Exemplar, how are you separating white melee hits, Blood Corruption, and seal procs? I'm still white attacking and spamming Divine Storm when I can for the WoL upload, but my combat log usually reads:

Expert's Training Dummy suffers 1 Holy damage from Charmin's Blood Corruption.(1216 Overkill)
Charmin's melee swing hits Expert's Training Dummy for 1 Physical.(2588 Overkill)
Charmin's Blood Corruption is refreshed on Expert's Training Dummy.
Charmin's Seal of Corruption hits Expert's Training Dummy for 1 Holy.(1179 Overkill)
Charmin gains 12 Mana from Charmin's Replenishment.
Charmin gains Charmin's Greatness.
Charmin gains Charmin's Paragon.
Charmin casts Divine Storm!.
Charmin casts Divine Storm.
Charmin's Divine Storm hits Expert's Training Dummy for 1 Physical.(2626 Overkill)
Charmin's Seal of Corruption hits Expert's Training Dummy for 1 Holy.(218 Overkill)
Charmin gains Charmin's Paragon.
Charmin's melee swing hits Expert's Training Dummy for 1 Physical.(2532 Overkill)
Expert's Training Dummy suffers 1 Holy damage from Charmin's Blood Corruption.(192 Overkill)
Expert's Training Dummy is afflicted by Charmin's Blood Corruption (2).
Charmin's Seal of Corruption hits Expert's Training Dummy for 1 Holy.(243 Overkill)
Charmin casts Divine Storm!.
Charmin casts Divine Storm.
Charmin gains Charmin's Vengeance.
Silvermoon Ranger begins casting Shoot Bow.
Charmin's Vindication is refreshed on Expert's Training Dummy.
Charmin's Divine Storm hits Expert's Training Dummy for 1 Physical.(6299 Overkill) (Critical)
Charmin's Seal of Corruption hits Expert's Training Dummy for 1 Holy.(1000 Overkill) (Critical)
Charmin's Divine Storm failed.(Not yet recovered)
Charmin gains Charmin's The Art of War.
Charmin's Divine Storm failed.(Not yet recovered)
Expert's Training Dummy is afflicted by Charmin's Righteous Vengeance.
Charmin gains Charmin's Vengeance (2).
Charmin gains Charmin's Berserk.
Charmin's melee swing hits Expert's Training Dummy for 1 Physical.(4986 Overkill) (Critical)
Expert's Training Dummy suffers 1 Holy damage from Charmin's Blood Corruption.(506 Overkill)
Expert's Training Dummy is afflicted by Charmin's Blood Corruption (3).
Charmin's Seal of Corruption hits Expert's Training Dummy for 1 Holy.(506 Overkill)
Charmin gains Charmin's Holy Strength.
Charmin casts Divine Storm!.

Now that's just 3 procs of it, but I find it difficult to separate what is actually causing the procs. Other than when I post up my log do you have a better way of tracking it that I can use?

Yeah, I don't see how you're supposed to test if seal procs or blood corruption application procs the reset. There is no buff gain in the combat log so it impossible to tell if the reset came from the auto attack or the other stuff. I supposed if you got a really big sample of auto attacks without a seal on and # of DS cast, then did the same thing with a seal for the same amount of time you might be able to compare the two, but you would need a retardedly huge sample.

I tried to keep a blood corruption 5 stack on a dummy then move out of cs/auto attack range and use DS to see if the DS seal proc would proc the reset. Spent about 5 minutes doing this and it never procced, it was irritating too because you have to move back in range every 15 seconds to refresh the debuff.

If DS could refresh off of white hit SoV seal procs, then you'd see combat entries along the lines of melee hit, seal proc, 2x Divine Storm! entries. For example:

2009-12-30 09:15:04.193 Bluedeep casts Seal of Command to Expert's Training Dummy.
2009-12-30 09:15:04.193 Bluedeep's crits Expert's Training Dummy for 5995 damage.
2009-12-30 09:15:04.478 Bluedeep's Seal of Command hit Expert's Training Dummy for 1215 damage.
2009-12-30 09:15:04.478 Bluedeep's Seal of Command crits Expert's Training Dummy for 2651 damage.
2009-12-30 09:15:04.533 Bluedeep's Seal of Command crits Expert's Training Dummy for 2495 damage.
2009-12-30 09:15:05.032 Bluedeep casts Divine Storm!.
2009-12-30 09:15:05.032 Bluedeep casts Divine Storm!.
2009-12-30 09:15:05.032 Bluedeep casts Divine Storm!.
2009-12-30 09:15:05.032 Bluedeep casts Divine Storm!.

However this only occurs with SoC seal procs on white hits.

No it's possible to tell. Don't do what I did at first and leave your combat log on "What happened to me". Where it says Charmin casts Divine Storm! is where 2pc is resetting Divine Storm's CD.

Well since that is the case I have yet to see a double Divine Storm! from either a Blood Corruption application or Seal of Vengeance proc. It is always one proc associated with one melee swing, but I'll upload that WoL regardless.

