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Old 08/29/09, 5:02 AM   #646
DoomMighter
Glass Joe
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Burning Legion (EU)
ToC 25

I have a few questions :
1) I have got at my equip Wrathstone , I`m using it with Avengig Wrath by macro ,what do you think : to maxymalize my dps schould I push macro at the beggining of the fight against boss when SoV is starting to stack , or wait for 5 stacks of SoV and then turn on Avenging Wrath and Wrathstone macro ?

2) Basic FCFS is : HOW > CS > JUDG. > DS > CONST > EXORC - ulduar . At the ToC 10/25 I`am fighting against Lord Jaraxxus,,who is a Demon ,Twin Val'kyr - undead and Anub'arak - undead . So now my Exo hits critically and make more demage ,what is going on with Holy Wrath - of course I am using it ,but where in rotation is HW and Exo ?,
first rotation is like in ulduar to make Exo instant ,and then how it goes ? :
EXorc > HW >HOW > CS > JUDG. > DS > CONST ?

Last edited by DoomMighter : 08/29/09 at 12:48 PM.

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Old 08/29/09, 5:28 AM   #647
Junlex
Piston Honda
 
Worgen Warrior
 
Anachronos (EU)
Originally Posted by DoomMighter View Post
I have a few questions :
I have got at my equip Wrathstone ,and I`m using it with Avengig Wrath by macro ,what do you think : to maxymalize my dps schould I better to start macro it at the beggining of the fight again boss when SoV is starting to stack , or w8 for 5 stacks of SoV and then turn on Avenging Wrath and Wrathstone macro ?
As usual with this type of question, the answer is - by delaying your initial Avenging Wrath by 15 seconds, do you think you'll end up losing an activation entirely? E.g. if a fight lasts 2 minutes 20 seconds, by using AW immediatetely, you can then use it again at 2 minutes, getting a full 40 seconds uptime. If you wait 15 seconds or so to stack your 5 stack, you'd only get 25 second uptime, and the extra damage from waiting for the 5 stack would be more than lost through not getting a full second activation. However if the fight lasted anywhere between 2 minutes 35 seconds and 4 minutes, you'd only get a maximum of 2 avenging wraths off regardless of if you wait 15 seconds at the start or not, so in this case it'd be a gain to wait for the 5 stack to build.

Obviously you can't predict the future exactly, so it's not that easy to judge. In addition, if you do wait 15 seconds to stack your 5 stack, and you haven't taken special measures to prevent it, you'll probably find that if you're using a trinket with a 45 second icd, it'll trigger in the first few seconds and most of the proc won't be stacked with AW.

(The special measure you could take is to switch your trinkets around about 30 seconds before the pull, triggering the timer on the ICD, meanining the trinket with the ICD ought not to proc until 15 seconds after the pull has been made.)

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Old 08/29/09, 7:18 AM   #648
DoomMighter
Glass Joe
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Burning Legion (EU)
Ok. It`s true what you wrote , but as you said its hard to predict the length of fight ,main thing which I would like to know is for example when your fight last 1min. Then you can use your CD only once at fight . So when you`ll use it at the beggining , or when you got 5 stacks ? When fight last more than 4-5 min ,your dps i going to stabilize and changing about -/+50-70 dps ,and then its hard to maximilize it even when you use hero ,so for me the most important thing is to make osom dps at the beggining .
So what do you think about 1min length fight ? - at the beggining ,or after 15s with 5 stacks ?

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Old 08/29/09, 7:37 AM   #649
Junlex
Piston Honda
 
Worgen Warrior
 
Anachronos (EU)
Well in a 60 second fight you're only ever going to get 20 seconds of Avenging Wrath, so you should of course use it after 5 stacks are up. In fact in that case it might be better to wait as long as possible without wasting any of the proc, if you're going to get into Hammer of Wrath range.

Edit: removed stuff about syncing trinkets, as in a 60 second fight by trying to sync trinket icd you're guaranteeing that you'll lose most of the second trinket proc, if not the entirety of it. So I guess it's not that cut and dry - if you don't have a trinket with an ICD proc then you should definitely wait for 5 stack, but if you do have one with a 1k+ ap proc, I don't know if using AW with the AP proc and low stacks would be more dps than waiting for a 5 stack and losing some/all of the AP proc. What Tobrexa says below sounds like the best solution, as long as you don't wait too long and waste some AW time.

Last edited by Junlex : 08/29/09 at 7:46 AM.

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Old 08/29/09, 7:43 AM   #650
Tobrexa
Von Kaiser
 
Human Paladin
 
Kel'Thuzad (EU)
I would even prefer to wait long enough for avenging wrath to cover most, if not all of the <20% hp period. In a one minute fight, ICD trinkets should proc twice, and hopefully fall the second time into AW.

