Babathong

I was curious if someone would be kind enough to post a list of all actions/abilities that actually do reset the swing timer.

 

RemyG

Has anyone been able to confirm that SoV doesnt proc from Judgements?
Or was that just an error?
I'm at work or i'd check myself.

 

• Arikah

You can't push parries off the attack table because the rating needed on gear does not exist... even using the sov glyph you'd need like 450 rating? And since gemming for expertise is advised against, then well, you see where this leads.

baba: If you are doing it right, then none of the abilities used as ret will reset the swing timer. Only if you are doing it wrong (hardcasting exo or flash, casting hl ect) will you get a timer reset penalty.

 

Maylander

Excellent work. Just a small thing I want to add: Might want to mention the FCFS rotation helper from this very forum - it really is an excellent mod that helps even the most experienced Retribution Paladin sort his CDs. It basically means that you can spend a lot more time observing the fight instead of watching the CDs (just place the helper near the middle of the screen, and spam the hotkeys it announces).

"If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles.
If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat.
If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle." - Sun Tzu, Art of War

 

Babathong

Ya, I had been trying to tell a few fellow rets that was the case, just wanted some clarification though. Also, thank you for all the time and effort you have put into the new 3.2 thread.

 

tarja

Well you certain *can* push parries off the attack table, although obviously it would be stupid for a melee DPS to have that much expertise (may not be true for a non-Paladin tank? I have no idea). The wording is a little ambiguous since it sounds as if you're saying that there's some reason that Parry inherently cannot be fully removed by expertise (similar to pre-WotLK spellhit). I think any poster here would obviously know what you mean (something along the lines of "it is not feasible to remove parries..."), but then we're not the ones who would be reading the stat descriptions in order to learn new information.

 

• Zurm

It definitely procced on the last build of PTR.

 

Barraind

I did mine in notepad too, and came up with a different ability preference for the 1h side of things, to get much different numbers. Will use your calcs on the damage of each ability, as I'm basing a rotation ON those numbers.


0 - Autoattack (1), Cons (1tick)
1.0 Cons (2tick)
1.1 Autoattack (2), 1-proc (1)
1.5 JoV2 (1). 2-proc (1)
2.0 - Cons (3tick)
2.2 - Autoattack (3),2-proc (2)
3.0 - Cons (3tick), Exorcism (1) DoT tick [3] (1)
3.3 - Autoattack (4), 3-proc (1)
4.0 - Cons (4tick)
4.4 - Autoattack (5), 4-proc (1)
4.5 - SHoR (1), 5-proc (1), Swap

5 - Cons (5tick)
6 - Cons (6tick), CS (1), 5proc (1) DoT tick [5] (1)
7 - Cons (7tick)
7.19 - 2hAuto (1), 5proc (2)
7.5 - DS (1), 5proc (3)
8 - Cons (8tick)
9 - Cons (9tick), JoV5 (1), 5proc (4), DoT Tick [5] (2)
9.88 - 2hauto (2), 5proc (5)
10 - Cons (10tick)
10.5 - CS (2), 5proc (6)
12 - Cons (11 tick), DoT tick [5] (3)
12.57 - 2hauto (3), 5proc (7)
13 - Cons (12 tick)
13.5 - Plea
14 - Cons (13 tick)
15 - CS (3), 5proc (8), Cons (14tick), DoT Tick [5] (4)
15.26 - 2hauto (4). 5proc (9)


This would give:

1H
5611 - Autoattack damage
5618 - Exorcism Damage
2404 - Cons damage
4313 - JoV damage
2077 - SoV damage
1800 - SHoR damage

21822 damage

2H
14859 - SoV Proc damage
12284 - Auto Damage
9315 - CS damage
6061 - JoV damage
6010 - Cons Damage
3980 - DS Damage
2970 - SoV DoT

55479 damage

Total - 77301

Beating the 2h only by 7346 damage. (Note, SoR isnt completely accurate, as I didnt have the alg shield to test with personally but wont be off by more than 300 damage, as the numbers should work)


to be fair, I'll credit your numbers with the following (to take them to 15sec): 1h/2h setup gains:

+601 (cons)
+3980 (DS)
+1651 (1proc)

giving it: 72216 total damage (It is now 2261 damage ahead of the 2h only build)


One thing I think you didnt factor in yours is that a reset of the swing timer due to weapon swap doesnt add a global cooldown extra to the next weapon swing, and your numbers seem to assume it does. The swap DOES reset the swing timer, so swing timer reset at 4.5 means a 2h with 2.69 effective swing will swing again at 7.19 not 8.69. Testing this with no haste makes it easy to see (you'd be swinging at 5.1sec delay with an ulduar 2h after a swap, and you clearly swing in 3.6).


It IS a ([an] exceptionally small) DPS gain, assuming you have a 1h on par with the 2h you have, and that 1h is 1.4 or 1.5 speed (it can be 1.6 once you cross 43% haste, which can potentially open up doors for tank weapons at a later date).

