Marrowgar: SoV even on heroic
Deathwhisper: SoC or SoV Some people may use SoC for adds or SoV to burn one target, or just burn boss 50/50 split
Gunship: Maybe we were doing it wrong, but when we were killing the Mage on the enemy ship the other targets weren't in range, but if you did get one other target in range (not counting Muradin/Horde Equivalent, that is padding dps) SoC
Saurfang: SoV
Other bosses (I never did the PTR, so I don't know the other bosses that well)
Dreamwalker: SoC
Professor: SoV
Sindragosa: SoV
Total
SoV 4.5 SoC 2.5
Level 82's have 5.4 to 5.5 dodge.
e: Added Deathwhisper target variations
Last edited by frmorrison : 12/09/09 at 4:44 PM.
Millions of words are written annually purporting to tell how to beat the races, whereas the best possible advice on the subject is found in the three monosyllables: 'Do not try.'
I agree SoC is the ideal DPS seal for Gunship as well as Dreamwalker. On Deathwhisper I can see us staying on her shield full time. You have to remember that adds are generally not level 83, so you need far less expertise in order to push dodges from behind off the table. This does mean that you can squeeze out a bit more DPS by gearing for that lower expertise cap for a specific encounter.
I picked up Bryntroll tonight. I must say, this weapon is crying for a nerf. Yes, this is a test dummy, but the results speak for themselves: WoW Meters Online - Combatlog Replay
I had much better results as a full-time single target DPS on Deathwhisper using SoV than on the adds using SoC. With SoC on adds, even if I started out attacking the caster (adherant), I kept running into problems with SoC chaining to Fanatics that hadn't been fully picked up by the tank yet, which would turn and kill me. Also, you might think that doing a mix of magical and physical damage would be an advantage for killing the reanimated adds which are immune to one or the other, but in the end it just means that you do bad DPS to all of them. One great thing about DPSing Deathwhisper in phase 1 is that she is tauntable, but doesn't attack based on her aggro table, so you can spam Hand of Reckoning all you want (just have to really watch out when phase 2 is about to start, and either bubble or run away)
On the Bryntroll topic, I also got one last night and the proc is incredible. It was generally around 6% of my DPS on single target fights (sorry don't have a log posted at the moment, can only share anecdotal evidence)
Regarding dodge on level 82 which I mentioned earlier, Satrina from tankspot says 22 expertise, however by looking at defense there should be a 5.4 dodge chance. That means a 21.6 expertise (178 expertise rating) cap for level 82. Since you need 4 more expertise to cap versus a boss, I would say SoV glyph is still best (assuming you needed the expertise).
This points toward having more expertise gear than the 3.2 lists had (they aimed towards 16 expertise) for the BiS lists.
Millions of words are written annually purporting to tell how to beat the races, whereas the best possible advice on the subject is found in the three monosyllables: 'Do not try.'
There is some cursory information coming out about Deathbringer's Will. The information I have suggests that the ICD is 2 minutes. The proc is random. Each class has a set of three possible procs.
Seems like it's a fairly disappointing trinket. However there is one more hope of an upgrade out there from Professor Putricide - Tiny Abomination in a Jar.
You can get any of the 6 procs whenever it happens. Each buff lasts 30 seconds, with a 45 second Internal CD.
On the dummy got +600 str 4 times in a row, then the Dwarf (600 crit) 4 times, then a Vyrkul twice So far I've only gotten Crit, Strength, and Haste, and I got the 1200 Ap one once.
Order of commoness:
+Crit (Will of the Iron Dwarves)
+Strength
+Haste
+AP
+Agi
+Arp
Not sure if it uses my top 3 stats over the other 3.
Deathwhisper SoC for adds/SoV for burn phase about 75/25 split
This works, but I dont see Ret being a very efficient use for adds in this fight as they have immunities either physical damage or magical damage. Effectively this shears our damage output.
Retadins would be more useful on the boss full time as would enhance shamans and mut rogues.
Also, someone mentioned that Rawr didn't have all the items implemented. I pulled most of them by doing the "Load Possible Upgrades from the Armory" function and it seemed to grab most everything. A lot of the gemable items don't have set bonuses yet from the armory and you can always add something manually to the database, but this gets most of the work done.
It does seem those classes are better on the Deathwhisper on paper, but you want those adds down quick so you don't get overwhelmed. The assignment would be group dependent, so is partly outside the context of this thread.
