Contrary to what people are saying about the FCFS rotation of CS > Judgement, I get higher DPS from putting Judgement ahead of CS in the priority queue (i.e. Judgement > CS). I don't have the 4p t8.5 set bonus though, but I doubt 10% crit will make up the gap. Just a quick look at RAWR shows a DPS boost by placing Judgements before CS.
The Judgement > CS rotation will probably be the better for SoR, but for SoC I'm pretty sure the standard CS > Judgement will be superior.
Contrary to what people are saying about the FCFS rotation of CS > Judgement, I get higher DPS from putting Judgement ahead of CS in the priority queue (i.e. Judgement > CS). I don't have the 4p t8.5 set bonus though, but I doubt 10% crit will make up the gap. Just a quick look at RAWR shows a DPS boost by placing Judgements before CS.
The Judgement > CS rotation will probably be the better for SoR, but for SoC I'm pretty sure the standard CS > Judgement will be superior.
I can't seem to replicate this claim in Rawr at all. I have tried using my current gear and then breaking the set bonus using comparable gear: (Ulduar 25) and CS still pulls ahead. In some instances CS is only ahead by a few DPS, but it's still a gain. Even swapping between SoR, SoC and SoV: I cannot reproduce your claim.
Could you please provide some evidence to substantiate your anecdotal claim?
EDIT: The only way I can seem to reproduce this claim is if the 4pc T7 bonus is in use.
Last edited by Alleyra : 08/11/09 at 1:55 AM.
Ghostcrawler: If there is a spec we want to avoid over-buffing so that we don't have to nerf them, it's Ret.
Do we have any further data yet if the other emblem relics possess an internal cooldown? Looking through their data on Wowhead, all of them have proc rates of 70% or 80% which would guarantee almost 100% uptime for them. Maybe they changed their design philosophy and it could be intended, considering how crappy relics were compared to stat sticks like guns before.
On a different note: I looked through various parses on wowmeteronline (ideal bosses like Ignis, XT and Vezax) and it seems that Berserk has indeed a far higher uptime than before, for whatever reasons (more CS and maybe the hidden mechanic on SoV). During 3.1, uptime ranged from ~40-55%, while now it ranges somewhere between ~65-85%.
I find this ironic because I was actually testing the uptime tonight in Uld. 25M. Granted, I only got to test 4 bosses.
But, one of them happened to be Vezax and over a 4:37 Minute fight, I had an uptime of 3:40 of Berserk. One thing I did notice, or maybe it was just my imagination, is that it would proc/refresh more often on CS/DS.
I can't seem to replicate this claim in Rawr at all. I have tried using my current gear and then breaking the set bonus using comparable gear: (Ulduar 25) and CS still pulls ahead. In some instances CS is only ahead by a few DPS, but it's still a gain. Even swapping between SoR, SoC and SoV: I cannot reproduce your claim.
Could you please provide some evidence to substantiate your anecdotal claim?
EDIT: The only way I can seem to reproduce this claim is if the 4pc T7 bonus is in use.
Actually after looking for myself, with the gear set I'm using I see a 14 dps increase from prioritising Judgement over Crusader Strike in Rawr 2.2.12 (full raid buffs, SoV, 4 piece tier 8). My gear's probably got unusually high haste and crit compared to fairly low AP (wearing a lot of mediocre Agi/haste gear), though I don't see how that would effect things.
Delay set to 0.05 seconds, and wait set to 0.00 seconds.
Prioritising Judgement over CS, effective CDs according to Rawr are as follows:
Somehow prioritising CS over Judgement leads to all my abilities having a slightly longer effective cooldown, which in turn, I think, is causing the dps drop. I'm not sure this result even makes much sense. However, I don't know how accurate Rawr's rotation simulation is - if I recall correctly it doesn't take into account haste's effect on the GCD of consecration or exorcism, so I'm not sure if it's to be fully trusted when we're talking about hundredths of seconds' difference.
Edit: original priority was HoW > CS > Judgement > DS > Consecration > Exorcism as per the OP. However, the highest dps priorities I was finding with my gear were:
HoW > CS > Judgement > DS > Consecration > Exorcism was 6,669 DPS.
