I really doubt it, losing 10 expertise and a DoT that is doubled couldn't be worth getting a 2nd seal proc that is cut in 1/2. Remember all your damage is cut in 1/2 on the other one but doubled on the main one you are dpsing. The single target damage of vengenace would be ahead in this situation.

Unfortunately there are a couple problems with trying to make a ProtDPS build work in PvE, the main one I see being threat. Mana could be an issue if for some reason DP falls off, but between Wisdom, Replenishment and JoW you would probably be set to provide a full rotation with consecration, and maybe even AS as long as DP stays up.

Other than that I suppose it could work, but it would require you to get 2500 BV while still using pretty much solely STR gear (as little AP gear as possible since AP would be valued at what I would assume would be a much lower # than for ret). Maybe on our Ulduar farm night I'll ask to try it out (since I use a ProtDPS spec for pvp) and see what I can come up with. Unfortunately I don't have access to the 2pc T9 prot set since I still need holy gear for raiding, but the legs/helm provide a substantial amount of BV which is what I assume the prot pally on your BG uses. The 2pc bonus is also pretty nice.

That's exactly what he's using. Along with a few other high Block value items, but for the most part a mix between ret pve and pvp gear. I'm not sure Threat would be too much of an issue as long as u kept righteous fury off of your buff list

Again i'm not saying its a viable spec for pve content. However it is more than borderline OP for an arena situation

I just remember ret pallies having large aggro issues before the change to Fanaticism was implemented, so I was going off of that. If not well, awesome.

While it can definitely be quite good in certain situations for PvP, it really does have its weaknesses. Spamming support abilities will OOM you in no time along with possibly rebuffing (unless you're taking damage, hurray for SA!), so it really depends on your team makeup. Prot pally DPS also requires that there isn't a lot of break-on-damage CC going around since our main DPS seal is SoV - considering how HoR can apply this, it gets a bit dangerous in situations where an accidental application of a 15s vengeance debuff can really be a pain in the butt.

A very strong 2v2 comp last season was double prot - one specced more for healing and in Holy gear, and one specced more towards ret using DPS gear.

With 2 bubbles, no double-DPS team can hold a chance against them, and CC-heavy teams also have trouble since the prots can survive through fairly long CC chains. 20-second HoJ stuns from 2 paladins meant the opposing team was dealing with stuns almost constantly, and an infinitely refreshing non-purgable Divine Plea meant the duo can go forever without worrying much about mana.

It's an interesting idea, and I also wish I had a 3rd spec.

No, it wouldn't. It will cap out at an amount where the amount you can add to it within the duration of a tick is equal to one tick.

RV ticks 4 times over 8 seconds for 25% of its pool on each tick. For simplicity of maths, let's say that between each tick we always add 4000 to the pool. Here are two sample pools: one where we are establishing the pool, and another where we've built a bigger than normal pool using damage increasing effects that have now worn off:

S _Pool _Tick	S _Pool _Tick
02 00000	02 20000
04 04000 0	04 19000 5000
06 07000 1000	06 18250 4750
08 09250 1750	08 17688 4563
10 10938 2313	10 17266 4422
12 12203 2734	12 16949 4316
14 13152 3051	14 16712 4237
16 13864 3288	16 16534 4178
18 14398 3466	18 16400 4133
20 14799 3600	20 16300 4100
22 15099 3700	22 16225 4075
24 15324 3775	24 16169 4056
26 15493 3831	26 16127 4042
28 15620 3873	28 16095 4032
30 15715 3905	30 16071 4024
32 15786 3929	32 16053 4018
34 15840 3947	34 16040 4013
36 15880 3960	36 16030 4010
38 15910 3970	38 16023 4008
40 15932 3977	40 16017 4006
42 15949 3983	42 16013 4004
44 15962 3987	44 16010 4003
46 15971 3990	46 16007 4002
48 15979 3993	48 16005 4002
50 15984 3995	50 16004 4001
52 15988 3996	52 16003 4001
54 15991 3997	54 16002 4001
56 15993 3998	56 16002 4001
58 15995 3998	58 16001 4000
60 15996 3999	60 16001 4000

As you can see, the ticks inevitably rise or fall to the point where RV ticks for the same 4000 we are adding.

In real situations RV will never tend to a precisely fixed amount of damage due to our crits not being fixed, but over an extended series the average tick of RV will be no higher than 30% of our average crit damage. (The actual point will be a little lower, as we have to build up the pool and the vagaries of luck say we won't always be able to refresh RV between ticks.)

