A few pages back there was discussion on if Tiny Abomination in a Jar is going to be a poor trinket for Ret even if you are able to take full advantage of the 85 hit rating. Since the Plague wing is coming out Tuesday, I would like to expand it a bit further.
One would hope that Blizzard didn't drop the itemization ball with a 35% or less proc chance. Although even if the proc chance is low, we may run into another situation where weird things like refreshing Righteous Vengeance and Holy Vengeance provide unexpected additional proc chances. The Seal of Command bug where cleaves on white hits act as true additional melee hits may also give the trinket a boost.
As an aside, is there any class out there that is drooling over this trinket? I won't feel too bad about bidding on this for merely testing purposes if that isn't the case.
What are you basing those DPS estimates on Glutton? I'm assuming you're including the dps value of the hit rating since you included a value for a 0% proc rate. Are the others based on Bryntroll with a specific expected amount of AP?
I'm curious because if it were to proc exactly 50% of the time, over 16 swings taking an average of 2.8 seconds and hitting for 5k, you'd only end up with something like 54 dps from the proc. (2500 damage / 44.8 seconds), assuming the 50% weapon attack weren't able to crit.
Am I just reading the trinket's text incorrectly? Do each of the eight motes count as an individual 50% weapon damage proc, or do you get a single 50% wd proc once you reach eight?
In any case, this seems as though it is intended for dualwielders...it makes much more sense for them to be able to quickly build the eight charges and get an extra 50% weapon attack in (though the odd wording "one of your melee weapons" might invalidate it for them as well if it procs on the offhand more often).
Last edited by Noraj : 01/04/10 at 3:59 AM.
"The question is not how far we are going to take it... the question is, do you possess the constitution to go as far as needed?" - Il Duce
The ability lag seems to only happen when I get a <Divine Storm!> proc right as I hit DS, it looks to me like the bug is simply visual however, it makes it look like I am off the GCD when in reality I am on it from the DS I just cast.
This is just a personal observation, I haven't gone digging through logs trying to find out exactly what is happening because of how ridiculously random it is.
Does anyone else notice it happening under similar circumstances? I use default bars because I am lazy and haven't updated yet, it is possible that there is a bug with bar mods that makes this circumstance worse as well since it seems most people claiming a longer than 1.5 second lockout appear to be using bar mods.
It happened to me a few times in P3 of heroic Anub tonight and usually when I hit DS at the last half of my swing timer; the GCD doesn't swirl around while DS does its reset spiral but I'm locked out of all my attacks for ~2sec(using Dominos).
Yes it was with Bryntroll (and my current gear, switching out hit gear/gems where appropriate). I used Rawr 2.3.5 with the following values to model the proc:
Special effects:
Trigger: melee hit
Duration: 0
Cooldown: 0
Chance: X%
Stacks: 8
Equipment Effects:
% Weapon Swing = 0.5
The raid buffed weapon speed would be 2.28, although even using that value in the manual calculation it still doesn't approach the numbers reported by Rawr. Perhaps Rawr is allowing that additional 50% melee strike to crit and proc a seal.
The ability lag seems to only happen when I get a <Divine Storm!> proc right as I hit DS, it looks to me like the bug is simply visual however, it makes it look like I am off the GCD when in reality I am on it from the DS I just cast.
This is just a personal observation, I haven't gone digging through logs trying to find out exactly what is happening because of how ridiculously random it is.
Does anyone else notice it happening under similar circumstances? I use default bars because I am lazy and haven't updated yet, it is possible that there is a bug with bar mods that makes this circumstance worse as well since it seems most people claiming a longer than 1.5 second lockout appear to be using bar mods.
I use bartender4 and lockout period is much shorter for me than others have reported, I wrote in an earlier post that it feels like I'm trying to cast a spell on something which is out of range which will have the GCD kick in briefly before the game realizes you didn't really cast anything.
As an aside, is there any class out there that is drooling over this trinket? I won't feel too bad about bidding on this for merely testing purposes if that isn't the case.
The Rogues and Enhance Shaman (the DW classes) are drooling over it. However, the DW class could trade it to you for an hour then trade it back to get some Dummy data.
Millions of words are written annually purporting to tell how to beat the races, whereas the best possible advice on the subject is found in the three monosyllables: 'Do not try.'
However, this "ability lockout" is directly related to the SoComm bug causing Divine Storm to instantly refresh again and again. I have only ever had this problem when I have spammed (and kept refreshing) Divine Storm multiple times in a row.
