Retribution: Updated for 3.3 - Page 133

Kolori · 02/04/10, 11:31 AM

Originally Posted by stealthmarauder

Hey Kolori, I was wondering if you could remind me when 2HWS started affecting Judgement damage. I was always under the impression that Judgements aren't weapon attacks, therefore should not affect JoV at all. Is this another small quirk or Seal of Vengeance that Paladins must learn amongst the many quirks.

"If you do choose one or the other, Crusade > 2HWS. Players are humanoids, so Crusade increases damage done by all of your attacks by 6%. 2HWS on the other hand does not affect Judgement, Hammer of Wrath, etc." -RetPaladin.com

I dont know when, we all were living under the same assumption that it didnt. However the data I recently posted argues against it.

Exemplar · 02/04/10, 11:35 AM

Originally Posted by stealthmarauder

Oh I see, that makes a lot of sense. I think JoC is the only judge modified by weapon dmg, therefore the only Judgement that would be affected by 2HWS, still unsure why Kolori stated that 2HWS affects JoV, it are hurting my maths, if anyone could clear this part up it would be nice =D

Please re-read Kolori's post and the nice table (s)he attached. It tests various expected/received damage with various combinations of talents and glyphs. The numbers for JoV align if and only if 2H Weapon Spec indeed influences damage.

Spec	Expected	Occurred
Everything by 2H Weap Spec	1173.36	1174
Including 2H Weap Spec	1243.77	1244

If 2H Weap Spec did not influence the damage, the last Occurred result would still be 1174. It is not. Q.E.D.

When did the change occur? Unknown. It was not so at Wrath release, but our mechanics have been revamped multiple times.

Daeluin · 02/04/10, 11:41 AM

That is very interesting. I would guess that the change happened when the nature of Judgement changed from a quasi-ranged mechanic to a true melee mechanic, which happened sometime around the big Seal changes with the ditching of Seal of Blood if I recall correctly.

Good find.

Glutton · 02/04/10, 12:15 PM

Originally Posted by Daeluin

2HWS spec affects anything with a weapon damage coefficient. Like you say, unless it's a quirk, JoV doesn't have a weapon damage coefficient, and is not affected by 2HWS.

From my testing JoR, JoC, and JoV are all modified by 2HWS. However the glyph, 4P T10, and SotP are all additive rather than multiplicative, so in most models this probably cancels out any theoretical gain from the additional 2HWS multiplier.

zamm · 02/04/10, 12:21 PM

Originally Posted by Slate

Festergut being a good comparison fight, I found that I lost approximately 600 dps compared to the same fight last week. I think the only gear change I have had is that I upgraded my Tier 10 (base) gloves, to the Fleshrending Gauntlets. Berserk uptime was approximately the same.

This weeks Festergut: World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

Last weeks Festergut: World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

Fight was 30 seconds shorter this week, but not sure that the small difference in fight length and RNG could account for 600dps.

Here are two more parses for Festergut from this week and last week:

This week: World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

Last week: World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

Gear is identical, buffs I think are the same, this week I did 200 DPS less but that could be down to general incompetence or just RNG.

The most interesting thing for me is with the Drain Life data, it appears that it now procs less often. Whether this is a bug or a deliberate nerf I do not know.

Glutton · 02/04/10, 12:31 PM

Hmm. Looking over your first log you had an observed proc rate of 7%. On my Sindragosa 25 from yesterday (I highly recommend Bryntroll self healing on that encounter!) I had an observed 6.9% proc rate. Perhaps something has indeed changed. If anyone wants to test it, spam Judgement on a dummy (while not meleeing) and determine if any double or triple procs occur. Repeat the test for Crusader Strike. If no double or triple procs occur, then it suggests they removed procs from Righteous Vengeance and/or the Judgement debuff. Using a 1x weight on CS, DS, and J on both of our parses brings the proc % up to 10%, which is much more in tune with the 11.3% ideal proc rate.

Belfast o' Gnomer · 02/04/10, 12:35 PM

First time poster here. I'm seeing some posts about the Bryntroll having lower proc rate now since the last patch. Is there a last official word on this yet? If, in fact, they did lower the proc rate then would Shadow's Edge be higher dps? I had been planning on grabbing up Bryntroll the next time I saw it but if it has been nerfed then I'll go for Shadow's Edge instead. Thanks

Kromix · 02/04/10, 12:36 PM

I did a test yesterday first with normal gear (minus trinkets and AV ring) and with no seal, and observed a procrate of roughly 11.4% (which is roughly the 2 ppm as determined before):

World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

I also did a test on a dummy with all my gear on in a normal rotation for about half as much time as the test before (about 20 min). The test should have been longer, but here's the log that I have anyways:

World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

Glutton · 02/04/10, 12:48 PM

Shadow's Edge was already superior to 264 Bryntroll. Any further nerf will merely widen the gap.

Looking at your normal rotation log:
(114+7)/(162+216+133+70*2+90*3+134+99*2+156+102*2) = 7.5% proc rate (traditional calculation)

(114+7)/(162+216+133+70+90+134+99+156+102) = 10.4% proc rate (eliminate double procs on DS/CS crit & J hit, and triple procs on J crit)

Such a large shift certainly suggests that RV is no longer procing Drain Life, however you'd need a pure Judgement test to make any determination about the Judgement debuff. The funny thing is that Tiny Abomination's behavior still hasn't been altered.

