Retribution: Updated for 3.3 - Page 58

Exemplar · 09/21/09, 9:16 AM

Originally Posted by Velasius

Assuming this issue is fixed in 3.2.2, how much of a DPS increase should we see?

My understanding of the broken mechanic is as follows:
SoV procs (but not JoV) use the lowest current number of stacks on the target.
Edit: JoV uses the highest current number of stacks on the target.

If you have a prot on target A with 5 stacks, you are hitting target B and Divine Storm, you get a 5 stack proc on target A due to the prot's stack (DPS bonus).
Target B dies, you retarget A, melee once. Your stack is at 1, prot at 5. You or prot do anything and seal procs as if at 1 stack (DPS loss). Edit: Judge as if stack at 5 (gain).

So any time anyone using SoV has to (re)build a stack on your target, all of you are negatively impacted. 3.2.2 is supposed to resolve this issue.

The more (re)stacking that occurred, the less DPS you provided. In 3.2.2 DPS is solely based on your own ability to stack and keep it running on your target. So if the other Ret/Prot in your raid were awful and often had less than 5 stacks on your target, you will no longer be penalized for their inability (or they, potentially, for yours). If everyone kept stacks at 5 your change should be negligible.

Junlex · 09/21/09, 11:46 AM

Your summary of the current situation is accurate with a small correction - JoV goes off the highest stack on target, while SoV procs go off the lowest stack on target. So in your example, when target B dies and you switch to target A, you'll immediately get 5 stack judgements, but the protection paladin will see his SoV procs drop until you've established your own 5 stack. So in that specific situation, currently you (the ret) are getting free damage, which won't occur after 3.2.2. But overall, it ought to be a DPS gain. I know personally that when chasing adds around on Jaraxxus and dragging them into the melee cleavefest, I often Hammer of the Righteous a stack onto Jaraxxus and inadvertently gimp my ret paladins' damage for a while.

zamm · 09/21/09, 1:47 PM

The SoV change means that for prot pallies running with a ret their initial threat will be higher as they will be working off their own quickly stacked SoV.

For ret the main real difference will be when running with multiple rets on bosses with running out phases. At the moment if one SoV DoT drops off then all the rets (and prots) are doing lower DPS until all are back to 5 stacks. In 3.2.2 only the ret pally whose DoT dropped off will suffer.

It will also remove the issue of prot pally OTs managing to stick a single DoT proc on the main target (I think HotR does this but it may be another ability), which results in rets in the raid stuck at low SoV DPS until the prot debuff drops off.

Ronark · 09/21/09, 4:39 PM

Originally Posted by zamm

The SoV change means that for prot pallies running with a ret their initial threat will be higher as they will be working off their own quickly stacked SoV.

For ret the main real difference will be when running with multiple rets on bosses with running out phases. At the moment if one SoV DoT drops off then all the rets (and prots) are doing lower DPS until all are back to 5 stacks. In 3.2.2 only the ret pally whose DoT dropped off will suffer.

It will also remove the issue of prot pally OTs managing to stick a single DoT proc on the main target (I think HotR does this but it may be another ability), which results in rets in the raid stuck at low SoV DPS until the prot debuff drops off.

This would be correct. For any Ret that runs with a Protection Paladin MT they will see a slight DPS loss, while the MT will be buffed with greater Threat.

For any Ret that runs with another Ret that cannot retain their own Vengeance stacks, you will see a DPS gain.

For any Ret that runs with another Ret that has no trouble at all stacking and maintaining their Vengeance, you'll see little to no gain nor loss in DPS.

snakzz · 09/22/09, 5:14 AM

Maybe it has been answered here earlier, but didnt find it.

Is the 2 x tier 9 set bonus now fixed on live, or only on the PTRs?

LastMan · 09/22/09, 8:34 AM

Hi guys i've been following this thread very closely every since i starting playing ret paladin and i do have some questions regarding the new 2pc T9 bonus. As this is my 1st post, do let me know if i missed out anything.

I attempted to calculate how much agi/crit is worth to ret paladins given the new 2pc T9 bonus.

Heres the math:

Assuming a RV damage of 6.5% of total dps.

6.5% x Crit chance = % Increase In total dps
6.5% x (0.02174 x Crit Rate x 0.01) = Increase In total dps
% Increase in total dps per crit rating = 6.5 x 0.02174 x 0.01 = 0.0014131%

And then used this compare this result with STR using RAWR.
By changing a +20 str gem to No gem, i get a drop in 2dps per STR (This appears to be consistent throughout different tests, leading me to believe that RAWR assigns a value of 2dps per str)

As such:

Assuming total dps to be 5k

% increase in total dps per STR = 2/5000 = 0.0004%

Unless the math above is completely wrong, I can safely conclude that Crit/agi > STR. (I haven't even factored in the the increase in dps due to more crits for non RV damage). This however only applies if we use the STR dps stat weigh in RAWR.

However a logical conclusion would be that the RAWR model does not model STR increase to total dps very well. Given that, i do believe that STR is indeed our best stat as it increases our total damage of all our attacks including RV. What concerns me is whether we should give a higher stat weigh to AGI/CRIT given out current 2pc T9 bonus. And if so, would leather gear pull ahead of plate gear with our 2pc T9 bonus?

Odinage · 09/22/09, 9:18 AM

Originally Posted by snakzz

Maybe it has been answered here earlier, but didnt find it.

Is the 2 x tier 9 set bonus now fixed on live, or only on the PTRs?