This is where 2pc T9 comes in. To get the most out of it, we have to stay at the equilibrium point at all times when we are not using CDs to go above it. To continue with the simplified example: if we miss a refresh, the pool will drop to 8000 after the next tick then restore to 12000 with the next crit. That means the tick following will only be for 3000, plus there will be further reductions to following ticks until equilibrium is restored. Each one of those ticks that crits represents a loss of DPS from what we would get if we maintained equilibrium throughout.

Btw, anyone noticed the bug (its older than 3.2.2) that if you arent using retri aura, every time you leave the range of another paladin aura your bonuses (3% haste and 3% dmg) disappear?

We'd have points to do DiSac, but not AM, and taking Divine Purpose would mean not taking PoJ unless points could be taken from Swift Retribution. The build would look like 5/11/55 if points were taken from SR to be put in PoJ.

Yes, SoC is more effective on 3+ mobs, so long as the seal can do its full damage to them.


As far as Prot DPS goes, I know in PvP I've had a lot of fun smacking people around. For PvE it has the potential to do respectable damage, but it still has a lot of things that would leave the paladin and the group wanting. 51 points in Prot leaves only 20 points elsewhere. As far as threat goes, there's always HoSalv. If we were talking theoretically having full points in each talent tree though, a shield and one-handed weapon could win out for damage.

I finally picked up Command, it is pretty awesome if you have more than 3 targets and you aren't on Champions (where you want to burn 1 target at a time). I am not sure full time Command would be best on Kologarn.

How are people handling Judgements? I normally run with a Prot and a Holy, however the Holy Pally only judges to keep up the Haste buff. I checked another guild, they did Wisdom from the Ret and Light from the Holy.

I posted this on the Blizzard forums and have updated it several times, it's sort of a rough guideline.

SoC = Seal of Command / SoR = Seal of Righteousness / SoV =Seal of Vengeance

Onyxia's Lair
Onyxia - SoV ground phases and SoC air phase

Crusader's Coliseum
Northrend Beasts - SoV
Lord Jaraxxus - SoV
Faction Champions - SoV depending on raid and strategy
Val'kyr Twins- SoV
Anub'Arak - SoV and SoC burrow phases

Ulduar
Razorscale - SoC air phase then SoV final ground phase
Ignis the Furnace Master - SoV
XT-002 Deconstructor - SoV
Iron Council - SoV
Kologarn - SoC (SoV depending on raid DPS)
Auriaya - SoC for sentries then SoV rest of fight
Hodir - SoV
Thorim - SoC until Thorim is engaged then SoV
Freya - SoC until the final phase then SoV
Mimiron - SoV phase 1 & 2 then SoC phase 3 & 4
General Vezax - SoV
Yogg-Saron - SoC

The Eye of Eternity
Malygos - SoV phase 1 then SoR phase 2

The Obsidian Sanctum
Sartharion - SoV

Vault of Archavon
Archavon the Stone Watcher - SoV
Emalon the Storm Watcher - SoV
Koralon the Flame Watcher - SoV

Naxxramus
Anub'Rekhan - SoV
Grand Widow Faerlina - SoV and SoC if adds are stacked
Maexxna - SoV
Patchwerk - SoV
Grobbulus - SoV
Gluth - SoV
Thaddius - SoR (or SoV depending on raid DPS) for mini bosses then SoV for Thaddius
Noth the Plaguebringer - SoV and SoC add phase
Heigan the Unclean - SoV
Loatheb - SoV
Instructor Razuvious - SoV
Gothik the Harvester - SoC adds then SoV when Gothik teleports
The Four Horsemen - SoV
Sapphiron - SoV
Kel'Thuzad - SoR until Kel'Thuzad is released then SoV

The rule of thumb is pretty much SoC for three or more targets, SoR for single targets which will die quicker than fifteen seconds, and SoV for any single target you will be attacking for more than thirty seconds, however there are always exceptions and this list will constantly be updated with player's replies and experiences for a collective and accurate list.

Also note these encounters don't take into consideration your specific raid comp and DPS which could change which seal is best to use in certain situations. Achievements and alternative strats could also change which seal to use and when.

After reading thru the past few pages, is it confirm that for SOC on trash (more than 3), the better rotation would be DS,CS,Judge ? Or Do we stick to our usual CS,DS,Judge?