Some interesting findings on how HV's damage works:
*AW has no affect on the DOT if it is already running.
*Procs such as Greatness or berserking WILL increase DOT damage, but only for their duration.
*AW will affect the DOT if you use it first then attack, but once AW wears off, damage returns to normal.
Go ahead and try it out. I saw suspicious behavior when I AW'd in the new instance and stuff didn't work correctly, and I've checked it on a few different targets now. This doesn't mean much on its own, it just means that AW won't affect all of our damage, only some.
Most likely HV recalculates every attack it is refreshed. If your AP/Spellpower changed between attacks then the DoT will alter. AW doesn't directly alter AP or Spellpower, so it probably falls through a loophole and fails to update. Since the first application (up to 5 stacks) absolutely must calculate, that's probably why it picks up AW properly.
I suspect if you have an on-use trinket which increases AP bound to AW then it should increase and then gain the 20%. Additionally, if AW has increased your ticks, it's very likely that a tick after AW wore off but before the next DoT refresh would still be at the enhanced AW rate.
In current gear it's a loss (failure to gain) of about 75 DPS for those 20 seconds.
Rock: "We're sub-standard DPS. Nerf Paper, Scissors are fine."
Paper: "OMG, WTF, Scissors!"
Scissors: "Rock is OP and Paper are QQers. We need PvP buffs."
I did some testing, found out something interesting ( bug ? ), which is Prot paladin is getting the Seal hit from Judgement but Ret is not. So I unlearn my ret talent tree , then with 0 talent SoV still didnt proc from Judgement.
Next thing , I unlearn my protection talent tree and do each test after I get each new talent in protection tree. After I spend 1 point in Judgements of the Just , Seal starts proc from Judgement.
I don't know if this is bug or not. But I think the effect of your Judgements of the Just ( which is a debuff in 3.2) proc Seal from Judgement.
Minor nitpick with the raid buff section, mutilate rogues can also provide the 3% crit debuff (if they spec into it, like I did)
Overall a very nice article. Switched main from ret pal to rogue half year ago and focused on being prot for a while. Have just recently obtained 4pt t8 and decided to give ret a try again.
Here's my question, will it be favorable to go 2/2 vindication using the 5/11/55 talents (for casual since it's an alt anyway)? If so, which talent should I be dropping to pick it up?
Here's my question, will it be favorable to go 2/2 vindication using the 5/11/55 talents (for casual since it's an alt anyway)? If so, which talent should I be dropping to pick it up?
As is stated elsewhere in the thread, the ultimate spec is going to depend on your raid comp more than anything. If there isn't a source for a fully talented AP buff, nor a source for a fully talented AP debuff, I'd advocate dropping one point from imp might. If you have a consistent moonkin, you could drop the point from swift ret instead.
With the change to Judgment not proccing SoV, how much estimated dps loss will we be incurring from the dps gain we have going int o 3.2? I'm assuming somewhere in the 150ish range?
With the change to Judgment not proccing SoV, how much estimated dps loss will we be incurring from the dps gain we have going int o 3.2? I'm assuming somewhere in the 150ish range?
200.
My average SoV proc fully raid buffed is 1800 and Judgement has a 9 second effective cooldown. My sheet with my gear (219/226 mix) showed a 700 dps sustained gain on the last PTR build so I would expect a 500 dps gain now. Our new libram is massively better if you are only PVE (like me, for example) and don't have the arena one so that helps also. Given that in the first 12 seconds of stacking your dps should be 250 worse than SoB on average it will take until 18 seconds for your damage to get up to 3.1 standards on a single target.
We do have the advantage of starting more quickly now though since we can't have the situation of CS crit, SoB crit, AA crit, SoB crit, get aggro and die. If you trust your tank to make decent aggro your spike damage is less and as such you can start swinging slightly sooner. This might even be enough to zero the equation compared to 3.1 standards because even starting one second sooner you end up pulling ahead by second 12 and cruising to 500 dps extra from there.
Before drawing any conclusion about SoC and SoR for trash I will need to see what the actual intended behaviour of those Judgements with regards to proccing seals is. With current SoR double proccing and SoC not proccing SoR is the hands down winner, but when they get fixed one way or the other I will post here to give you all the math.
Hey guys. With the new patch, Judgement of the Wise now reads that we should be getting 25% mana returned on judgements. If you look back to page 3 to Rasputin's combat log, you'll notice his mana returned from Judgements of the Wise returned 1099 mana. This appears to still be 20% of base mana. Shouldn't the mana returned be more around the 1350 mark?