This is theoretical conjecture:
It could be coding logic. Proc occurs in same millisecond (or smallest timeframe Blizzard uses for comparisons) as you use the ability. Server tries to determine which came first, DS or reset. It's going "You used DS at x.yz seconds and it reset at x.yz seconds, what do I do?", runs into an infinite loop that breaks after 2 seconds of non-resolution (nice coding to prevent runaway processes eating CPU cycles). You are unable to use abilities during this time because it's still trying to decide what's legitimate input.
Rock: "We're sub-standard DPS. Nerf Paper, Scissors are fine."
Paper: "OMG, WTF, Scissors!"
Scissors: "Rock is OP and Paper are QQers. We need PvP buffs."
Frankly you should not need someone else to inform you that you may be being having aggro issues. It is your responsibility as a DPS to monitor a threat meter, especially when you know beforehand that you are about to produce a huge spike in TPS.
Although I must admit though even with excellent tanks, the double dipping nature of Righteous Vengeance will push you up to the 110% threat neighborhood on Twins. However your raid had three Paladins. Proactively call out for a Salvation.
Frankly you should not need someone else to inform you that you may be being having aggro issues. It is your responsibility as a DPS to monitor a threat meter, especially when you know beforehand that you are about to produce a huge spike in TPS.
Although I must admit though even with excellent tanks, the double dipping nature of Righteous Vengeance will push you up to the 110% threat neighborhood on Twins. However your raid had three Paladins. Proactively call out for a Salvation.
That's the thing though, my threat must've REALLY spiked, because I never hear threat warnings and didn't even see the "change target" message saying darkbane had switched to me, the same thing happens to me on hodir, I just get gibbed out of no where >.<
That's why I'm asking what's going on.
Maybe casting hand of salvation on myself before I pop my wings and know my threat is going to spike would work?
And can you explain what you mean by the double dipping nature of "righteous vengence"?
hey guys...
i'am from germany and i hope u understand my bad english
so i read the forum since months and i wondered about that everyone speak about bryntroll and not a word about the axe before u get shadowmourne -> shadow's edge...
what are the reason?
hey guys...
i'am from germany and i hope u understand my bad english
so i read the forum since months and i wondered about that everyone speak about bryntroll and not a word about the axe before u get shadowmourne -> shadow's edge...
what are the reason?
thx and bye
Many people talk about Bryntroll as it is BiS, except for Shadowmourne, and fairly easy to obtain (depending on RNG and how much DKP you are willing to spend). Shadow's Edge will be a good weapon no doubt and is also easy to obtain providing you have the gold to cover 25 Primordial Saronites from your AH. Shadows Edge is good, Bryntroll is better.
And can you explain what you mean by the double dipping nature of "righteous vengence"?
You have the buff that increases your damage against one of the twins, resulting in bigger hits and crits against it. Bigger crits result in bigger RV being applied. And those RV ticks again benefit from the damage-increasing buff. Correct me if I'm mistaken
You have the buff that increases your damage against one of the twins, resulting in bigger hits and crits against it. Bigger crits result in bigger RV being applied. And those RV ticks again benefit from the damage-increasing buff. Correct me if I'm mistaken
The way the ability works leads me to believe your mistaken. RV ticks do not, to the best of my knowledge scale after the crit. working along the same lines as deep wounds, or ignite, the crit itself sets the amount, and that amount is unchanged until another crit comes along to boost the dot. now we see some very big crits on twins, (40-50k range jov) and so we also see some very big rv ticks.
i suppose you could test this easily enough. target a mob/dummy with no seal, no 2pt9 and crusdader strike untill you get a crit, as soon as you have RV on the target, turn your back and blow wings, if the ticks increase 20% in size, it does double dip.
The way the ability works leads me to believe your mistaken. RV ticks do not, to the best of my knowledge scale after the crit. working along the same lines as deep wounds, or ignite, the crit itself sets the amount, and that amount is unchanged until another crit comes along to boost the dot. now we see some very big crits on twins, (40-50k range jov) and so we also see some very big rv ticks.
i suppose you could test this easily enough. target a mob/dummy with no seal, no 2pt9 and crusdader strike untill you get a crit, as soon as you have RV on the target, turn your back and blow wings, if the ticks increase 20% in size, it does double dip.
RV does double dip which is why a paladin see a much bigger increase on twins than, say, enhance shaman.