I'm struggling to understand how HoW going from a 6.2s effective CD in priority 1 to a 9.27s effective CD in priority 3 is only a 10 DPS loss - of course HoW's influence is only limited to a small percentage of the fight, but still none of the other effective CDs seem to gain enough ground to explain such a small DPS loss. Quite possibly I'm just doing something wrong with Rawr.
I also cannot reproduce J > CS with rawr, so I'm unsure what the variables are that is causing this. I have uld BiS gear equipped (minus shoulders f yogg), so it makes me think that gear and the weapon in particular might be behind the difference. The tiny bit of ArP on bis gear might also cause CS to be better since judgement gains nothing from it.
My most recent Algalon kill shows a mere 0.2% difference in total damage done (J 10.2%, CS 10%), and I'm pretty sure that the extra SoV procs from CS are more than enough to overtake .2% - this might change when we have 4pc T9, who knows.
Oh and 2 other things: berserking is indeed acting like it was on the PTR, the parse above shows exactly 75% uptime, 25% more than we had for 3.1. The other thing that is bugging quite a few paladins I talk to, is the seemingly extremely random nature of JoV. Sometimes you will crit for 7k without a stack up (and with no other paladin stacks up), and then later you will crit for 7k with a full 5 stack, only to crit a moment later for upwards of 12-14k. I don't ever remember the damage range for judgements being so wide - a case of bad RNG, or have others noticed this as well?
I also cannot reproduce J > CS with rawr, so I'm unsure what the variables are that is causing this. I have uld BiS gear equipped (minus shoulders f yogg), so it makes me think that gear and the weapon in particular might be behind the difference. The tiny bit of ArP on bis gear might also cause CS to be better since judgement gains nothing from it.
My most recent Algalon kill shows a mere 0.2% difference in total damage done (J 10.2%, CS 10%), and I'm pretty sure that the extra SoV procs from CS are more than enough to overtake .2% - this might change when we have 4pc T9, who knows.
Oh and 2 other things: berserking is indeed acting like it was on the PTR, the parse above shows exactly 75% uptime, 25% more than we had for 3.1. The other thing that is bugging quite a few paladins I talk to, is the seemingly extremely random nature of JoV. Sometimes you will crit for 7k without a stack up (and with no other paladin stacks up), and then later you will crit for 7k with a full 5 stack, only to crit a moment later for upwards of 12-14k. I don't ever remember the damage range for judgements being so wide - a case of bad RNG, or have others noticed this as well?
I posted about that a bit earlier in this thread. I've also noticed enormous difference between the damage in PvE and PvP. In PvP, I have yet to get a crit above 3.3k despite using PvE gear for the tests and having a full 5-stack up, whereas in PvE my crits fluctuate wildly from 5k without any stacks at all to between 6-17k with a full 5-stack.
There seems to be something incredibly odd with the scaling mechanisms, as often a Berserker/DMC:G proc is the difference between a judgement crit for eight and fifteen thousand.
If you exclude Exorcism, there is a Hammer of Wrath rotation that is *very* close to the ideal FCFS: HoW-CS-JoL-DS-HoW-CS-Cons.
It probably wastes 1 out of every 24 seconds compared to ideal FCFS, but it's macroable, with just Exorcism to deal with.
As for the first part of the fight (no-HoW), you could consider it to be the interleaving of two sequences:
1. CS-JoL-CS
2. DS-Cons
Whenever the first sequence is on cooldown, advance the second sequence. Exorcism when both sequences are on cooldown. It reduces 4 buttons to 2, and has the advantage of separating out single-target attacks from AoE, which is useful when CC is being tossed around.
I recently managed to get called stupid by few dual wielding dk dps during heroic runs for not "Using" Seal of Blood. Apparently Seal of Corruption is what I would use if I was tanking according to a few dks I've run into whom I'm certain have yet to hear that Seal of Blood was removed. But it left me thinking. Why would they recommend Seal of Command if from what I've read up to now highly recommends Seal of Corruption as the best choice since 3.2?
Could any pally experts shed some light on this for me? Much appreciated.
I suppose in a really pure AoEing situation with mobs who die extremely fast and even being able to judge consistently is iffy, then Command would do well. Otherwise, the general rule of thumb is SoV for anything that lasts 20 seconds or more and SoR for anything that doesn't.
SoR is buffed from where it was by everyone going 5/5 SotP, so while the seal damage is still slightly lower than Command, the Judgment hits much harder than SoC's judgment, more than making up the difference.