Some napkin maths:
1099*4 (if it was 25%) = 4396
1099*5 (20%) = 5495
My understanding that our base mana pool is closer to 5495 than 4396 so my conclusion is that our mana return from JotW is still only 20%? I also noticed this mana return from last nights 10 man Ulduar run. Could anyone else confirm please?
I think a good question right now is how many adds does a boss fight have to have in order for seal of righteousness to beat out seal of vengeance? Examples of fights when this could come into play would be kologarn or the first fight of crusader's colliseum where there' a couple adds but not a large amount (counting the arms on kolo).
Even though Hand of Reckoning only does damage when its target isn't you, there are still many times you can use it. The most common case is on mobs that don't have an aggro list, which the Yogg fight is great for with the brain, brain room tentactles and Yogg in p3. It can also be used on mobs where you don't care you have aggro, one example of this is on the Thorim arena. Its a free ~3k damage (since its off GCD) when you can use it, so make the most of it. It can make up to as much of 6% of my damage at times.
I'm not sure exactly why HoR is behaving as it does, but it is indeed very useful. Mine is also hitting for far more than 2-3k. Going off Recount for tonight, over 60 Hand of Reckonings(amusingly typoed to Hand of Rekoning), I have numbers far out of whack with my actual AP. I'm not checking it as I cast it but I'm fairly sure I'm never spiking to 20k+ AP, as an 11k crit would imply.
Anyone else getting massive HoR numbers?
edit: stupid forgot the crit modifier, 10kish AP is much more reasonable.
Even though Hand of Reckoning only does damage when its target isn't you, there are still many times you can use it. The most common case is on mobs that don't have an aggro list, which the Yogg fight is great for with the brain, brain room tentactles and Yogg in p3. It can also be used on mobs where you don't care you have aggro, one example of this is on the Thorim arena. Its a free ~3k damage (since its off GCD) when you can use it, so make the most of it. It can make up to as much of 6% of my damage at times.
HoR scales very well with our primary stat, Strength. If I'm not mistaken, it should be more or less on par (if not better, depending on gear, due to its ability to crit and better scaling) with Consecration DPS-wise in raids.
And while we're discussing examples: Could it be used against XT's heart as well?
I'm not sure exactly why HoR is behaving as it does, but it is indeed very useful. Mine is also hitting for far more than 2-3k. Going off Recount for tonight, over 60 Hand of Reckonings(amusingly typoed to Hand of Rekoning), I have numbers far out of whack with my actual AP. I'm not checking it as I cast it but I'm fairly sure I'm never spiking to 20k+ AP, as an 11k crit would imply.
Anyone else getting massive HoR numbers?
I have gotten ~8k crits, but my gear is far from the best since Ret is technically my offspec. Remember that it will get increased by all percentage increases, so you can't just use the AP formula for it. Also it does 50% AP as damage so you would only need ~10k AP for that, which isn't that high with procs.
Yes, XT heart is another mob you can use it one. It works even if the target is immune to taunts, you just have to not be its current target.
Those who are running 5-man heroics for Emblems of Conquest (of whom there are many, just not necessarily among the hard-mode crowd) will find Hand of Reckoning to be extremely useful in some instances/boss fights (basically, any time there are adds tankable by Retribution Paladins). Also, if you have a Paladin tank, you may be able to coordinate Hand of Reckoning usage so that the Protection Paladin uses his last to pick up threat.
It [Hand of Reckoning] works even if the target is immune to taunts, you just have to not be its current target.
I'm confused. Everything I remember from the PTR thread seemed to agree that the damage didn't fire if the taunt wasn't applied, to stop Rets getting extra damage on players and taunt immune bosses. Did something change between PTR and Live, or are XT's heart and Yogg-Saron's brain just exceptions to the rule?
I'm confused. Everything I remember from the PTR thread seemed to agree that the damage didn't fire if the taunt wasn't applied, to stop Rets getting extra damage on players and taunt immune bosses. Did something change between PTR and Live, or are XT's heart and Yogg-Saron's brain just exceptions to the rule?
The tentacles on Yogg pop up Immune when you taunt them, but it still does damage. I haven't thoroughly tested it against more mobs outside of that encounter though.
I put preliminary support of HoR into Rawr. For my character if I am able to use HoR on cooldown I gain around 700 dps.
Reckoning works on: XT's Heart, Mimiron Phase 2 (Amazing DPS Gain), Charged Sphere's, Yogg Tentacles. Not sure because I havn't done razorscale this patch week whether it works when it'd be tied down in phase 1 but I'm sure it should.
