Retribution: Updated for 3.3 - Page 33

flyingtoastr · 08/17/09, 2:35 PM

Originally Posted by Wutangrza

Even at 1 expertise, you are removing .25% dodge AND .25% parry (when attacking from the front) from the table. So when you are at the "soft-cap" for expertise, you have pushed ALL 6.5% dodge off the table, as well as 6.5% of parry from the table. Sure, the mob can still parry you, but you have in fact removed parries from the table (6.5% worth).

Removing some parry from the hit table is not the same as removing parry from the table. The term "off the table" comes from the old uncrushable tanking calculations with hit tables, and it means there is a 0% chance of something occurring. In order to "remove parry from the table" you have to be full expertise capped at ~15%, something a ret paladin will never ever do (yes it may be possible, but you're sacrificing so many other good stats it will never be worth it). I believe you're confusing the words "reduce" and "remove" in this case: you can reduce the amount of parries though soft-cap Expertise, but you can not remove it.

If you're this upset about such a small detail he could change the OP to something like "for all intents and purposes you can not remove parry from the hit table". This, however, was something that belonged in a PM and not in the thread.

Pyrashe · 08/17/09, 2:37 PM

Originally Posted by Zurm

*Twitch*

I wish there was some kind of way we could make sure new posters never did this. Target dummies are, bare with me here, *NEVER* a reasonable way to test DPS in any fashion whatsoever. They don't work right with certain damage increasing talents, and your abilities scale very differently with raid buffs. The ONLY thing target dummies are ever good for are practicing your rotation or for checking procs.

My apologies, I wasn't using the dummy itself to measure, per se. Whenever I test on a dummy, I add 1500 dps to whatever number I end up with to come up with any kind of accurate reading. It's not a scientific measure, and I don't want to give the impression that it's the only thing I'm trying.

After further testing and math, including a couple of quick instance runs, I definitely do better with glyph of consecrate than glyph of avenging wrath.

Wutangrza · 08/17/09, 2:38 PM

What verb would you use to describe what happens to the 6.25% chance to dodge that gets removed when I have 25 expertise? I would say that those 6.25% were, I dunno, removed from the table?

edit: I guess it's because I still look at it as a table, just like the old uncrushable thing.

If I have something like

+--------------------------------------------------------------------------+
|  glance      |        crit        |      hit                | dodge/parry|
+--------------------------------------------------------------------------+
0              24                                                       100

As I gain expertise, what is happening is that the hit portion of that table is growing thus pushing dodges and parries off the table. Even if I have not completely pushed all of them off the table, I am certainly still removing some from the table.

+--------------------------------------------------------------------------+
|  glance      |        crit        |                  hit            | dod|ge/parry
+--------------------------------------------------------------------------+
0              24                                                        100

^That's what happens when you gain expertise.

flyingtoastr · 08/17/09, 2:39 PM

Originally Posted by Wutangrza

What verb would you use to describe what happens to the 6.25% chance to dodge that gets removed when I have 25 expertise? I would say that those 6.25% were, I dunno, removed from the table?

You reduced the chance you would be parried by 6.5%.

E:

Originally Posted by Wutangrza

And I gain expertise, what is happening is that the hit portion of that table is growing thus pushing dodges and parries off the table. Even if I have not completely pushed all of them off the table, I am certainly still removing some from the table.

I made the important word there obnoxious. You are getting rid of some of the chance to be parried with your expertise soft-cap, yes. You are not removing the chance to be parried from the hit table, however. Arikah is, in effect, using "parry" in his sentence as a contraction for "chance to be parried". You will not remove your chance to be parried through Expertise, you will simply be reducing it. Thus his wording is perfectly acceptable.

• Zurm · 08/17/09, 2:57 PM

Originally Posted by Pyrashe

My apologies, I wasn't using the dummy itself to measure, per se. Whenever I test on a dummy, I add 1500 dps to whatever number I end up with to come up with any kind of accurate reading. It's not a scientific measure, and I don't want to give the impression that it's the only thing I'm trying.