The way the ability works leads me to believe your mistaken. RV ticks do not, to the best of my knowledge scale after the crit. working along the same lines as deep wounds, or ignite, the crit itself sets the amount, and that amount is unchanged until another crit comes along to boost the dot. now we see some very big crits on twins, (40-50k range jov) and so we also see some very big rv ticks.
i suppose you could test this easily enough. target a mob/dummy with no seal, no 2pt9 and crusdader strike untill you get a crit, as soon as you have RV on the target, turn your back and blow wings, if the ticks increase 20% in size, it does double dip.
It doesn't double dip from wings and most other buffs but it does from some boss specific damage buffs, twins as mentioned and also thaddius in naxx and I think one of the upcoming ICC figths will have the mechanic as well.
Well, I might have some info about the 2s gcd with 2pT10 bonus...
Mainly after observing how 2pT10 acts a few hours on dummy and trying to get a hold of the new rotation I noticed when that cooldown appears...
Actually it's no magic whatever bug, its pretty simple -> Action bars not refreshing Global Cooldown on Divine Storm.
If you magically manage to time your swings with DS cooldown here's what happens:
0.1 You hit DS > bam wham GCD.
0.2 You swing, and 2pT10 procs > bam wham DS gets reset, Icon for DS refreshes. HOWEVER, you're still on GCD and it's not show on the DS icon.
You keep mashing DS button to hit it, but nothing happens because of GCD, and visually it appears as a secret lockout bug.
Speculation:
Furthermore, I think multiple DS resets have a 0.5s icd. so if you land DS and white swing at the same time and BOTH proc the bonus, your DS icon resets, but due to minor server<>client lag when you hit DS, your bars trigger gcd, making it lag a bit more.
We haven't discussed Shadow's Edge because it's simple. Its stats are present and easily compared by spreadsheet/Rawr. Bryntroll has a proc - we had extensive testing done to determine what procced, what proc chance was, etc. Once this data was gathered we could determine the efficacy of said proc. Hence gobs of discussion.
If you're not sure if you aggroed something, check your combat log. If you took melee swings - you pulled threat. Also double-check your taunt button/macro and the log for this - if you're doing this, move the button or change the macro.
Threat pull can happen VERY early in a fight - I've gone from 50% threat to dead in a GCD with no threat warning or change of target - happens faster than client can inform. It should never happen late in a fight (barring threat wipes) as you should clearly see as you creep up to 100%, then 110% threat. If the tank has a "mere" 300k threat and you're at 90% (270k) you would need to do 60k threat (nearly 86k damage) to instantly pull.
Righteous Vengeance double-dips on Twins. You get Essence and do 50% bonus damage. So your crits are boosted by 50%. So 203% (meta) * 150%. 45% of crit damage (30% * 150%) becomes Righteous Vengeance - double dip. Empower would multiply through in similar fashion. 203% * 150% * 200% for crit, then 30% * 150% * 200% for RV. Then tack on 2 T9 for RV ticks critting for 203%.
Say JoV will crit for 10k in a raid (lowballed number for easy math). You have Essence, Empower, and pop Wings. 10k * 1.5 * 2 * 1.2 = 36k JoV. 36k * .3 * 1.5 * 2 * 1.2 = 38.88k RV. Yes, with multipliers RV would do more than the Judgement over its duration. That's 9.72k per tick of RV. If one of those ticks crit for 203% it's now a 19.7k tick. Crit a CS or DS during the same timeframe and watch those ticks rise.
Rock: "We're sub-standard DPS. Nerf Paper, Scissors are fine."
Paper: "OMG, WTF, Scissors!"
Scissors: "Rock is OP and Paper are QQers. We need PvP buffs."
The ability lag is normal and got "introduced" somewhere in the BC (iirc) era... It's the client trying to compensate for latency to put everyone on a more or less equal footing regardless of how much lag you have. Overall this was a good change (for PVE, it caused quite a bit of QQ for pvp).
Lets go back in time to the 1.0 area:
You hit an ability, it cooled down normally, and at the end of the cooldown the ability remained 'dark' off CD until you got a message back from the server that the gcd was over at which time it turned bright and you could hit it again.
The bad part of doing things this way is that high lag was severely impacting what you could do.
So somewhere in BC this mechanism was changed and the client now tries to compensate, by allowing you to press a button when the client 'thinks' the button came off CD. The server in turn compensates by accepting a command just slightly before an ability is actually off CD. The command gets queued and starts executing when the GCD of the previous ability is finished.