However, more weight should be given to SoV because one poster said they had to use that Seal to prevent AoE aggro pulling. Also, I recall the adds loss the melee/magic immunity after some time.
Millions of words are written annually purporting to tell how to beat the races, whereas the best possible advice on the subject is found in the three monosyllables: 'Do not try.'
Retadins would be more useful on the boss full time as would enhance shamans and mut rogues.
As would DK - a good portion of their damage is also magical. So basically what we're saying is everyone other than warriors and cats are more useful on the boss. That doesn't lead to dead adds. Unfortunately some of these non-ideal classes will have to assist with adds.
It's the typical complaint of any class on a boss. You're better if you don't have to move and can just DPS your target, a la Patchwerk. Having melee or ranged swap targets requires re-stacking necessary debuffs or ramp ups (like our SoV). See Snobolds on Beasts, Infernals and Mistress on Jaraxxus and adds on Anub (focus or AOE) - all are a loss of DPS due to target swapping. Swapping target happens on a great number of fights - it's something Blizzard likes. Someone's going to have to draw the short straw.
Not to dispute my fine colleague Tarja, but I find it somewhat ironic that the fact we're heavy AOE (Cons, DS, SoC (if used) make up a significant portion of our total DPS) is somehow a drawback in killing adds on Deathwhisper. I hate to say it, but if our standard attack routine is pulling threat, the tanks need to step up to the plate. It's effectively no different than a trash pack - multiple mobs at once that must all be tanked. Our DPS on said trash pack should be identical to that on the cultists/adherents.
Regarding the raised adds physical/magic reductions, sadly we're screwed. I'd say kill normal adds, then go punch the boss waiting for more while pure magic or pure physical hit the raised.
Rock: "We're sub-standard DPS. Nerf Paper, Scissors are fine."
Paper: "OMG, WTF, Scissors!"
Scissors: "Rock is OP and Paper are QQers. We need PvP buffs."
I can confirm the bug with VoA and Divine Storm not hitting.
Also, the 3% damage bug loss seems fixed when using non-Ret aura.
Last edited by frmorrison : 12/09/09 at 10:15 PM.
Millions of words are written annually purporting to tell how to beat the races, whereas the best possible advice on the subject is found in the three monosyllables: 'Do not try.'
Actually I haven't got any threat issues using Command on Deathwhisper's adds, also it seems that we can do 100% damage to ALL adds mostly.
Maybe it depends on the tank too. but our prot pally could solve it pretty easily, while the Feral, and DKtank had some problems with it.
It does seem those classes are better on the Deathwhisper on paper, but you want those adds down quick so you don't get overwhelmed. The assignment would be group dependent, so is partly outside the context of this thread.
This pretty much sums up the discussion of whether a Ret Paladin should be on Deathwhisper or on the adds. The answer is something each raid group has to determine for themselves really. Every DPS class will be better on the stationary boss than short-lived adds, but someone has to take one for the team and be on the adds. I still think that Ret Paladins have one of the largest disparities between usefulness on the boss and usefulness on adds, since Hand of Reckoning adds significant extra DPS on the boss, and our unintentional AOE dps can in fact be a liability compared to other classes who can immediately open up on the caster adds without needing to wait for the tank to establish aggro.
But that's just something that each raid group will need to optimize for themselves. For the best optimization, one should also consider which debuffs are needed on the boss, and we don't bring much there (only 3% crit if you don't have Totem of Wrath, and JoL/JoW which have dubious value)
I do believe that it is all about your tanks. So far (on Reg) my tanks have had little problem on holding aggro, and if I ever aggroed anything, I just resorted to a quick Self Hand of Salvation to avoid becoming a stain on the floor.
I would also add that our Repetance CD is just perfect to dps the right hand side adds (2 caster per spawn side) as if it is timed right, you can CC one of the caster adds while your tank picks up the other caster and melee on every spawn. Having a DK or two on that side for Death Grip is very useful as well.
Got a bug here that I'd like tested/confirmed - in VoA25, DS was doing nothing against the 3 boss giants. It was doing damage as usual against everything else tonight (the non-boss giant trash, everything that I noticed in ICC), but DS did zero damage to koralon et al. Used the CD, ate the mana, even hit an emalon add... no damage to the boss. I don't have a log to support this sadly, but I'm wondering if anyone else has seen this behavior anywhere else, before it's added to the bugs section.