Not to be mean, but adding 1500 dps is an aweful way to go about it. See the main thing about the target dummy is that the ratio of damage you do in a raid with proper buffs + debuffs is quite different than what you'll see on a target dummy. The respective ratio of damage that comes from each ability changes GREATLY (especially physical damage abilties, thanks to sunder). Just get out of the mindset that target dummies are helpful at all when it comes to determining DPS in any fashion.

Wutangrza · 08/17/09, 3:00 PM

Fine, then I submit my other argument. The post right below mine that clearly shows it is in fact possible to remove parries from the table.

Just edit the damn post to explain what expertise actually does, something like:

Each point of expertise reduces a mobs chance to both dodge and parry by .25%. For a ret paladin, we need 26 expertise, since this will completely remove a mobs' chance to dodge, and all parries are removed simply by attacking from behind.

My point is that as it's worded now, and I'll quote the whole thing:

Expertise
Introduced in late BC, this stat allows us to remove dodges from the attack table - you cannot remove parries from the table, but you only get parried from the front, so don't attack bosses from the front! 8.2 rating gives 1 expertise; you need 214 expertise rating (26 expertise, 6.5%) to reach the cap. If you are a human using a sword/mace you need 23 expertise (189 rating), and if you are a dwarf using a mace you need 21 expertise (173 rating) to reach the cap due to racials. Capping this stat is a significant dps increase vs uncapped (or none at all) as it affects our whites and strikes. You ideally want to cap this stat alongside hit in order to maximize your dps and this is possible in 3.1/3.2 with the amount of expertise on gear. Do not gem for expertise, let it come naturally with gear or glyphs (see glyph section).

It makes no mention of parry. To someone who does not know what expertise does, this is wrong. Expertise removes both dodge and parry, 1 point = .25% of each.

tarja · 08/17/09, 3:14 PM

This discussion seems to come up every 5-10 pages or so. I'm only going to make one quick post since it isn't that important really, and also because I've posted about it before.

The way the original post describes expertise is technically wrong, there is no way to argue otherwise. Parry *can* be removed from the attack table. To anyone who already knows what expertise does, it is abundantly clear that the poster actually means something along the lines of "it is not feasible to remove parries since stacking that much expertise would be an enormous DPS loss". However, anyone who is reading the description of expertise because they don't already know what expertise does, is going to get the wrong impression and end up misinformed. At best, they may interpret the statement to mean that some amount of parry% simply cannot be removed (such as how spellhit used to work). Or at worst, they may interpret the statement to mean that expertise does not affect parry at all, and that the 26 expertise required to be dodge-capped would not reduce parry by 6.5% also (which would be very, very wrong).

At this point, you may as well just change it so we can stop having this discussion come up every couple weeks, when it really isn't important anyways.

Hogun · 08/17/09, 5:24 PM

To move from the expertise discussion for a moment, In reading these forums I have heard mention that as of now 22 agility enchant to cloak is the way to go for non tailoring rets. I have also read that "at some point" 23 haste will be superior, My question is: Is there a set approxomation as to when that might be?

Holtzhammer · 08/17/09, 5:29 PM

Originally Posted by Wutangrza

Fine, then I submit my other argument. The post right below mine that clearly shows it is in fact possible to remove parries from the table.

The simple explanation on the front page will suffice for the purposes of this thread and all other ones. The fact that while it may be *possible* to push parry complete off the hit table it is not *advised* since you will lose so much DPS.

Now, you can stop beating this dead horse. Ret only needs 26 expertise to push Dodge off the table. The fact that we push parry off as well is a bonus. You should be attacking from the back, therefore you wont be getting any parries.

Thanks.