 

Endoscient

One thing that almost all of the numbers comparing 1h stack building vs 2h forgot to mention was, that once you finished the ~15 sec of stack building there were different cooldown durations on the abilities remaining between the two. For example, say if it worked out that 1h used Judgement a right before the 15s sample period, but for 2h it was coming off CD right after the 15 seconds. Even though the numbers for 15 seconds might be in favor of 1h, they could shift to 2h if you extended the trial time to include the additional 2h Judgement.

 

TheEnder

2 Answers for ya... compiled from a few posts and parses.

1) SoC will eventually outpace SoR once you reach a certain gear level (assuming single target).

Additionally in an AOE situation; SoC has a better burst potential than SoR due to ability to crit and higher damage level. The judgement is abysmal but still procs the seal.

2) Where else to put them? In Divinity? Pull a divinity point and put it in DP? Since SoC -may- have some marginal uses it stands to reason that it'd be a better PVE choice than say, DP. I still expect bliz to make changes to SoC in the future anyways since its so damn pathetic that SoR is better. So the short answer for #2 is simply that it's a personal choice; if someone can provide a legit secondary option for that point I'd probably consider it.

 

RemyG

So... Is it still proccing? Notes said proc would exclude Judgements.

 

Shldnhearth

I think we have pretty much beaten the 1H swap topic to death, it just isn't worth it

I'm curious just how much of a dps upgrade it actually is to switch seals from SoV to SoR (or SoC for that matter) for things like Yogg Tentacles, Freya adds and the like.

For example, swapping to SoR causes those of us using the SoV glyph to lose out on 10 exp and 200 Str via Libram of Valiance (wowhead link isn't working yet...)

Not to mention the mana cost of swapping seals.

 

TheEnder

If you're not switching back and forth every 15 sec you can just drop concecration out of a rotation to build your mana back up. So the mana problem isn't that big of a problem.

The expertise question is interesting because I am already expertise capped. If I have the gear to sub out and 'drop' expertise then I would do that and use the glyph; otherwise just make sure you have expertise cap in those situations and use another glyph (or carry glyphs around if you want to min/max.)

The libram is less of an issue because you can carry the PVP libram around with you in cases where you are not using SoV. Just pop in the libram when you switch seals. (Macro them together.)

 

aleksandor

While Vindication might be of great use for a 10 man group, i personally believe it to be wasted in a 25 man run. While you won't have 2 warriors every 10 man run for commanding and demo shout, it shouldn't be too difficult to get 2 warriors per 25 man run for demo and commanding (and then leave blessing of might to cover battle).
However, for hard mode 10 man Crusader's colliseum it might be interesting to mull over.

 

• frmorrison

Ret removes 574 attack power, while a Warrior/Druid without the increasing talents (Which is normal) remove around 410. 164 AP removal is a significant damage reduction for a boss mob.

DK - Ashbane Failure is the condiment that gives success its flavor.

 

Mist

Righteous still double procs off Judgment, on my level 5 Pally. That's the highest level pally I have on any of the servers that are actually up.

 

Rasputin

I just tested on the Heroic Dummy in Silvermoon after respeccing. Judgement of Vengeance DOES NOT proc Seal of Vengeance.

 

Endoscient

That isn't correct. They remove 410 without talents, and 574 with talents. So both talented they are the same, but Ret probably gives up the least to pick up the talents/maintain debuff.

 

aleksandor

Edit: nm, above post beat me.



Either way, the choice seems to come down to whether your raid leader would like you to go with 2 points in improved might and take over the battleshout warrior's job, or 2 points in vindication and take over the demo warrior's job. As the warrior's shout is controllable and affects multiple opponents, i can't think of why one would choose vindication over improved might in a 25 man scenario (assuming 2 warriors)

 

Angel of Wrath

Do the other Seals (SoC, SoR) still proc on Judgements? (Edit: My bad, answered above - however, does SoC double-proc as well?)

This also gives us a clear priority of CS over Judgements now. Using Trajer's Patchwerk Test results

Test 1
Test 2
Test 3

it results in ~15% less seal procs or 3.3% less overall DPS. However, he prefered Judgements over CS, so the actual loss should be smaller.

I'm eager to see test results of today's Ulduar runs, especially of Ignis (which works like a poor man's Patchwerk) compared to 3.1 DPS. The Patchwerk results look only good due to its Undead status. However, fighting mobs without those boni (like Ignis), we're looking at another ~5,3% damage loss compared to this "ideal" DPS. Reports about these fights are highly welcome, especially with previous 3.1. data. It would be interesting to see our actual DPS gain (or loss, depending on the fight).

 

Babathong

My damage on live right now is quite a bit lower than what it was on the ptr. Anyone know of any reason that could be?

 

Mist

I think we just mentioned it a bunch of times. Judgment is not proccing Seal of Vengeance.

 

Angel of Wrath

Could you go a bit more into detail? How much damage did you lose? Are you talking about fully raid-buffed or even single buffed? It's hard to tell if you're just refering to the Judgement nerf or a more significant loss.

 

Babathong

I am self buffed on a dummy. I guess im just a tad depressed. My damage was roughly 600 lower than it was on 3.1 and 1000 than it was on the ptr.


I just realized that recount is all messed up and is not registering the majority of my damage. Ignore previous post.

 

Shldnhearth

Did you re-activate your meta now that Dragon's Eyes are no longer prismatic? Your armory shows that you did not.