The DKs were just ill-informed. Its hard to find a situation where SoC is optimal.
While this seal doesn't benefit from 2H spec or weapon damage increases, it does benefit from SotP, which is in all our primary pve talent builds.
That is not correct, SoR and JoR are both increased by 2 handed spec. This is fairly easy to test on live with comparing the expected damage of SoR/JoR with a 1 handed weapon equipped vs a 2 handed weapon. I don't have the numbers anymore from when I did the test, but I can do it again if anybody wants.
That is not correct, SoR and JoR are both increased by 2 handed spec. This is fairly easy to test on live with comparing the expected damage of SoR/JoR with a 1 handed weapon equipped vs a 2 handed weapon. I don't have the numbers anymore from when I did the test, but I can do it again if anybody wants.
Would you mind horribly doing a retest? The data I'm using (probably from Redcape circa Wrath beta) was that Righteousness wasn't affected by 2H Weap Spec, while Command is. This will push Righteousness further ahead of Command on paper.
Regarding rotations - I believe Endo, Redcape, Zurm, and I have all previously said: on paper another rotation may get you marginal increase in DPS. Priority to Judgement gets me about eight tenths of a percent in my spreadsheet. Easily lost in the human reaction, latency, and movement of a real fight.
Truly proving a superior priority sequence is extremely difficult - getting identical tests for a reasonable number of data points is an extreme difficult.
Honestly, I strongly suspect any "This priority got me 1% better DPS" to be indistinguishable from margin of error on any given fight. Killing a boss 5 seconds faster (or slower) can increase the % of the fight you had AW and easily swing your overall DPS by far more than 1%. Thus claiming the increase is from the priority is hard to substantiate. Blame the RNG, too. One test with chain crits and another that is crit light again skews the data.
I plan to stick to CS first on an ordinary fight. If mana is an issue you bump J to top. If it's heavy AOE you prioritize DS and Cons. Situational awareness wins.
Rock: "We're sub-standard DPS. Nerf Paper, Scissors are fine."
Paper: "OMG, WTF, Scissors!"
Scissors: "Rock is OP and Paper are QQers. We need PvP buffs."
Slightly off topic (your mention of using Judgement first if you have mana issues made me think of this, Exemplar)...
I've noticed, personally, that mana is no longer an issue in 3.2. However, I'm not sure if this is entirely because of ret changes... now that JoL was nerfed, I use only JoW (except on Vezax, of course). In addition, we now run with an extra holy paladin, so I typically have a BoW effect (which I didn't in 3.1).
How do other people feel that had a more stable buff environment?
Formally Xyrm/Zurm, the Ret Pally. Now playing my rogue, Zyrm, more casually with RL friends.
How do other people feel that had a more stable buff environment?
Well take this with a grain of salt as it is 10 man experience only (I pretty much just run 10 man content, no 25's) but mana is not an issue judging Wisdom, but I find I have fairly severe mana issues judging Light. Just really noticed it on Hodir in particular, but I did have a restoration shaman's totem most of the fight (barring running out of it's range to snap iceblocks). We wiped our first attempt just because people weren't awake and during that attempt I was flipping between SoR to smash iceblocks and SoV to keep sustained DPS on Hodir. Obviously this tanked my mana entirely too fast.
Second attempt I didn't seal-swap at all but I still ended up having to drop cons around the 3-4 minute mark (people were sucking so we lost the shaman to flash freeze, etc). I suppose it's worth mentioning I was dropping a lot of FoL and SS onto myself to help out healers during Frozen Blows so that could be a contributing factor. I also kept DP up whenever it was off cooldown as well. If I had to guess the main contributing factor to my mana negative problems was probably SS every 30s compared to 60 because of the slight talent respec. And me refusing to let it fall off because it sucks up a decent amount of damage on that fight.
Back to the topic at hand of priority and J->CS or CS->J... it was mentioned a few posts back that the damage range on SoV seems to freak out when Darkmoon Cards/Berserking/Mirror of Truth-esque trinkets were up. Is it possible that, if, and only if, these procs are up we should give priority to Judgement over CS? This might help to explain the differences in people finding in their prioritizations... additionally it is possible that somewhere in our talents and whatnot, SoV is bugged off of our AP scaling.