Edit: If paladins cant hover over expertise on their character and read how it reduces both, then editing a post that basically does the same wont help them either--it'll just ease your conscious.

tarja · 08/17/09, 5:43 PM

Originally Posted by Hogun

I have also read that "at some point" 23 haste will be superior, My question is: Is there a set approxomation as to when that might be?

They'll pretty much always be so close that the only real way to tell would be to use Rawr or one of the other spreadsheets. Without checking one of those with your exact gear/buffs, the only rule of thumb approximation you can really come up with is "they're pretty close so you can't really go TOO wrong with either one"

Wutangrza · 08/17/09, 5:51 PM

You could make the same argument about everything. "It's wrong, but who cares, it's obvious, so why edit it."

Crit rating should be edited to "Crit rating increases melee crit."

Sure, it's not 100% correct because it also increases spell crit, but who's counting? We don't need to worry about clarity here.

• frmorrison · 08/17/09, 6:49 PM

Originally Posted by Hogun

To move from the expertise discussion for a moment, In reading these forums I have heard mention that as of now 22 agility enchant to cloak is the way to go for non tailoring rets. I have also read that "at some point" 23 haste will be superior, My question is: Is there a set approxomation as to when that might be?

23 Haste used to be better with Seal of Blood. Now that we use SoV, crit becomes more important. That said, 22 agility is 6 dps better using the BiS list (since that has 2T9) or 1 dps using my current gear.

What else is interesting about Crit is as you get BiS gear Rawr says HoW should be used 2nd to last for the most dps. Currently with T8, it is best to use HoW first, but maybe that is because of 2T8 bonus.

Grigorim · 08/17/09, 6:51 PM

To move from the expertise discussion for a moment, In reading these forums I have heard mention that as of now 22 agility enchant to cloak is the way to go for non tailoring rets. I have also read that "at some point" 23 haste will be superior, My question is: Is there a set approxomation as to when that might be?

You could check Rawr and alter some gear. I have heard the same thing, but at my current gear level (mostly 226, ilvl 200 trinkets, a couple 232 pieces) Haste is coming up better than Agility in Rawr.

CrimsonDeath · 08/17/09, 7:27 PM

Originally Posted by Holtzhammer

The simple explanation on the front page will suffice for the purposes of this thread and all other ones. The fact that while it may be *possible* to push parry complete off the hit table it is not *advised* since you will lose so much DPS.

I don't normally chime in, but I'm feeling compelled to add my $0.02 here.

I know how melee mechanics work, and I understand Expertise and its relationship with Dodge and Parries. But reading the first post really made me scratch my head and second guess myself. The statement as it reads, is flat out wrong on several accounts. Firstly, you can (and should) remove *some* parries from the table. Secondly, it is quite easy, as has been demonstrated, (though you shouldn't be trying it) to remove *all* parries from the table.

And given how this site prides itself on providing useful and *accurate* information, I'm surprised this is being debated. After a few people have commented that the wording is unclear or misleading - just change the wording! It shouldn't need to be debated any further IMO.

Aurarius · 08/17/09, 11:23 PM

Originally Posted by frmorrison

23 Haste used to be better with Seal of Blood. Now that we use SoV, crit becomes more important. That said, 22 agility is 6 dps better using the BiS list (since that has 2T9) or 1 dps using my current gear.

What else is interesting about Crit is as you get BiS gear Rawr says HoW should be used 2nd to last for the most dps. Currently with T8, it is best to use HoW first, but maybe that is because of 2T8 bonus.

This really is only natural because HoW scales worse then Judgement, Crusader Strike, and Divine Storm. Only Exo is behind really, and that's because of spell hit versus meele hit I'd wager.

I do find it hard to say 22 agi is better then 23 haste... seems to me that agi is good for critical on crusader strike, divine storm, and auto attacks... maybe I missed this in all of the changes, but AGI does not modify chance to critical on a seal proc with a 5 stack of vengeance as well, right?

PS: Enough about the Expertise already, that's horrendously off topic and not pertinent to the majority of our discussion here.