If you use quartz or any mod that shows your swing timer it is easy to see that the 2pc only procs when your melee swing is up. I spent about 20 minutes testing (not a huge length of time I know), but I never once saw a DS reset while my swing timer was reseting. It's a small sample size but if the proc rate is 40% then it should have happend at lease once during those 20 minutes.

All basically correct. If something other than just the autoattack itself could proc (SoV's hidden strike, special attacks, etc) then over a decent sample size you would see far more than 40% (+/- a few %) refresh, leading to an effective cooldown below 5 seconds.

I received a WoL report of SoC usage on multiple targets - cooldown was below 5 seconds from the multiple proc chance per autoattack. All other data is showing a 5.5-7 second effective cooldown, which is commensurate with a 40% proc chace.

Looks like mechanics are understood, SoC cleave only from autoatttacks is indeed proccing reset. Logically it should not.

Again, I'd propose someone with 2 piece (and a WoL, preferably) post on the WoW Bug forum identifying this. It's best to come from the Ret community and be addressed before it becomes a PvP issue. If it becomes a PvP issue and Blizzard answers QQ it's as likely to be a reduction in proc rate in general rather than actually identifying it as a glitch with SoC and correcting it. Such a reduction would result in a PvE boss-fight nerf rather than redress the true fault.

Rawr, Redscape, and Exemplar's tools all seem to agree that "J>CS>DS>..." is the superior rotation with 2P T10 and that most rotations are fairly close to one another. I am inclined to trust their models but my gut tends towards a "J>DS>CS>..." rotation. My argument in favor of such a rotation is that it increases the number of DS refresh opportunities and as a consequence decreases the usage number of Conc and Exo. Also, such a rotation allows you to take advantage of a somewhat common event where you have high DS proc streaks resulting in sequential refreshes and localized effective DS cooldowns near or below that of CS.

However, I don't have a solid understanding of their models and perhaps the increased effective cooldown of CS and/or an increase in GCD conflicts means a "J>DS>CS>..." rotation is a net loss.

I suppose my question is: presuming a standard "J>CS>DS..." rotation would you observe a DPS increase with a rule such as "if you see a DS refresh with ~6 seconds or more left on the DS cool down, then prioritize DS over CS?"

That is my understanding, for a single target situation. While CS is weaker than DS, extending the effective cooldown of CS over using DS more often is a dps loss in those models.

For AoE, DS first seems best with 2 piece T9.

I believe the reasoning behind I>CS>DS was filling as many GCD's as possible. When prioritizing DS over CS over an entire fight you should see more open GCDs than CS>DS.


Everything off CD J>DS>CS

0-J
1.5-DS
3-CS
4.5-cons
6-exo
7.5-CS
9-J
10.5 open without <Divine Storm!> proc

Everything off CD J>CS>DS

0-J
1.5-CS
3-DS
4.5-cons
6-CS
7.5-exo
9-J
10.5 CS
12- open without <Divine Storm!> proc


So in these two situations it would seem that prioritizing CS>DS doesn't accomplish much (all though obviously further down the road it might) but delaying your open GCD by 1, while also pushing back your chance at a <Divine Storm!> proc by 1 GCD. Just eyeballing it, it would seem that in a situation like this prioritizing DS>CS would be the better of the two seeing that both will leave you with an open GCD in about the same place without a 2p proc, and DS hits significantly hard than CS.

Obviously I could be missing something, and there is a decent chance that when you extend further the flaw in DS>CS becomes apparent, however in this specific situation, for the time being, I have been prioritizing DS>CS. It just seems that it is more of a judgment call now based on the situation, as opposed to a hard and fast priority.

I think this must be variable dependent on gear, because my personal findings in Rawr do not concur. Adding T10-251 gloves to the existing gear in my Armoury (which gives both 2T9 and 2T10) the highest DPS came from J>DS>CS, which provided 9276 DPS against 9173 DPS for J>CS>DS. Fight parameters were Rawr-standard (5m fight, single target non-moving humanoid boss, SoV used and Heroism available); version 2.3.4 was used.

Oh wow... you are right. I forgot to to take into consideration that you get a seal proc on your target in addition to the two bounces. Thanks for cleaning up my math; it's even more rediculous than I first thought. While this will make us the AoE kings for now it's clearly over the top.

I was playing around with the 4 dummies in org and was able to crack 15k dps without a single buff.

The 4 dummies in Org were probably the level 60 dummies.

I'm not 100% sure it is "over the top." It's probably not intended but in many of our trash runs to the boss I've seen feral druids, warlocks, and rogues do 25k+ dps regularly in an aoe setting. The seal of command effect of two piece t10 is amazing for trash mainly, but still a decent upgrade for single target dps as well.

Not to mention, most Retribution paladins run with Seal of Righteousness in serious arena pvp.

The bonus is so good right now that SoC is hands down the best seal in 3s and 5s if you run cleave like most rets do. Drop a HoJ on someone with their pet and another player near and you can just spam CS/DS until everyone is dead. It might not be terribly game-changing in PvE, but its way too good in PvP to not be up for a change soon.