Also worth noting which I just realized after looking at judgement of corruption is that is scales better off of spell power... not attack power. Maybe temporary spell buffs or things like Totem of Wrath are making these significant differences in Judgement Ranges?
How do other people feel that had a more stable buff environment?
Same as Aurarius:
In 5/10man I had issues using JoL and swapped to JoW (swapped last Tuesday). Issues vanished, mana flows like water on most fights and I will often slack on DP for prolonged periods. This is without BoW or Mana totems (2nd paladin is hitting me with Kings and I Wis him, 30minGlyph Might myself - shaman aren't dropping totem because 2nd paladin hitting other classes with Imp Wis). Haven't yet run dry or needed to stop Consecration on any fight, but I am using SS significantly less (again lack of DivGuar talent). Lack of SoB recoil has less situations where you know you can proc and absorb, often SS will proc and nothing will hit to absorb. Hodir Frozen Blows is probably an ideal time to keep it active.
In 25 I could probably swap back to JoL for Divinity's uber awesome bonus (/sarcasm).
JoW procs are around twice as much regen as BoW. The difference between no JoW and one JoW is huge.
Still interested in rigorous tests of Judge stacking. Do 2 Light or Wis stack never/always/sometimes? We often have 4 paladin in a 25man, knowing 4 JoL would stack could be extremely useful in some circumstances.
Rock: "We're sub-standard DPS. Nerf Paper, Scissors are fine."
Paper: "OMG, WTF, Scissors!"
Scissors: "Rock is OP and Paper are QQers. We need PvP buffs."
Same as Aurarius:
In 5/10man I had issues using JoL and swapped to JoW (swapped last Tuesday). Issues vanished, mana flows like water on most fights and I will often slack on DP for prolonged periods. This is without BoW or Mana totems (2nd paladin is hitting me with Kings and I Wis him, 30minGlyph Might myself - shaman aren't dropping totem because 2nd paladin hitting other classes with Imp Wis). Haven't yet run dry or needed to stop Consecration on any fight, but I am using SS significantly less (again lack of DivGuar talent). Lack of SoB recoil has less situations where you know you can proc and absorb, often SS will proc and nothing will hit to absorb. Hodir Frozen Blows is probably an ideal time to keep it active.
In 25 I could probably swap back to JoL for Divinity's uber awesome bonus (/sarcasm).
JoW procs are around twice as much regen as BoW. The difference between no JoW and one JoW is huge.
Still interested in rigorous tests of Judge stacking. Do 2 Light or Wis stack never/always/sometimes? We often have 4 paladin in a 25man, knowing 4 JoL would stack could be extremely useful in some circumstances.
It's interesting that mana issues are "fixed" by just making sure Judgement of Wisdom is up the whole time. Is it possible that with the seal change (using SoV now) we're getting procs from the dot tick? I haven't played a dot class before, but I was under the assumption that JoW only proc'd from direct damage. Sounds like I assumed wrong, possibly.
Of course, that's just me... I could be wrong.
-Dennis Miller
It's interesting that mana issues are "fixed" by just making sure Judgement of Wisdom is up the whole time. Is it possible that with the seal change (using SoV now) we're getting procs from the dot tick? I haven't played a dot class before, but I was under the assumption that JoW only proc'd from direct damage. Sounds like I assumed wrong, possibly.
No, DoTs should not proc. However, JoW in my spreadsheet is worth close to 50 mana per second. Or 250MP5. That's an enormous change from a single buff.
My math is based on tests over in the JoW thread in this forum and each direct attack (white, CS, DS, Exo, Judge) can proc. In short, only Consecration cannot proc. Our "casts" are uniformly a GCD, plus we get autoattacks. Proc chance is around 37.5% (cast time or 1.5 seconds divided by 60 times 15 Proc Per Minute).
Compared to a true caster gaining JoW regen we perform significantly more attacks (GCD+auto compared to potential 2 or 3 second casts), therefore have more chances to proc. Since mana return is base mana we actually have an advantage there as well vs. most classes (Base Mana on Wowwiki).
So, yes, JoW alone is a phenomenal swing. Greater than Divine Plea on cooldown.
Rock: "We're sub-standard DPS. Nerf Paper, Scissors are fine."
Paper: "OMG, WTF, Scissors!"
Scissors: "Rock is OP and Paper are QQers. We need PvP buffs."