It is fixed on the 3.2.2 PTR, which is released this week.

Blackthought · 09/22/09, 9:38 AM

If I wanted to keep divine sacrifice in my build (5/11/55), is there a consensus of the best point to drop from the ret tree in order to pick up Seal of Command? I am thinking that swift retribution is the best candidate (going 2/3) even though we dont usually raid with a boomkin. I am reluctant to give up vindication given the ease with which we can apply the debuff. What are others planning to do?

• frmorrison · 09/22/09, 9:53 AM

Originally Posted by Blackthought

If I wanted to keep divine sacrifice in my build (5/11/55), is there a consensus of the best point to drop from the ret tree in order to pick up Seal of Command? I am thinking that swift retribution is the best candidate (going 2/3) even though we dont usually raid with a boomkin. I am reluctant to give up vindication given the ease with which we can apply the debuff. What are others planning to do?

I am skipping Seal of Cleave personally, since I never got the hang of seal swapping, and there aren't Ulduar levels of trash yet (likely will return in 3.3). 1% haste over 25 people is a pretty big raid effectiveness increase, and Vindication reduces a lot of melee damage over regular Demo Shout. It is a tough choice.

spanko · 09/22/09, 10:15 AM

Originally Posted by Blackthought

If I wanted to keep divine sacrifice in my build (5/11/55), is there a consensus of the best point to drop from the ret tree in order to pick up Seal of Command? I am thinking that swift retribution is the best candidate (going 2/3) even though we dont usually raid with a boomkin. I am reluctant to give up vindication given the ease with which we can apply the debuff. What are others planning to do?

If you raid with a moonkin swift retribution is completely worthless. That is where I've been dropping points to get Vindication.

Baklava09 · 09/22/09, 10:17 AM

Originally Posted by Blackthought

If I wanted to keep divine sacrifice in my build (5/11/55), is there a consensus of the best point to drop from the ret tree in order to pick up Seal of Command? I am thinking that swift retribution is the best candidate (going 2/3) even though we dont usually raid with a boomkin. I am reluctant to give up vindication given the ease with which we can apply the debuff. What are others planning to do?

It really depends on your raid comp. Our guild has two moonkin with excellent attendance so I dropped swift retribution to obtain more utility (mainly for Heroic Anub). I will be picking it up. If there is even one cleave target it does more DPS than Seal of Righteousness and personally I think it will be amazing on Heroic Anub for the aoe cleave damage to the adds.

Blackthought · 09/22/09, 10:28 AM

Originally Posted by spanko

If you raid with a moonkin swift retribution is completely worthless. That is where I've been dropping points to get Vindication.

As a noted above, I do not usually have a moonkin in raid. If I did, it would be a no-brainer. That is why I am soliciting comment

tarja · 09/22/09, 12:05 PM

Originally Posted by LastMan

% increase in total dps per STR = 2/5000 = 0.0004%

Unless the math above is completely wrong, I can safely conclude that Crit/agi > STR. (I haven't even factored in the the increase in dps due to more crits for non RV damage). This however only applies if we use the STR dps stat weigh in RAWR.

Something is completely wrong with the math, because crit is definitely not 3 times better than strength. I think maybe it is the bolded section? 2/5000 is 0.0004, or if you want to write it in percent then it should be 0.04%.

However, the general point is still correct, you will value crit higher once you have 2 piece T9. The general rule of thumb is that once you have 2 piece T9, Inscribed str/crit orange gems become better to socket than Bold str red gems if they will net you a socket bonus of at least 4 strength per orange gem used. This would not be true if you don't have 2 piece T9.

Capstone · 09/22/09, 12:32 PM

Originally Posted by LastMan

However a logical conclusion would be that the RAWR model does not model STR increase to total dps very well. Given that, i do believe that STR is indeed our best stat as it increases our total damage of all our attacks including RV. What concerns me is whether we should give a higher stat weigh to AGI/CRIT given out current 2pc T9 bonus. And if so, would leather gear pull ahead of plate gear with our 2pc T9 bonus?

If you're using Rawr to figure out stat weights, the simple method is just to click on the gear comparison dropdown and select Relative Stat Values.

IhvonGaidin · 09/22/09, 1:49 PM

Originally Posted by Blackthought

If I wanted to keep divine sacrifice in my build (5/11/55), is there a consensus of the best point to drop from the ret tree in order to pick up Seal of Command? I am thinking that swift retribution is the best candidate (going 2/3) even though we dont usually raid with a boomkin. I am reluctant to give up vindication given the ease with which we can apply the debuff. What are others planning to do?

I've been struggling with that as well because I'm in a 10 man guild. The MT is a prot paly with vindication, but there is often more than 1 mob, i.e. worms, twin valks... so if I'm attacking something else it's still a valuable debuff. We also have a boomkin but he often switches to resto on fights we need 3 healers, which is becoming more common as we tackle Ulduar hard modes and HToC. Sometimes the shadow priest goes Disc and the Boomkin doesn't go Resto... so we have some redundancy on the +hit for casters. I guess it comes down to %'s... how often am I NOT attacking the MT's target vs how often the Boomkin switches to Resto. I guess I'm going to drop Vindication simply because there is a warrior who can Demo Shout but no other 3% haste buff if the druid is resto. I don't suppose someone wants to tackle the math behind a warrior losing some rage for Demo Shout vs 3% haste for tanks/dps/healers?
Maybe I'll keep 1/2 Vindication so there's at least some debuff on non-MT targets.