Kellendros · 02/04/10, 2:35 PM

Originally Posted by Glutton

Shadow's Edge was already superior to 264 Bryntroll. Any further nerf will merely widen the gap.

I was unaware of this, since our bis-list topic never suggested shadow's edge over bryntoll on any of the proposed bis-sets (normal-plate, hard-plate, free for all). I also, never found such numbers on rawr , but im not familiar with any other spreadsheets.

Could u please inform where did u research such information? i have both weapons and that statement really broke my beliefs

obs: I’m trying my best to express myself in English, i apologize for any mistakes in grammar.

Arikah · 02/04/10, 3:01 PM

Originally Posted by Slate

Festergut being a good comparison fight, I found that I lost approximately 600 dps compared to the same fight last week. I think the only gear change I have had is that I upgraded my Tier 10 (base) gloves, to the Fleshrending Gauntlets. Berserk uptime was approximately the same.

This weeks Festergut: World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

Last weeks Festergut: World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

Fight was 30 seconds shorter this week, but not sure that the small difference in fight length and RNG could account for 600dps.

I'm not seeing any drain life in your logs nor TAJ procs so I'm going to chalk that up to pure RNG. My personal logs are incomparable to last week because of the heavy lag spikes, but from your logs you simply got screwed on crit RNG. Fight length also does affect dps... you don't seem to be considering the fact that while you did use AW 3 times in each log, you didn't get full usage out of your third one this week and also had one less paragon/greatness proc due to shorter fightlength. It seems strange that the group as a whole can do better and make you appear worse, but ideal fight lengths for ret always end at an even minute (2/4/6/8/10) + :30-:45, because we generally don't AW on the pull thanks to SoV.

We killed sindragosa10 yesterday, and my advice for her is to stick with the T9 libram and learn to use SS again. In fact, I'm finding the rampup time for the T10 libram to be unacceptable on the more important fights (BQL, sind) - I guess it's a good thing that it is only very slightly better than T9.

Exemplar · 02/04/10, 3:02 PM

Edit:
Correction - I got the log files reversed (this week was before last week in his post).

No proc less than 0.8 seconds apart. From limited sample size this is either:
A) nerf in proc rate overall (unlikely)
B) some mechanics can no longer proc (likely)
C) internal cooldown added to prevent double-procs (possible)

An out-of-melee range test of CS and Judgement would be nice. By standing at the proper distance it's possible to CS without autoattack, as we know to our detriment. No autoattacks to proc, CS crits would have double-chance if RV still procs, and Judgements triple if the debuff and RV could still apply. A nice thousand attacks should have a decent chance of generating the theoretical average of 10 double procs (11.3%^2 is about 1%). No double procs in this many attacks would help drive to the correct mechanical change.

Soher · 02/04/10, 3:05 PM

Originally Posted by Glutton

Shadow's Edge was already superior to 264 Bryntroll. Any further nerf will merely widen the gap.

Looking at your normal rotation log:
(114+7)/(162+216+133+70*2+90*3+134+99*2+156+102*2) = 7.5% proc rate (traditional calculation)

(114+7)/(162+216+133+70+90+134+99+156+102) = 10.4% proc rate (eliminate double procs on DS/CS crit & J hit, and triple procs on J crit)

Such a large shift certainly suggests that RV is no longer procing Drain Life, however you'd need a pure Judgement test to make any determination about the Judgement debuff. The funny thing is that Tiny Abomination's behavior still hasn't been altered.

This also means that other 264 ilevel weapons can take Bryntroll's place? As far as I know, after the continious nerfs to the axe it barely keeps it's place and maybe even TAiaJ can't make it pull ahead enough anymore.

• frmorrison · 02/04/10, 6:55 PM

Originally Posted by Kellendros

I was unaware of this, since our bis-list topic never suggested shadow's edge over bryntoll on any of the proposed bis-sets (normal-plate, hard-plate, free for all). I also, never found such numbers on rawr , but im not familiar with any other spreadsheets.

Could u please inform where did u research such information? i have both weapons and that statement really broke my beliefs

obs: I’m trying my best to express myself in English, i apologize for any mistakes in grammar.

Shadow's Edge has always been better than Bryntroll after the first nerf. Rawr says Edge is better as well (comparing 264 to 264).

Originally Posted by Soher

This also means that other 264 ilevel weapons can take Bryntroll's place? As far as I know, after the continious nerfs to the axe it barely keeps it's place and maybe even TAiaJ can't make it pull ahead enough anymore.

Shadow's Edge, Glorenzelg, High-Blade of the Silver Hand, Warmace of Menethil (10 heroic verison) and Oathbringer all beat it. Note the last few are all 271. Bryn is still the number two 264 weapon (Rawr never modeled the "strange" proc chances, so its modeling is more accurate than before).

Grigorim · 02/04/10, 7:09 PM

Bryn is still the number two 264 weapon.

It might be a bit early to make that statement if, as in the quoted Bluedeep post, RV is no longer proccing Drain Life.