It's interesting that mana issues are "fixed" by just making sure Judgement of Wisdom is up the whole time. Is it possible that with the seal change (using SoV now) we're getting procs from the dot tick? I haven't played a dot class before, but I was under the assumption that JoW only proc'd from direct damage. Sounds like I assumed wrong, possibly.
I agree with Exemplar - DoTs can't proc JoW or JoL. I just tested it again to be absolutely sure - there are no additional procs from seals. Otherwise, there would be a chance to gain 2% mana two times with each seal-proccing strike which isn't the case.
We shouldn't forget that the new, faster CS allows more procs compared to Consecration which is used less now. Less Consecration for the far cheaper CS also helps to save mana.
I have been writing a program in java to calculate damage per ability as well as DPS per ability (and in the future will add rotation simulation damage output) and I've come across something pretty odd. I haven't been able to raid last week so I couldn't test this, but i've read of people getting JoV crits between like 7-14k with 5 stacks of vengeance up on the target. What my program does is that it averages crit with non-crit damage (along with % crit and all that) and gives me an average damage for that ability. What I get is for average JoV is 6391.5093 (including righteous vengeance), and this seems to be pretty low given the crits people are getting.
A few things I did omit from all my abilities are increased damage% for all damage because it is just a relative measurement. This includes vengeance, sanctified retribution, etc. So, the average would probably increase a bit more, and given a conservative estimate i would guess along the lines of 7.5k ish. These numbers are based off of my current gear and include all applicable raid buffs (unless i missed some, which i don't think i did) and the raid buffed AP winds up to be around 7000 (this is not supposed to be completely accurate, but a pretty close number to what actual AP i should have raid buffed. Additionally, procs such as berserking and greatness are converted to their static AP values).
What my question is, is if people are getting values around what i posted (7.5k ish average for JoV w/ righteous vengeance) or are my calculations completely off. Granted, my gear is not BiS, but it's pretty good, i would expect those with better gear to get higher numbers for obvious reasons.
Additionally, another reason this concerns me is because the value I calculate for JoR (w/ Righteous Vengeance) is 6124.429, which is pretty damn close to JoV, and it just seems a little odd.
If you want me to post my calculations/program I will be glad to do so, but at the moment it may just seem a little extraneous.
Regarding Priorities:
I haven't actually programmed in testing rotations/priorities because I haven't really had too much time to do so, but I have listed out the DPS per ability and it seems to be that crusader strike (w/ righteous vengeance and the seal proc attached to it) is more DPS than HoW, so it would seem by intuition that CS would take priority over HoW. This is what I have as far as DPS numbers (damage/length of cooldown):
What does haste have to do with proccing AoW?
Might be just my imagination but it seems like since I dropped a trinket that has haste on it AoW doesnt proc as often. I am still leveling this pally and noticed that after I switched out the haste trinket that I could go 5 or 6 fights without AoW proccing. These were pretty much back to back fights with multiple mobs. Is this just a coincidence or would haste affect AoW uptime?
No, DoTs should not proc. However, JoW in my spreadsheet is worth close to 50 mana per second. Or 250MP5. That's an enormous change from a single buff.
My math is based on tests over in the JoW thread in this forum and each direct attack (white, CS, DS, Exo, Judge) can proc. In short, only Consecration cannot proc. Our "casts" are uniformly a GCD, plus we get autoattacks. Proc chance is around 37.5% (cast time or 1.5 seconds divided by 60 times 15 Proc Per Minute).
Compared to a true caster gaining JoW regen we perform significantly more attacks (GCD+auto compared to potential 2 or 3 second casts), therefore have more chances to proc. Since mana return is base mana we actually have an advantage there as well vs. most classes (Base Mana on Wowwiki).
So, yes, JoW alone is a phenomenal swing. Greater than Divine Plea on cooldown.
To add my personal experience as well: I was the only paladin last night in our 10 man Algalon attempts. I kept JoL up through the first couple of attempts (because of the high amounts of raid damage) but found myself dipping pretty low in the mana dept (getting close to 1k after the second BigBang) even though I was using DP on cd and had a mana spring. Our casters were complaining of mana issues as well. Once I started judging wisdom I had no problems (rarely dipping below 80%)
I also cannot reproduce J > CS with rawr, so I'm unsure what the variables are that is causing this. I have uld BiS gear equipped (minus shoulders f yogg), so it makes me think that gear and the weapon in particular might be behind the difference. The tiny bit of ArP on bis gear might also cause CS to be better since judgement gains nothing from it.