Go tell the Spartans, passerby:
That here, by Spartan law, we lie.

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Old 08/29/09, 12:24 PM   #651
Largetuna
Glass Joe
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Hyjal
Regarding the 1 minute fight/AW discussion, how do haste potions change the dynamic, if at all? I assume it would be DPS maximizing to pop a haste pot right before entering combat to help build stacks faster then pop another with AW at the same time to last for the last 20 seconds of the fight, as discussed above.

However, assuming one does not wish to burn two haste pots on an inconsequential one minute fight (heck, I'm not sure I want to waste even one), when would be the best time in the one minute fight to pop your AW/haste pot/(trinket) macro? At the outset to build the stacks up faster and have more time on the boss at 5 stacks? Or would it still be preferable to pop the macro for the last 20 seconds of the fight, despite the slightly less time at 5 stacks?

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Old 08/29/09, 12:41 PM   #652
Psykewne
Von Kaiser
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Talnivarr (EU)
Originally Posted by Largetuna View Post
Regarding the 1 minute fight/AW discussion, how do haste potions change the dynamic, if at all? I assume it would be DPS maximizing to pop a haste pot right before entering combat to help build stacks faster then pop another with AW at the same time to last for the last 20 seconds of the fight, as discussed above.

However, assuming one does not wish to burn two haste pots on an inconsequential one minute fight (heck, I'm not sure I want to waste even one), when would be the best time in the one minute fight to pop your AW/haste pot/(trinket) macro? At the outset to build the stacks up faster and have more time on the boss at 5 stacks? Or would it still be preferable to pop the macro for the last 20 seconds of the fight, despite the slightly less time at 5 stacks?
This is similar to the bloodlust discussion to be honest.

Either you get more time with 5 stacks popping it at the start meaning more swings with 5 stacks up due to time.
Or you you get more swings in less time with 5 stacks up. When you compare what is happening with real numbers you'll find the damage is very close to similar. This does not account for the seal procs from your instant attacks (CS and DS) however. Assuming you have a normal stack time of around 10 seconds you'll use DS once (since it's cooldown is 10 seconds and it won't be the first thing you cast) and CS about 3 times roughly(4 second cooldown and assuming you use it within 2 seconds of starting to build stacks which is 99% gonna happen). By this logic if you drop your stack time to say 8 seconds (i think that's being generous for the haste pot's effect since its worth 15% haste~) then you have the potential for the instant attacks to fall slightly different (ie. the third CS may land after the 5th stack depending on rotation, and also other attacks during the first 10 seconds will land with slightly more stacks up). This means from this straight vantage using the speed pot early may indeed be better damage since haste has no real impact on our post-20% damage skill.

Now with avenging wrath included things are a bit different however. Since in a minute your 20 seconds of avenging wrath will always be with 5 stacks up, this means that the pot will gain value during the avenging wrath period. Pretty much you're going to be looking at very little difference although my gut would say that running accurate numbers would find popping it during avenging wrath best due to the more exact stacking nature it has, and also the assumption you'll be proccing trinkets (or having ones with 45 second internal CD) proccing during the avenging wrath period too which will again increase the speed pot value during that period.

Ultimately in 1 minute the greater impact on your dps will be how many crits you get rather than when you use cooldowns however so in practice unless you do ALOT of repeats you'd be hard pressed to produce real results that would prove or disprove either way, also the nature of the fight has alot to do with how you apply cooldowns, especialy ones for stacking your dot quicker. (ie. movement etc...)

This is similar to stacking effects with bloodlust and the arguement about popping bloodlust sub-20% having little to no impact on dps.

Sorry that it's a bit rambly but rather than produce the data I chose to explain it as best I could in as much detail as I could.

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Old 08/29/09, 2:58 PM   #653
PhattyDuncan
Glass Joe
 
PhattyDuncan's Avatar
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Anvilmar
Has "Hand Mounted Pyro Rockets" and "Hyperspeed Accelerators" been completely explored yet for which is better for a ret paladin?

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Old 08/29/09, 3:30 PM   #654
Psykewne
Von Kaiser
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Talnivarr (EU)
Originally Posted by PhattyDuncan View Post
Has "Hand Mounted Pyro Rockets" and "Hyperspeed Accelerators" been completely explored yet for which is better for a ret paladin?
This was discussed a bit further back and basically on pure numbers hand mounted rocket seems to be better (as indicated by rawr), however that doesn't account for all the possible buff stacking you can perform with the accelerator or the utility of being able to stack your dot faster and such.

I think the conclusion was that you can basically pick and choose as they each have their own charms. Ideally you could argue carrying mats to switch between them for different fights and such if you wanted to go nuts.