I concur, the last thing we need is another hotfix nerf thanks to arena QQ. I ran a 30 minute sample on lvl 70 dummies and submitted the WOL. Similar results as others have posted.

Nerfing trash damage indeed doesnt matter at the moment, but the arena nerfbat is far to harsh to attempt to dodge again.

Please, submit your logs and prevent further catastrophy.

It was the level 60 dummies, but considering what I could pull before 2pc on the same dummies things are definately going to get out of hand. If there was no arena and Blizzard didn't balance Ret around PvP I would take your stance of "well its a PvE trash mob buff, who cares" but sadly that is not reality. 2pc provides the potential for AMAZING burst dps in arenas; especially in the 3v3 and 5v5 brackets. If you can get even 1 extra person next to your target you can DS as fast as you can auto attack using SoComm for the most part.

It's not a PvE issue; it's a PvP issue and Blizzard has set the track record for swinging the nerf bat with the quickness when things get out of hand in PvP.

I think, being that the rotations have fairly similar values, it may boil down to something as simple as how much haste you have (or what's your fully buffed weapon speed, more accurately). It may be that past a certain level of haste, you get enough DS procs to lower the potential effective cooldown to a point where the DPS gain is high and the free GCDs are low.

I'm curious if the harmonics situation that was discussed earlier may be impacting the models in this sense as well.

In my gear the difference between J>CS>DS and J>DS>CS is negligible. CS before DS is 0.05% to 0.3% better using SoV on a boss. Even if it was 1-2% difference it could easily hide in RNG fluctuation from crit streaks or lack thereof.

On trash, using SoC (until Blizz hopefully fixes it for PvP purposes rather than nerfing proc from 40% to 10-15%) DS>CS is probably superior. Every white has 4 chances to proc reset, after all.

As with most things of this nature, for ever person who tries it: one will swear by it as an increase, one will swear a decrease, and one will say they don't notice a difference. I suspect I'd be in the third group, and therefore am too lazy to alter my clcret settings.


Edit to reply to Zurm above, who posted while I typed:
I ran several different tests with different random seeds and different haste values (arbitrarily increasing my current gearset's haste) and the range is still under a percent. As haste advances some random seeds put DS ahead by the same narrow margin. We're talking literally 5 to 15 DPS better/worse.

P.S. 2 Piece enhances Bryntroll for obvious reasons. More DS are more proc chances, since Cons and Exo couldn't proc.


Edit 2:
Anyone with 2 piece having any mana problems, or do raid buffs (and especially ensuring JoW is judged for procs) cover it as it should?

As already mentioned by beta, J>DS>CS does have more open CDs than J>CS>DS, which I also noticed during testing.

J>CS>DS also came up with alot more Exorcisms and Consecrations than J>DS>CS. Considering the really negligible difference, doesn't J>DS>CS also add the advantage of using utility like DP while being less GCD-locked? Plus, we're still looking for ways to get the best out of the procs without wasting to much of them due to human reaction time which can be a problem at times.

Either priority sequence should have zero free GCDs with 2 piece. If you're counting timeperiods below 1.2 seconds (approx hasted spell GCD) then it's not a full GCD and utilizing it for a non-attack purpose is a loss of overall DPS.

Without 2 piece, I only have 1 GCD in a 5 minute fight, and that's reserved for Divine Plea. Obviously with movement you easily find time for other DP. But I have to say, if you have multiple free GCD: "You're doing it wrong." Again, I'm not counting lengths which are not enough to use an ability without creating futher delay.

With 2 piece, not only do you have zero free GCD, you're losing casts of Consecration and Exorcism, because you're hitting significantly more DS. The DS DPS gain far more than is lost, of course. Point remains, J>DS>CS or J>CS>DS, you should not have free GCD at all unless you hit a really bad RNG streak.

Still hoping to hear reports that mana is perfectly fine with 2 piece. On paper it should be.

In ToC, ToGC, and ICC I was in no danger of going OOM so as long as I was able to garuntee 100% JoW uptime. I didn't feel the need to use a mana potion over a haste potion on Deathbringer, Gunship, Beasts, Jaraxxus, Champs, or Valks. On Anub'arak I had to switch to JoL and a Holy Paladin was inconsistently applying JoW. I did run into a point in P3 where I went OOM, could not cast another Judgement, and had to use a mana potion.

I know Zurm mentioned that he's required to be the primary JoL source on most encounters, so individuals in his situation may run into more significant issues with 2P T10 and high proc streaks.

If we're looking for a worst case scenario, it may be Dreamwalker if SoC's interaction with 2P T10 isn't fixed in the next four to five weeks.

That sounds reasonable and is good to hear. JoW is a huge swing in mana with 2 piece - more hits and more chances to proc vaguely balance out. Lacking it shows very painful on paper - literally the difference between rapid OOM and infinite mana.

Valithria or shielding mobs (like adds on Deathwhisper) which absorb Judgements (thus no JotW) sound like they could be the low mana points for us. Obviously SoC cleave and many DS should make these fights excellent for DPS purposes.