The server still sends back GCD completed messages and the client uses these to sync back with the server situation.
The bove is a simplified version of things, it's got to be more elaborate than just this, but I don't think blizzard actually has the whole system explained in full detail somewhere.
Overall a nice approach to the situation of latency, but also a cause for occasional headaches at blizzard since it can do some weird things with procs and instant abilities... You can sometimes end up reversing commands executing on the server, because instants get accepted (and executed) right away, wheras normal abilites are accepted and queued until the GCD is over.
I recall a warrior taunt issue a couple months back and a hunter aspec switching thing that would fall into this category. It's part of why blizzard doesn't like abilities off the GCD.
The 'double GCD reset' you're seeing is the client syncing back with the server after a proc. It'll typically manifest itself most prominently in a situation with high latency.
It doesn't double dip from wings and most other buffs but it does from some boss specific damage buffs, twins as mentioned and also thaddius in naxx and I think one of the upcoming ICC figths will have the mechanic as well.
This is how RV has scaled from % damage increases since 3.1, in that only boss encounter specific % damage increases (polarity charges, light essence, etc) cause RV to double-dip; the reason for this being the sheer number of % damage modifiers present in addition to encounter specific modifiers causing some insane RV damage. As Kvaern mentioned, the only fights that use this mechanic are Thaddius, Twin Val'kyr and Blood Queen Lana'thel.
So, to put the last nail in this coffin, since 3.1 RV only double-dips with boss encounter specific damage increases and nothing else.
That's the thing though, my threat must've REALLY spiked, because I never hear threat warnings and didn't even see the "change target" message saying darkbane had switched to me, the same thing happens to me on hodir, I just get gibbed out of no where >.<
That's why I'm asking what's going on.
Maybe casting hand of salvation on myself before I pop my wings and know my threat is going to spike would work?
And can you explain what you mean by the double dipping nature of "righteous vengence"?
Thanks for the reply
I don't know about anyone else, but when I'm empowered on twins, I always salvation-wings myself because I started hitting like a truck and if I don't salv, I watch my threat meter climb way to fast for my comfort.
I don't know about anyone else, but when I'm empowered on twins, I always salvation-wings myself because I started hitting like a truck and if I don't salv, I watch my threat meter climb way to fast for my comfort.
I always hate to say it, but tell your tanks to generate more threat. Bonus threat moves have a 150% modifier. Defensive stance has a threat modifier - brief perusal of Wowhead claims 207.35%. This is probably inaccurate or out of date.
Question: Why are Paladins crazy on fights like Twins? Answer: +% damage modifier stacking.
Question: Why should tank threat be crazy on fights like Twins? Answer: +% threat modifier stacking.
Damage * 1.5 from aura * Def Stance/Righteous Fury/Bear/Frost Presence threat bonus. Then multiply some attacks by bonus threat modifiers (Rune Strike, Heroic Strike, etc). Gone are the days of "high threat" abilities being a static value - they're % modifiers.
You're generating more than 50% extra damage, they're generating more than 50% extra threat. If you pull on Twins, you should pull on everything else.
Unless you're far outgearing your tanks (or using some odd single tank strat on Twins), they should be able to stay ahead on threat (barring the dangerous time shortly after a pull where resources (rage starvation, no rune strike procs, etc) may limit threat generation). Make sure those Hunters are misdirecting at the beginning, too - remember it stacks, now.
Finally:
If you're popping Salv and Wings simultaneously - you're doing it wrong. x * 1.2 * 0.9 = 1.08x You've lost more than half your Wings. If you must Salv, do it prior to Empower+Wings to give breathing room.
Rock: "We're sub-standard DPS. Nerf Paper, Scissors are fine."
Paper: "OMG, WTF, Scissors!"
Scissors: "Rock is OP and Paper are QQers. We need PvP buffs."
Finally:
If you're popping Salv and Wings simultaneously - you're doing it wrong. x * 1.2 * 0.9 = 1.08x You've lost more than half your Wings. If you must Salv, do it prior to Empower+Wings to give breathing room.
I'm confused as to what this means. What is x? Where are you getting 0.9 from?
You're generating more than 50% extra damage, they're generating more than 50% extra threat. If you pull on Twins, you should pull on everything else.
You do realize that Righteous Vengeance double-dips on the twins +dmg debuff, creating a situation where you end up scaling more than the tanks, right? Also, what on earth do you mean when you say that you "lose" half your wings? Lose half of what?
01/04/10, 3:34 AM
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