I myself use the accelerator but i dabbled with the rocket as well and while it's easier to observe the damage from the rocket, I've found the accelrator to be somewhat invaluable in certain fights. (The main one being algalon where I want a full stack asap so that when I do and pop avenging wrath I can rely on having a good length on my internal cooldown trinket procs as well since we bloodlust right at the start of the fight, I also like it for ensuring I can get a full stack and also have enough time to get full duration on avenging wrath during brain phases - most useful in the dragon room where there is less time on the brain)

I'd suggest trying out both and going with what you like, accelerator definately requires more work to get the best returns, but it's got some interesting niche use on some fights.

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Old 08/29/09, 3:51 PM   #655
agoat
Glass Joe
 
Gnome Priest
 
Firetree
I prefer rockets. Something to fill one of our dead GCDs or as a dps button to push while moving. Last time I checked rawr they were both real close to being even.

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Old 08/29/09, 4:17 PM   #656
Haelfdane
Von Kaiser
 
Human Paladin
 
Cenarion Circle
Assuming that the SoV using smallest stack for seal proc issue is a bug, is it worthwhile trying to come up with ways to work around that or is there hope that it will be hotfixed soon enough to make that a non-issue? I am mostly tanking in my raid, but we always have at least one ret, and for some fights I am one of them. We recently had three ret in addition to myself and I was cringing as they were ordered to keep swapping targets and tried my best not to HoTR around their primary target.

So anyway, do we have hope that this will be short lived and not a major issue or do raid leaders need to be convinced to help us work around it?

Edit: If this was answered already, I sincerely appologize, the only bug confirmation I saw was the T9 2piece with RV.

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Old 08/29/09, 5:35 PM   #657
MisanduV
Glass Joe
 
Human Paladin
 
Alterac Mountains
Originally Posted by agoat View Post
I prefer rockets. Something to fill one of our dead GCDs or as a dps button to push while moving. Last time I checked rawr they were both real close to being even.
The Pyro-Rockets are actually off the GCD.

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Old 08/29/09, 7:37 PM   #658
Psykewne
Von Kaiser
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Talnivarr (EU)
Originally Posted by Haelfdane View Post
Assuming that the SoV using smallest stack for seal proc issue is a bug, is it worthwhile trying to come up with ways to work around that or is there hope that it will be hotfixed soon enough to make that a non-issue? I am mostly tanking in my raid, but we always have at least one ret, and for some fights I am one of them. We recently had three ret in addition to myself and I was cringing as they were ordered to keep swapping targets and tried my best not to HoTR around their primary target.

So anyway, do we have hope that this will be short lived and not a major issue or do raid leaders need to be convinced to help us work around it?

Edit: If this was answered already, I sincerely appologize, the only bug confirmation I saw was the T9 2piece with RV.
Well until it's fixed, if and when it's a concern in raids simplest solution is for the prot to switch to SoR I guess, until the threat nerf next patch, most of the time it's not going to be much impact on anything, worst thing is the loss of the expertise from the glyph i guess, but overall that's the only sensible and easy solution. The complex solution is for the prot to be very smart with the usage of HotR, but that to me seems overly cumbersome and limiting and possibly going to cause more trouble when trying to manipulate multiple adds etc..

To be honest although i'm aware of the issue as is my prot paladin, i haven't noticed it cause much hurt so although it's a real issue i'm not sure it's on the level of destroying our effectiveness in encounters to the point it is that noticeable. To be honest, depending on the fight, the issue of having a ret target switching is perhaps a higher concern as there's alot of fights with adds where having a ret switching to them (unless we're talking 10 mans where your number of dps players is quite limited) is not going to be all that effective.

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Old 08/30/09, 10:12 AM   #659
cannadrys
Von Kaiser
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Mug'thol
SoV bug is being looked into.

Soure: MMO-Champion BlueTracker - [BUG] SoV damage with multiple paladins.

Re: [BUG] SoV damage with multiple paladins.
Thanks for the report, we'll look into this.

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Old 08/31/09, 11:14 PM   #660
Blackwater
Glass Joe
 
Blackwater's Avatar
 
Dwarf Paladin
 
Elune
I am almost at the point where I can get the 4 piece T8 bonus. I have the Helm, pants and head, just need the shoulders. I picked up Chestplate of the Frostborn Hero today and said "Hey more str stam, loose some crit but gain haste". Now I am wondering if I should just keep the Conqueror's Aegis Battleplate and not worry about it.. Decisions Decisions. The Guide says Crit is better than haste, and If I wear the new chest, my crit drops down to about 29.20%. So is crit ALWAYS better than haste for us, and get gear that is +crit instead of + haste ?

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