cooldown gives quite a nice pace for that - 3sec wouldn't be bad either, with reduced damage obviously. A combo point -like resource system would also potentially give us choice for different situations, which is what we severely lack in PvP. As we've seen Mana is quite a tricky resource to balance for use of a Melee spec, Giving us another resource to manage should make things a lot more interesting for us than just smashing cooldowns, and perhaps also easier to balance.

 

Prinsesa

They probably took a Steady Shot approach to Crusader Strike, in that it's the worst button to press, because it's the button you can always press.

"We do want Sanctuary to be the tanking seal"

- Ghostcrawler

 

Thunderchylde

At work, so I can't test for myself (not that I think that the PTR is healthy enough for testing much anyways).

I remember someone earlier stating that SotP wasn't increasing the 33% SoV dmg - can anyone confirm/deny if this is still the case (or ever was)?

i.e.

5/5 SotP gives:

+15% on the SoV dot - yes
+15% on judging SoV - yes
+0% or +15% on the 33% wpn dmg at 5 stacks - ???

 

Crovax

I tested with a blacksmith hammer and 560 base ap.

SotP increases Blood Corruption and Judgement of Corruption damage.
Seal of Corruption (x5 Stack Proc) does not get the 15% increase from SotP.

 

Aranoa

Hm can anyone give me the accurate formula for judgement damage, please?
(1+0,22*SP+0,14*AP)*AoW*Crusade*Vengeance*Glyph*SotP*1.Stacks never gave me the right results.

There is something other I found out earlier today, it seems Heart of the Crusader is bugged, instead of giving the 3% critical chance, it increases your overall damage by 3%. Tested it with Holy Vengeance dot and Judgement of Vengeance. Should be considered when you are doing tests.

 

• Zurm

This is a behavior Endoscient and myself noticed... one that occurs ONLY on target dummies.

Again, please avoid using target dummies for tests unless it is to test proc chances. The damage on dummies is all wrong, there are so many exceptions and wierd behaviors you basically nullify your own tests by using them. Every PTR we have a new wave of willing testers who make the same fatal mistake.

Do *NOT* use target dummies to test damage coefficients, especially small ones. Use them for procs and miss/dodge mechanics only.

Also, for the purposes of most damage tests, it's probably best to avoid mobs that are affected by crusade (especially undead/demons, due to glyph of sense UD and guaranteed crit on exo).

 

Harmann

I know this isn't exactly on topic, but I'm talking to some guildies and am curious...

My main is a Holy Paladin with Haste + JotP lowering my GCD to close to 1s. Does haste still lower the GCD on the Retribution spells or has Blizzard set things up so that only specific spells' and abilities' GCDs can be lowered down from 1.5s?

 

• Zurm

Haste lowers the GCD on Exorcism and Consecrate... and that's it. It works on all SPELLS, but not on strikes.

 

Angel of Wrath

I just did a litte testing to confirm the "seal proc on Judgements" thing - could it be that it's not a bug and actually working as intended? The proc systems seems to be fixed now, at least I didn't observe anything that worked strangely.

Assuming it isn't a bug and Blizzard is not going to nerf it due to PvP burst complaiments, how much of an DPS increase would this change be? It seems to be a rather big one.

 

Exemplar

It makes sense. Blizzard is officially ruling Judgement a melee strike. SoB specifically stated "All melee" and SoV states "cause attacks" to stack the debuff and "each of a paladin's attacks" to proc. Judgement is now considered an attack for these purposes based on their new definition - it's not a spell, it's not ranged, it's melee.

SoB did not proc in the past as Judgement was ruled a ranged attack. SoC didn't have wiggle words (or had a broader wiggle) in that it stated "Gives the paladin a chance" to proc. Nothing about melee or strikes. Therefore there was no discrepancy between their definition and it being the only Judgement which could proc its own seal.

I suspect JoV proccing SoV will go live.

To answer the second question:
In my gear around 7ish Judge per minute for 1-2k proc per. Say 10k a minute or 175 DPS. Give or take based on gear.

I wouldn't anticipate a nerf for PvP burst based on this. Burst is still rather low. If DPS is nerfed it is more likely to be for PvE reasons - whether they intend to buff Ret at all, much less as significantly as numbercrunching and testing seems to show is currently unknown. If/when nerfs occur I'd expect some coefficient tweaks rather than mechanical changes.

Rock: "We're sub-standard DPS. Nerf Paper, Scissors are fine."
Paper: "OMG, WTF, Scissors!"
Scissors: "Rock is OP and Paper are QQers. We need PvP buffs."