I was a little late in noticing that 3.2 has been released, so yesterday I spent some time fiddling around in Rawr.. The results for me appeared to show (while wearing gear I had already reconfigured to take advantage of Vengeance Seal/Glyph) that swapping seal to Righteousness and Glyph to Exo, it resulted in a net dps gain of around 50, even with my exp now being well below cap. I tried swapping in the Exo Glyph while still using SoV which netted a dps loss of around 30. So it seemed to be showing that simply using SoR was an 80~dps increase over SoV.
Could this just be Rawr's early calculations, or could in fact Righteousness win out against Vengeance?
Final thought, seeing as SoV scales off weapon damage after the initial dot stack, I assume that it would eventually surpass SoR, but at my current gear level (226) and weapon level (232) SoR appears to be higher.
Reckoning works on: XT's Heart, Mimiron Phase 2 (Amazing DPS Gain), Charged Sphere's, Yogg Tentacles. Not sure because I havn't done razorscale this patch week whether it works when it'd be tied down in phase 1 but I'm sure it should.
On Razorscale, since he has a real aggro table, it may stop dealing damage if you're #1 on threat.
Add General Vezax, Saronite Animus, Yogg-Saron, Brain of Yogg-Saron, and Mimiron P4 chest section to that list. It's quite frankly ridiculous in its current form. On General hard mode it provided a ~20% damage increase, isn't on a GCD, and can be macroed into all of our current abilities.
Although not "real" DPS, you can cheese some extra numbers by having it macroed to taunt Living Constellations or Collapsing Stars (not recommended) in Algalon.
Hot fix: incoming. Until then, I have a second bar set up for "special" encounters.
I was a little late in noticing that 3.2 has been released, so yesterday I spent some time fiddling around in Rawr.. The results for me appeared to show (while wearing gear I had already reconfigured to take advantage of Vengeance Seal/Glyph) that swapping seal to Righteousness and Glyph to Exo, it resulted in a net dps gain of around 50, even with my exp now being well below cap. I tried swapping in the Exo Glyph while still using SoV which netted a dps loss of around 30. So it seemed to be showing that simply using SoR was an 80~dps increase over SoV.
Could this just be Rawr's early calculations, or could in fact Righteousness win out against Vengeance?
Final thought, seeing as SoV scales off weapon damage after the initial dot stack, I assume that it would eventually surpass SoR, but at my current gear level (226) and weapon level (232) SoR appears to be higher.
I guess you didn't activate the "3.2 mode" in the options tab, did you? This could explain your dps loss, when switching over to Seal of Vengeance.
Reckoning works on: XT's Heart, Mimiron Phase 2 (Amazing DPS Gain), Charged Sphere's, Yogg Tentacles. Not sure because I havn't done razorscale this patch week whether it works when it'd be tied down in phase 1 but I'm sure it should.
I can confirm it works on Razorscale when she's grounded. It also works like a charm on Kologarn's arms, and cubed NPC's on Hodir.
Hand of Reckoning also works on Kologarn's arms and the iceblocks on Hodir. [edit] Damnit, beaten to the punch.
It does -not- work on players under any circumstances.
On another note, is anyone else experiencing some odd damage on Judgement of Vengeance? With a five stack up, my crits fluctuate wildly from 6k to 13-14k in PvE whereas in PvP I have yet to go above 3.5k on an un-resilienced target. It just seems odd and extremely inconsistent.
On another note, is anyone else experiencing some odd damage on Judgement of Vengeance? With a five stack up, my crits fluctuate wildly from 6k to 13-14k in PvE whereas in PvP I have yet to go above 3.5k on an un-resilienced target. It just seems odd and extremely inconsistent.
Yes, I experienced this last night on both the Northrend Beast fight and in Ulduar afterwards. With Avenging Wrath up, my crits varied between 7,5k and 12kish (yes, I actually saw a crit as low as 7,5k with AW up). I know that a lot of it depends on AP procs (Berserking, trinkets, etc), but I have never seen such scaling before. The biggest are often as big as our old JoBs back in Naxxramas, but the smallest are way below our old JoBs.
Generally, my single target DPS seemed very inconsistent last night, having a difference of around 1k DPS between the highest and lowest (on the same fight).
"If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles.
If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat.
If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle." - Sun Tzu, Art of War
Aura mastery has no scaling with talents modifying auras. It stacks but doesn't scale. Imp LoH was significantly weakened in 3.2. It no longer stacks with inspiration and ancestral fortitude which makes it's previous ~22-24% damage reduction on physical damage worth 11.11% not even the 20% that it would appear to be.
08/05/09, 2:19 PM
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