I'm probably wrong here but I figure if I'm gonna be wrong I may as well be wrong near the beginning. I thought I read somewhere that both Redcape's and Endoscient's stat numbers agreed that str is better than the hit cap now like 3.0. Sorry if I'm wrong but if by chance I'm right I'd rather it get changed now.

The numbers provided by all the tools are based on what they are wearing; since everyone is hitcapped, STR is by far the best stat. Even if STR is better than hit point for point, there is no reason to not be hitcapped in 3.2 due to the amount of hit available on items (it's common to have too much hit).

Okay. Re-mathed now that we know of partial-stack procs. I'm assuming white melee proc lower %, then stack next debuff. However, even if hit increases stack and then procs the end result is unchanged.

Weapon: Rune Edge
Fully raid buffed with:
6468 AP, 2220 Spellpower, Hitcap, almost Expertise cap, 26.4% haste, 44.2% crit, 17.9% ArmPen. No procs of trinket, Berserking, etc.

0 - Autoattack (1), CS (1), 1-proc (1)
1.5 - JoV (1), 1-proc (2)
2.69 - Autoattack (2), 1-proc (3)
3 - DS (1), DoT tick (1), 2-proc (1)
4.5 - CS (2), 2-proc (2)
5.38 - Autoattack (3), 2-proc (3)
6 - Cons (1 tick), DoT tick (2)
7 - Cons (2 ticks)
7.5 - Exo (1)
8 - Cons (3 ticks)
8.07 - Autoattack (4), 3-proc (1)
9 - CS (3), Cons (4 ticks), DoT tick (3), 4-proc (1)
10 - Cons (5 ticks)
10.5 - JoV (2), 4-proc (2)
10.76 - Autoattack (5), 4-proc (3)
11 - Cons (6 ticks)
12 - Cons (7 ticks), DoT tick (4)
13 - CS (4), Cons (8 ticks), 5-proc (1)
13.44 - Autoattack (6), 5-proc (2)
15 - Cons (9 ticks)
14.07 - nothing

CS - 4
Average Hit: 2114
Average Crit 4357
(2114 * (1 - .442)) + (4357 * .442) = 3105
3105 * 4 = 12420 total CS damage
JoV - 2
Average Hit: 2435
Average Crit: 5018
(2435 * (1 - .622)) + (5018 * .622) = 4041 (note Judgement's special crit rate)
1 stack: 4041 * 1.1 = 4445
4 stacks 4041 * 1.4 = 5658
4445 + 5658 = 10103 total JoV damage
DS - 1
Average Hit: 2710
Average Crit: 5584
(2710 * (1 - .442)) + 5584 * .442) = 3980 total DS damage
Cons - 1 (9 ticks)
Average Tick: 601
601 * 9 = 5409 total Cons damage
Exo - 1
Average Hit: 4551
Average Crit: 6966
(4551 * (1 - .442)) + 6966 * .442) = 5618
5618 total Exo damage
Auto - 6
Average Hit: 2091
Average Crit: 4310
(2091 * (1 - .442)) + 4310 * .442) = 3071
3071 * 6 = 18426 total Autoattack damage
SoV Procs
1 stack: (225 * (1 - .442)) + (463 * .442) = 330
2 stacks: (450 * (1 - .442)) + (927 * .442) = 661
3 stacks: (674 * (1 - .442)) + (1390 * .442) = 990
4 stacks: (899 * (1 - .442)) + (1853 * .442) = 1321
5 stacks: (1124 * (1 - .442)) + (2316 * .442) = 1651
(330 * 3) + (661 * 3) + 990 + (1321 * 3) + (1651 * 2) = 11227 total proc damage
SoV DoT ticks - 4
Damage (2 stacks): 396
Damage (3 stacks): 594
Damage (4 stacks): 792
Damage (5 stacks): 990
396 + 594 + 792 + 990 = 2772 total DoT damage
Grand Total Damage: 69955

Weapon: Rune-Etched Nightblade
Shield: Bulwark of Algalon with epic Str gem (maximum Str)
Fully raid buffed with:
6678 AP, 2283 Spellpower, Hitcap, almost Expertise cap, 26.4% haste, 40.7% crit, 14.4% ArmP. No procs of trinket, etc. Superior Potency on weapon.

0 - Autoattack (1), CS (1), 1-proc (1)
1.1 - Autoattack (2), 1-proc (2)
1.5 - JoV (1), 2-proc (1)
2.2 - Autoattack (3), 2-proc (2)
3 - DS (1), DoT tick (1). 3-proc (1)
3.3 - Autoattack (4), 3-proc (2)
4.4 - Autoattack (5), 4-proc (1)
4.5 - CS (2), swap weapon to same as initial, 5-proc (1)

6 - Cons (1 tick), DoT tick (2)
7 - Cons (2 ticks)
7.5 - Exo (1)
8 - Cons (3 ticks)
8.69 - 2HAutoattack (1), 5-proc (1)
9 - CS (1), Cons (4 ticks), DoT tick (3), 5-proc (2)
10 - Cons (5 ticks)
10.5 - JoV (1), 5-proc (3)
11 - Cons (6 ticks)
11.38 - 2HAutoattack (2), 5-proc (4)
12 - Cons (7 ticks), DoT tick (4)
13 - CS (2), Cons (8 ticks), 5-proc (5)
14 - Cons (9 ticks)
14.07 - 2HAutoattack (3), 5-proc (6)