 

Redcape

I worked the new JoV triggering the 33% SoV into my spreadsheet. It indicates that our dps goes up from live by 220 sustained with 0/5 jotp and increases by a total of 400 from live with 5/5 sotp. Our ramp up time is also going to decrease, if we are hit and expertise capped we should be fully ramped up within 3 seconds of engage, which means we miss out on 5 procs of SoB compared to the current model but gain 400 dps ongoing.

Average SoB proc now is 2200, so we trade in 11k damage for 400/sec, putting us equal on total damage dealt 28 seconds into the fight. We do lose out when we have to restack the dot on breaking away from the boss, but the dot does continue to tick when we break away, which sometimes means we get 10 seconds of free dot damage at 500 dps, and sometimes means we get 15 seconds of dot damage and have to restack.

What this means is that on fights where we break away from the boss and come back we are probably about the same as before. On fights where we continuously swap targets we are really a lot worse. So Freya is going to be a lot worse for us (though right now I feel heinously overpowered on that fight) but hodir should be a lot better since our short breaks to bust icecubes / dodge icicles are no problem.

Without the points in holy things get worse, and the results will also depend on whether or not the SoV glyph stays.

 

• Zurm

One thing for others to note is that DPS values are highly dependent on gear every time we see a talent/mechanic change. Ermad said rawr put me at a 500 dps with my current gear on live, so keep things in perspective!

Either way, this makes me feel a lot better about our situation in 3.2 for PvE.

 

Ploorvan

On live SoC procs retain this same limit, stand 8 yards from a target dummy with SoC up and hit it, you'll get an "out of range" error because SoC is trying to proc but can't

So yes, the 5 yard limit applies to Divine Storm also

 

Angel of Wrath

Things are getting more and more strange with our new SoV: I used a premade Paladin to test how the 2-set bonus of the Prot T8 affects SoV:

Unlike Seals of the Pure, it increases all damage of SoV, including the 33% proc (even the tooltip gets updated to 36 to 37%). Looks like SotP is really bugged (or the tooltip is completely outdated).

 

HamSlammer

I imagine Seals of the Pure just has an outdated/sloppy coding.

The talent existed in vanilla and TBC as just Improved Seal of Righteousness, with it's coding being something like %mod to Seal, %mod to Judgement. In the middle of Burning Crusade, they slapped on the direct damage component (Patch 2.2). Then, in 3.0, they changed Imp SoR to Seals of the Pure, where they probably modified only Judgement of Vengeance/Corruption and Holy Vengeance/Blood Corruption portion of the Seal, seeing as a 15% change to the direct damage wouldn't, seemingly, go unnoticed.

It apparently did, until now.

 

Charmin

delete

 

Corruo

The libram in question appeared to have around a

50% proc chance (50% chance not to proc):
.5^5 = 3.125% chance of consecutive non-procs (96.875% uptime)
(formatted for easy comparison)

This information was as of Monday when the items were still available though gold. The chance will likely be reduced before release as 97% uptime is rather high.

Interestingly enough, I came upon the same rotation with the [CS > J > DS > Cons > Exo] priority. I however did not have the Glyph of Consecration as above confirming the direct 25% damage increase it would have. With the frequent down times as we wait for cooldowns, there is ample time for Divine Plea and other utility spells without interrupting the rotation. Using T7 gear and Ulduar-10 quality non-set epics and no buffs, I was sustaining roughly 2400 DPS.

I switched up the priority to be [J > CS > DS > Cons > Exo] as stated above. Using T7 gear and Ulduar-10 quality non-set epics and no buffs, I sustained 2500 DPS.
Just for fun, I also tested out a [J > DS > CS > Cons > Exo] in the same gear and no buffs and sustained 2350 DPS.
These numbers are embarrassingly low but for the sake of comparison, here they are. I would imagine at higher gear levels, the results would be roughly the same damage ratios. All tests were conducted on the Heroic Training Dummy and lasted for approximately 2 minutes.

Overall, I feel the changes being made to Paladins will not change the way the class is played too much. Seal of Corruption allows for significant damage output to be retained though making it more difficult on non-stationary targets like players. I find it rather simple to tear through melee classes as before because they must maintain close range but more of a pain to take down ranged classes.

 

Exemplar

What frequent down time is this? On live I have some down time, but I wouldn't call it frequent. It's enough for With CS down to 4 seconds everything I'm seeing makes down time a slim and precious commodity. This makes even less sense if you didn't have Consecration Glyph and had to re-Cons every 8 seconds instead of 10.

Are there nice break points every few attacks where everything is on cooldown on a regular basis? Is 4 second CS somehow making priority-button-mashing a cleaner more regular process (almost a rotation)?

Rock: "We're sub-standard DPS. Nerf Paper, Scissors are fine."
Paper: "OMG, WTF, Scissors!"
Scissors: "Rock is OP and Paper are QQers. We need PvP buffs."