I know there has been repeated mention of JoR not triggering JotW to proc due to the seal proc killing the target, but has anyone noticed judgement not triggering JotW to proc when using SoL or SoW? Over the few hours I've spent recently grinding rep from the Southsea pirates south of Ratchet, I've used JoW with SoW up, and nothing happens- no damage, no JotW, and the judgement is put on CD and the mana is consumed for the cast. It doesn't happen very frequently- maybe once or twice over an hour farming session- but each time I've seen it happen it doesn't even register in the combat log.

I was wondering if I'm the only one seeing this or if there's something special going on here.

Check your combat log and make sure the Judgment actually dealt damage.

Edit: I see you have the pyro rockets. If you have a macro that fires it and your Judgment simultaneously, there's your culprit.

just here to confirm that the libram is 100% uptime and amazing right now. 7179 dps on loot pinata #2. I'll post logs after raid.

World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

Perhaps I should've clarified. I only used judgement, nothing else, and the target didn't die, the judgement just failed to do anything. I don't have any macros binding any of the engineering on-use effects to any of my abilities. I couldn't check the combat log to see if it did damage because there was no combat log for the judgement when it failed to kill the target.

Just posting to those who didn't notice yet. SoR is fixed. No more double procs on judgement.

SoV still doesn't proc even once off judgement, I thought I saw someone say that this may be intended.

After a week of waiting, I finally purchased the badge libram and have some logs to show the uptime on it.

WoW Meter Online - Combatlog Replay

This is for XT-002 HM. As you can see, the fight was 9:37 long, the libram (shown as Holy Strength), has an outstanding 9:25 uptime.

WoW Meter Online - Combatlog Replay

This one is for Kologarn, the uptime during this fight was 2:46 out of a 2:49 fight.

During these fights (among others) I only saw the buff drop one time and was refreshed almost instantly after although they are listed as 95-97% uptime. I'm not too sure if Blizzard intended this, if so, it's essentially a passive 200STR (obv. more with Divine Strength/Kings) and should be anyone's first purchase with triumph badges.

elam (and any other skeptical paladins), all of the new badge librams/totems/sigils ect. function the same way our libram does - I know for a fact that our feral and elemental shaman are enjoying their new stuff and are equally surprised at the lack of ICD. Just for proof's sake, here's a log of tonight (World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis), I picked up the libram for jaraxxus onwards.

Bottom line, 25 badges for 200 STR is incredible and should be your first item upgrade. Also, thanks for those tests prinsea, will update.

World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

More libram numbers if anyone wants to browse. I have to say, if the relics for all classes are working as intended, then they are a steal at 25 badges. If you were to take a thrown weapon of the same ilvl, how close would the stat differences be? I know there was always talk about classes with relics being balanced around not having the stats a thrown weapon gave, but maybe it's possible they have sort of given up that way of thinking and this is their first plunge into relics being pretty much a stat stick without really being a stat stick...

Just got the libram of valiance and it got 100% uptime. tried it in raid as well as dummy and i can confirm that it got 100% uptime.

You'll certainly be able to obtain this at times, but on average over a single target 5 minute fight you'll probably see at least a few seconds of downtime. Still, this Libram rocks, and I'm going to be depressed once they increase the ICD.

Given that all the relics seem to work like that (ie near as damnit 100% uptime), might it be (dare I say it) working as intended?

Bumping this again...

I've glanced over the 3.1 thread but didn't really find the actual post you're referring to. There's 55 pages worth of 'babble' so I probably missed it if I my brain wasn't tuned in to the right type of keywords I was expecting to find. I'll do a more thourough check later...

I do want to point out however that the "iffy" part of this question with times between 0 and 0.1 to 0.2 (maybe as high as 0.3) is actually what I'm concerned about.

Since finding out about the 'Serious Help In Timing' mod, I find myself relying on it... maybe too much (?)... And With 3.2 and thus a lot more clashes happening, I have noticed on more than one occasion that 'SHIT' was suggesting a lower priority spell even though a higher priority spell seemed to be available. Checking a combatlog afterwards however showed that the mod was correct in that the lower priority spell was available while the higher priority one would have come off cd a hair of a second later. If I hadn't been using 'SHIT' I wouldn't have noticed the difference myself and would have hit the higher priority spell instead.
With the mod, you know well ahead of time what will be next in line, and you already have your brain set to hit that button (yes, by that I mean mindlessly spamming the button until it casts). It's timing decisions are perfect, and in that respect... maybe 'perfect' isn't perfect, and having the human error factor in is better (?). So it got me wondering if the mod would end up being better if it factored that in. And how much of a DPS difference you are likely going to see from this.

With a mod, the whole 'iffy' part kind of fades away afterall. The mod tells you 'press that button next', and you kinda spam it until it actually gets cast.

Since relics are specific to the classes typically (mis)called hybrids (warriors are hybrids too afterall)... They do offer a way for blizzard to finetune DPS, mitigation, healing throughput etc for a specific class and even a specific spec of a certain class.