My most recent Algalon kill shows a mere 0.2% difference in total damage done (J 10.2%, CS 10%), and I'm pretty sure that the extra SoV procs from CS are more than enough to overtake .2% - this might change when we have 4pc T9, who knows.
Oh and 2 other things: berserking is indeed acting like it was on the PTR, the parse above shows exactly 75% uptime, 25% more than we had for 3.1. The other thing that is bugging quite a few paladins I talk to, is the seemingly extremely random nature of JoV. Sometimes you will crit for 7k without a stack up (and with no other paladin stacks up), and then later you will crit for 7k with a full 5 stack, only to crit a moment later for upwards of 12-14k. I don't ever remember the damage range for judgements being so wide - a case of bad RNG, or have others noticed this as well?
I am glad someone else has been able to point this out. My guild thinks I'm crazy. I will crit for 2k no stacks up and soon after crit for 2k again fully 5 stacked. Sometimes non stacked 5k crits to a fully stacked 5k crit, only to turn around 8 seconds later and see a 14-15k joc crit. These differences are noticable when our paladin is tanking compared to our warrior or deathknight. I'm almost sure the judgment is behaving differently on some level. Why it's doing this I am not sure. The range for crit and noncrit stacked and unstacked seems extremely random. The seal also seems to proc differently as well when theres a paladin tank.
I don't have two weeks worth of WOL parses to compare to yet, as this will be the second week of the patch.
Also has anyone noticed that How missle speed is extremely slow. When casting How(below 20%) of course) first priority How>Cs the animation or missle seems to clash with Cs.
Because CS's cooldown is so short (4 seconds), you need to spam to asap to get the best dps. In addition to having the most dps in reality and in Rawr (unless you are mana starved then judge Wisdom), making sure you use CS first in FCFS means you will better use that Armor Pen gear you will soon have (if you do ToC). Other than PvP or soloing, there is little reason to do Judgement first.
Once a Holy Pally get 2 Piece T9 they get long judgements (30 seconds) and it gives a ton of mana so worrying about JoL uptime isn't much of an issue.
Millions of words are written annually purporting to tell how to beat the races, whereas the best possible advice on the subject is found in the three monosyllables: 'Do not try.'
As I am well aware that ArP only applies to physical dmg, I wanted nonetheless to ask a rather anecdotal question, concerning the origins of SoB: I thought I read way back in tBC that SoB did in fact benefit from ArP because it was calculated after the white hit (taking those numbers to base the SoB proc on, thus benefitting indirectly from SoB).
I really didn't care much at the time as ally pally (curse you, SoC!), however I now want to ask if someone could clarify that particular issue, and verify if SoV (the percentage of weapon dmg part) is at complete armor ignore, as it should be, being magical in nature.
As I am well aware that ArP only applies to physical dmg, I wanted nonetheless to ask a rather anecdotal question, concerning the origins of SoB: I thought I read way back in tBC that SoB did in fact benefit from ArP because it was calculated after the white hit (taking those numbers to base the SoB proc on, thus benefitting indirectly from SoB).
I really didn't care much at the time as ally pally (curse you, SoC!), however I now want to ask if someone could clarify that particular issue, and verify if SoV (the percentage of weapon dmg part) is at complete armor ignore, as it should be, being magical in nature.
No, that myth came from people not understanding what "weapon damage" really means. No paladin seals based on weapon damage simply take how much your white swing hit for and then multiply it by .3 or something like that. Weapon damage literally means what the game calculates to be your weapon damage based on your weapon DPS and AP. Armor has no effect on "weapon damage". SoB never benefited from ArP because it dealt holy damage. That's like saying that SoB hits harder on cloth than on plate, which it doesn't.
All of our holy damage completely ignores armor. That means that judgement, SoV ticks, SoV seal procs, consecration, and exorcism are not affected by armor in anyway whatsoever and hence ArP will do nothing to their damage.
White attacks, CS, and DS do regular old physical damage which is mitigated by armor and hence ArP will increase the damage of these abilities.
08/11/09, 1:45 AM
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