1H Portion
CS - 2
Average Hit: 1626
Average Crit: 3350
(1626 * (1 - .407)) + (3350 * .407) = 2328
2328 * 2 = 4656 total CS damage
JoV - 1
Average Hit: 2510
Average Crit: 5174
(2510 * (1 - .587)) + (5174 * .587) = 3594 (Note Judgement's special crit rate)
2 stacks 3594 * 1.2 = 4313 total JoV damage
DS - 1
Average Hit: 2134
Average Crit: 4397
(2134 * (1 - .407)) + (4397 * .407) = 3055 total DS damage
Auto - 5
Average Hit: 784
Average Crit: 1615
(784 * (1 - .407)) + (1615 * .407) = 1122
1122 * 5 = 5611 total Autoattack damage
SoV DoT ticks - 4
Damage (3 stacks): 396 total DoT damage
SoV Procs
1 stack: (85 * (1 - .407)) + (176 * .407) = 122
2 stacks: (171 * (1 - .407)) + (352 * .407) = 245
3 stacks: (256 * (1 - .407)) + (528 * .407) = 367
4 stacks: (341 * (1 - .407)) + (703 * .407) = 488
5 stacks: (427 * (1 - .407)) + (879 * .407) = 610
(122 * 2) + (245 * 2) + (367 * 2) + 488 + 610 = 2566 total proc damage
1H Total Damage: 20597

2H Portion
CS - 2
Average Hit: 2114
Average Crit 4357
(2114 * (1 - .442)) + (4357 * .442) = 3105
3105 * 2 = 6210 total CS damage
JoV - 1
Average Hit: 2435
Average Crit: 5018
(2435 * (1 - .622)) + (5018 * .622) = 4041 (note Judgement's special crit rate)
5 stacks 4041 * 1.5 = 6061 total JoV damage
Cons - 1 (9 ticks)
Average Tick: 601
601 * 9 = 5409 total Cons damage
Exo - 1
Average Hit: 4551
Average Crit: 6966
(4551 * (1 - .442)) + 6966 * .442) = 5618
5618 total Exo damage
Auto - 3
Average Hit: 2091
Average Crit: 4310
(2091 * (1 - .442)) + 4310 * .442) = 3071
3071 * 3 = 9213 total Autoattack damage
SoV Procs
5 stacks: (1124 * (1 - .442)) + (2316 * .442) = 1651
(6 * 1651) = 9906 total SoV proc damage
(330 * 3) + (661 * 3) + 990 + (1321 * 3) + (1651 * 2) = 11227 total proc damage
SoV DoT ticks - 4
Damage (5 stacks): 990
990 * 3 = 2970 total DoT damage
2H Total Damage: 45387

Grand Total: 65984

Difference: 65984 - 98855 = -3971 damage.

Again, I did this in notepad with a lot of scrolling up and down and copy/paste from Excel - it's entirely possible I have a math or (more likely) transcription error somewhere.

Swapping weapons with a very fast melee weapon and the best shield currently available is a loss of nearly 4k damage. If you're less than robotic it's an even greater loss.

TLDR: In every circumstance, weapon swapping is a DPS loss.

In crap gear (crafted PvP) then Str > Hit. As you gain better gear (hit harder) a miss is more significant and Hit becomes > Str. As Arikah said, should be easy to get Hit on gear, but you do want hit cap. Expertise slightly less important, but it'll be ridiculously easy to get, and if you're short just glyph SoV.

've been thinking about my spec for 3.2.

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?pala...&version=10192

It's a risk I am thinking about, I want to keep the usefulness D.Sac brought to our raids, as well as bring the new Vindication (Demo Shout). We Run a Warrior Tank and he sometimes ditches Demo Shout if he is stressing threat. Does anyone think that sacrificing the one point from PoJ is too much of a liability especially considering the time we need on Target to ramp up?

Depending on your raid makeup, you could alternately drop one point from Swift Retribution while maintaining raid buffs. However, if you don't have the Moonkin available, you're going to want to look elsewhere for that movable point.

I think that DivSac's usefulness is going to be 0 if it is indeed consumed regardless of bubble. In those cases where you'd use it; it'd most likely be for a tank situation... since an AOE situation would not absorb very much at all. (Maybe 1.5k per raid member). If in fact you are in a tank situation; you'd use Hand of Sacrifice anyways to ensure the full absorption is on the tank and not spread amongst the entire raid.

If thats the case; I think that the standard build would revolve around 5/5/57 with 4 points being in limbo.
(This assumes you are getting swift retribution, imp might, and vindication). Four points would be most useful in Divine Purpose or Divinity (I -believe- it still increases JoL healing).

Something like this: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

Obviously if you are always going to have various buffs from other places you can move points around. I'd keep vindication though as it is essentially a static debuff that will always be up.

Why bother with the 1 point in SoC when SoR is better with 5 points in SoTP?

I was curious if someone would be kind enough to post a list of all actions/abilities that actually do reset the swing timer.

Has anyone been able to confirm that SoV doesnt proc from Judgements?
Or was that just an error?
I'm at work or i'd check myself.

You can't push parries off the attack table because the rating needed on gear does not exist... even using the sov glyph you'd need like 450 rating? And since gemming for expertise is advised against, then well, you see where this leads.

baba: If you are doing it right, then none of the abilities used as ret will reset the swing timer. Only if you are doing it wrong (hardcasting exo or flash, casting hl ect) will you get a timer reset penalty.

Ya, I had been trying to tell a few fellow rets that was the case, just wanted some clarification though. Also, thank you for all the time and effort you have put into the new 3.2 thread.