Maybe the libram having near 100% uptime is Blizzard's way to put ret DPS right where they want it, and if it turns out too high, just tweak the numbers on the libram a bit without tweaking abilities that have invariably an impact on other specs as well. And yes, maybe it over emphasizes the relic slot above all for us, but given that the libram is essentially easy to get even for ret's not doing any raid at all (it only takes 2 weeks of doing the daily HC) it may be this is the way for blizzard to finetune us.

The libram working with proc (even if the uptime is very high) also limit the whines about Ret upfront damage.

Was SoR hotfixed to eliminate the SoR proc on Judgement? If so, are the statements above still true?

Looking at the 5 i245 ranged drops from ToC,
Rhok'shalla, the Shadow's Bane - Items - Sigrie
Baelgun's Heavy Crossbow - Items - Sigrie
The Diplomat - Items - Sigrie
Rod of Imprisoned Souls - Items - Sigrie
Talonstrike - Items - Sigrie

I think we are just winning, but for ret at least there is the consideration that we only get the benefit when using SoV. So on trash and short boss phases when we use SoR we will not be getting anything from the badges spent and be using a different libram.

Same thought crossed my mind and I actually just double-checked this. The answer is, if you can average 2 stacks on your target, SoV pulls ahead by a narrow margin (about 30DPS in my gear). For AOE SoR will be superior unless you have a main target and AOE is incidental (such as Assault Bots in Mimiron P3).

If you can get an average of 2 stacks on all targets, SoV+Libram will win, but since you'll often Judge before this occurs (CS+J is 3 seconds, which should be before the 2nd autoattack hits) it's probably vaguely around the 9 second range that you break even. Notice wiggle words of probably and vaguely. Gear can have an impact.

Only edge case I could see a potential change is Yogg P1 and P2. In 10man outside and inside tentacles don't last 9 seconds - stick with SoR. In 25man outside (Corrupter) often last more than 9 sec (for my guild, your mileage may vary), but inside still sub-9 sec. Regardless I'd recommend stick with SoR P1-2 and toggle SoV as you run to brain once illusion breaks, back to SoR as you portal out.

If you want, you can bind a libram swap to changing seal. Hopefully you're doing this when you're not on a target anyhow, so reset autoattack should be non-issue. Thus have something like the Libram of Discord (DS Libram for AOE) or Gladiator Libram with SoR and the Valiance with SoV.

TLDR: No real change - stick with SoR for AOE or quickly dead targets, SoV for long term targets.

Since the best dps is from using the SoV glyph, if you were doing calculations which seal is better you should add in dps loss from dodge/parries from losing some expertise.

Especially when AoEing (where you get parries because there are many mobs), more expertise past the dodge cap can be useful (personally I am 4 expertise extra due to glyph).

This is an example of where libram swapping would be useful via macro. Simply make two macros, one for SoR and one for SoV, and macro the appropriate libram. For example (not 100% sure if these will work):

#showtooltip Seal of Vengeance
/cast Seal of Vengeance
/equip Libram of Valiance

#showtooltip Seal of Righteousness
/cast Seal of Righteousness
/equip Deadly Gladiator's Libram of Fortitude

This will equip the libram in the same GCD as the seal cast. Since you typically wouldn't use this while attacking a mob, the swing timer reset penalty is minimal.

This will work, I did this as soon as I got Valiance yesterday. Like Zurm said, you most likely wont be changing seals while on a target so the swing timer reset wont matter.

I.E. After killing tentacles in Brain Room, use the SoC/V macro as you're running back to the brain. Then you can switch back to SoR as you're running back down (taking portal).

10 extra expertise is 2.5% less parry from the front, applicable to AOE packs very often. This is, more or less, an average of 2.5% more damage. Not precisely true, but good enough for napkin math.

However, on average 2.5% more damage from SoV glyph still doesn't counterbalance the reduced damage from 0-stack procs and Judgements.

Remember I found that you need an average of 2 stacks to break even. On 4 mobs this is infeasible - even if you push one to 5 stacks (5+0+0+0)/4 = 1.25 stacks. Again, using SoV for AOE is only useful on a situation such as P3 Mimiron Assault Bots (where incidental AOE to Junk bots is fine, but burning the Assault is the goal). SoV won't be an AOE specific seal even with 200Str from the Libram.

Use the seal+libram swap macros that Zurm has posted and win.

Where things get complicated is with the presence of a prot pally: the other mobs will or will not have several stacks of holy vengeance (if there are more than 4 mobs total), which you might or might not hit (depending on how divine storm chooses its targets). At this point expertise begins doubledipping for SoV, as divine storm procs SoV (which can be parried). I guess, the safe boat in that regard is still SoR (which does only simpledip in expertise as it always hits if the underlying strike hits for that matter).

Also remember that most mobpacks are not at bosslvl, so your "effective" antidodge and antiparry is higher.