As for non-bug observations, I find myself wondering if it might be worthwhile to expertise cap thru gear alone, without the SoV glyph, due to the nature of several ICC fights. Depending on your guilds' strategy on some bosses, you might be unable to use SoV reliably or at all, or be subject to quite a bit more seal swapping than we are used to. Marrowgar normal sure you can just sit on him and take the damage, but in heroic I'd imagine that you will be seeing SoV fall off more often than not when he whirlwinds. Same story with deathwhisper and her adds - on normal they are pretty easy, on heroic you'll need to actually focus/kill them, but they don't have enough hp for SoV usage. Gunship is also in the same boat (HEH BOAT) where SoC is superior for most/all of it.
Also completely unrelated, our mut rogues were stomping the rest of our dps tonight in ICC with a solid 1k lead on anyone else. Even running on all cylinders (sup undead instance) I'm peaking at ~9.5k on Saurfang. I thought the gap between classes was supposed to be closer than ever in 3.3?
Also confirmed and apparantly Warriors are having the same problem:
I have also had the same problem with Shaman totems in the Faction Champions encounter. When I have a totem targeted my Divine Storm will not hit it.
But that's intended, innit? Divine Storm isn't a targeted ability and therefore it will make no difference whether you target a totem or not, it won't get hit by an aoe spell.
But that's intended, innit? Divine Storm isn't a targeted ability and therefore it will make no difference whether you target a totem or not, it won't get hit by an aoe spell.
Incorrect. DS has a specific target, then will hit 3 other targets. The specific target receives the seal proc (for SoV), the other 3 hits do not. For SoC all are supposed to receive a single proc, no cleave.
Rock: "We're sub-standard DPS. Nerf Paper, Scissors are fine."
Paper: "OMG, WTF, Scissors!"
Scissors: "Rock is OP and Paper are QQers. We need PvP buffs."
i somehow dont get it
so can you explain me then why DS doesnt hit the snobolds even if there are SoV stacks on it?
just getting confused now
if i'm talkin bout something completely different pls delete or ignore my post
i somehow dont get it
so can you explain me then why DS doesnt hit the snobolds even if there are SoV stacks on it?
just getting confused now
if i'm talkin bout something completely different pls delete or ignore my post
Divine Storm is supposed to hit the snobalds if one of them is targetted. They are designed not to take cleave damage so if you are on Gormok or any other snobald, the remaining wont take the damage, but Gormok should.
The problem is that people are targetting items and they hit divine storm and the target is not taking any damage from it, where it should. The other problem is that Divine Storm is not working as intended in VOA? I don't know too much about that bug.
I would like to put out a request to all raiding Ret paladins who have a lot of emblems of frost around: Please help us test the 2p t10 bonus so we can get our models (rawr and spreadsheets) working correctly. Particularly if you were one of the lucky few who got a ton of emblems of frost by accident from 5 mans I would appreciate you helping us test. This testing will help tremendously in telling us what our stat weights should be and also letting us figure out how to value various glyph options.
You don't have to keep the t10, just buy 2 pieces, equip them, test for 10 minutes and sell them back if you want. What we need you to do is as follows:
Note, during each test do it 20 times or until you confirm that a particular attack does proc the DS reset. Once you confirm it works no further testing is really necessary.
Face away from the target dummy. Cast DS and see if it resets its own cooldown.
Face about 90 degrees away from the target dummy so you can hit it with CS but autoattacks are not going off. (Yes, you can do this, just find the right angle) Cast DS, then hit CS.
Face away from the target dummy again and cast DS then Judgement.
Now cast DS while out of range of the dummy. Walk in and autoattack to confirm that autoattack resets the CD. If it doesn't my mind will officially explode, but we should be certain.
Lastly we need to test seals. This is much more complicated because it will actually require a lot of data to do a statistical analysis to see if seals procs contribute to resetting the DS cooldown. Basically I would want you to cast DS on the cooldown and autoattack with Command and Vengeance/Corruption active. Do this for 4 minutes exactly and then either upload the combat log or post a pic of Recount or just tell me how many DS casts you got in that 4 mins. Testing both seals independently would be valuable.
(Edit: for this last one please also include your modified weapon speed in the data.)
Thanks for your help in advance. We also need to know what parts of the seal damage are affected by 4p t10, so if you get to that point please do test and let us know if it affects Seal, SoV/C dot, and Judgement damage.
Divine Storm is supposed to hit the snobalds if one of them is targetted. They are designed not to take cleave damage so if you are on Gormok or any other snobald, the remaining wont take the damage, but Gormok should.
The problem is that people are targetting items and they hit divine storm and the target is not taking any damage from it, where it should. The other problem is that Divine Storm is not working as intended in VOA? I don't know too much about that bug.
it doesnt hit the snobolds at all (sry edit: should have clarified... doesnt hit even if targetet) and yes of course it does hit gormok if you have a snobold targetet
if i read the tooltip right it is an aoe within 8 yards on 4 targets wich is capable of proccing seals (and SoV only procs if there is a stack on it) right? so if i got it right if there are more than 4 targets there is a chance it doesnt hit the mob in your target or am i wrong?
I'll second Redcape's request. Remember you have 1.5 hrs to return badge items for refund if you don't enchant/gem them.
Additionally, could some folks PM me new base, naked, untalented L80 stats for the various races? They did some minor tweaks in 3.3 and I'd like to adjust my data. Specifically: Str, Agi, Int, Stam, AP, Health, Mana, Melee Crit, and Spell Crit.
Rock: "We're sub-standard DPS. Nerf Paper, Scissors are fine."
Paper: "OMG, WTF, Scissors!"
Scissors: "Rock is OP and Paper are QQers. We need PvP buffs."
If no Rets were fortunate enough to exploit the Frost Emblem bug, two piece T10 from shoulders and gloves should be possible the week before the Plagueworks are released (December 29th).
Divine Storm is supposed to hit the snobalds if one of them is targetted. They are designed not to take cleave damage so if you are on Gormok or any other snobald, the remaining wont take the damage, but Gormok should.
The problem is that people are targetting items and they hit divine storm and the target is not taking any damage from it, where it should. The other problem is that Divine Storm is not working as intended in VOA? I don't know too much about that bug.
No that isn't an issue. Divine Storm is an AoE it does not require a target to be cast and will not necessarily hit your main target given the amount of adds. So yes on things that are immune to AoE DS is useless the only reason it procs seal hits on our main target is because our main target has our DoT on them. Not if you have been testing that shows DS will always hit main target, it is possilbe that DS might favor Targets with our DoT on them to make sure it his our main.
The whole thing of things like totems being immmune to DS even when target. I'm sorry but I believe that is working as intended. DS is not a cleave procing from our initial target it is a 360 AoE (Short range) that can proc seal pending seal of use and DoT on targets.
I got a response from a tester for the 2 piece t 10 bonus, and the results are unsurprising: Only white attacks refresh DS. This means that we will certainly be casting more DS than before, but consecrate, HoW and Exorcism will still be cast semi regularly. My new stat weights given my gear (245 across the board pretty much):
Judgement
CS
DS
HoW
Consecration
Exorcism
is the highest dps rotation I could build, which gives me the following ability mix over 300 seconds of combat:
I will be putting out a new version of my spreadsheet fairly shortly with the t10 bonus modeled correctly and some minor improvements/fixes included.
The glyph of Divine Storm (I just can't let it go!) would be providing about 140 healing/sec/target given this rotation while Exorcism provides 38 dps vs. an undead target. Judgement provides 125 dps while Consecrate supplies 104. If you end up with enough passive expertise I think the best arrangement of glyphs is going to be Consecrate, Judgement, Divine Storm. The advantage of this is that you also have expertise properly high enough when swapping to Command instead of being 10 points off if you rely on SoV/C.
The t10 2P is worth 270 dps single target and the t10 4P is worth 350 single target. Obviously the t10 2P is completely ludicrous on multiple targets. Oh, I am looking forward to rocking 7k dps in heroics.
I got a response from a tester for the 2 piece t 10 bonus, and the results are unsurprising: Only white attacks refresh DS.
Do you have any logs? There are other questions to look into. Is there an ICD? Does it proc only off a regular white attack, or can it proc off the hidden SOV swing?
Edit: In addition, those numbers seem REALLY low. 10% more seal and Judgement damage is huge. Perhaps I am just not as aware of the difference between 245 and 258 gear as I thought I was, but for my gear I would expect 4pc to be worth at least 450+ dps.
Last edited by Zurm : 12/12/09 at 5:12 PM.
Formally Xyrm/Zurm, the Ret Pally. Now playing my rogue, Zyrm, more casually with RL friends.
12/09/09, 12:39 PM
Similar Threads
