Does SoC still suffer from 5+ yard range problems with Divine Storm? If it does, it wouldn't be too reliable for AOE.
SoC is still 5 yards. Anyway, even if I had another point, I wouldn't get SoC for PvE.
Millions of words are written annually purporting to tell how to beat the races, whereas the best possible advice on the subject is found in the three monosyllables: 'Do not try.'
Back to HoR on taunt immune mob..... I would like to macro HoR with my normal abilities such as CS and have it taunt only if one of the listed mobs exists ( if the mob in the macro does not exist it will not cast HoR on my target).
I'm having problems getting the macro to work and I could use some help. Here is what I thought should work but isn't:
#showtooltip Crusader Strike
/startattack
/cast Crusader Strike
/cast [target=Exposed Heart, exists] Hand of Reckoning
/cast [target=VX-001, exists] Hand of Reckoning
/cast [target=Right Arm, exists] Hand of Reckoning
That's a small sample but you get the idea. Does anyone know why this wouldn't work?
Sometimes you will have to ignore socket bonuses because they are terrible! This is more a guide for when you want to meet such requirements. We finally have epic gems available, and so rare cuts have been removed from the lists. Due to JC changes (removal of the prismatic portion of the dragon's eyes) all paladins are equalized in gemming options.
Metas:
[Relentless Earthsiege Diamond]
This is the preferred meta, simply because of fairly easy gem requirements. You do lose between .5 and 1 DPS between this and the CSD but you gain more DPS by not using 2 blue gems. Do not use [Chaotic Skyflare Diamond] because 2 blue gems suck.
Prismatic:
You will be using one (and only one) of these to fulfill your meta requirement. Use it in a blue slot, preferably one with a good socket bonus (like str). [Nightmare Tear]
Yellow slots:
Hit gems should not be necessary as hit gear is plentiful - but if you REALLY want those socket bonuses... [Etched Ametrine]
Blue slots:
If you can't find a prismatic gem for your meta you can use one of these. Using more than one blue gem results in a DPS loss. [Sovereign Dreadstone]
The yellow gem to activate our [Relentless Earthsiege Diamond] you suggested is the [Etched Ametrine].
But as you also stated the +hit on it is fairly useless due to the abundance of hit on gear. So as long as you're hit capped why not use the [Inscribed Ametrine] instead?
The 10 crit on it only gets you roughly +0.2% crit chance but it's better than the 0 benefit you get from the 10 hit.
The yellow gem to activate our [Relentless Earthsiege Diamond] you suggested is the [Etched Ametrine].
But as you also stated the +hit on it is fairly useless due to the abundance of hit on gear. So as long as you're hit capped why not use the [Inscribed Ametrine] instead?
The 10 crit on it only gets you roughly +0.2% crit chance but it's better than the 0 benefit you get from the 10 hit.
You're overlooking the Nightmare Tear which is all thats needed to activate the meta. You should only use hybrid gems if you REALLY want that socket bonus. Not very many socket bonuses are worth the loss of 10 str from using a hybrid gem.
Back to HoR on taunt immune mob..... I would like to macro HoR with my normal abilities such as CS and have it taunt only if one of the listed mobs exists ( if the mob in the macro does not exist it will not cast HoR on my target).
I'm having problems getting the macro to work and I could use some help. Here is what I thought should work but isn't:
#showtooltip Crusader Strike
/startattack
/cast Crusader Strike
/cast [target=Exposed Heart, exists] Hand of Reckoning
/cast [target=VX-001, exists] Hand of Reckoning
/cast [target=Right Arm, exists] Hand of Reckoning
That's a small sample but you get the idea. Does anyone know why this wouldn't work?
Hmmm Crusader strike causing GCD thus preventing further spells? Put the HoR casts before CS maybe ? (at work, can't try myself atm)
Also... save macro space by doing only 1 cast line for HoR...
/cast [target=Exposed Heart, exists][target=VX-001, exists][target=Right Arm, exists] Hand of Reckoning
The yellow gem to activate our [Relentless Earthsiege Diamond] you suggested is the [Etched Ametrine].
But as you also stated the +hit on it is fairly useless due to the abundance of hit on gear. So as long as you're hit capped why not use the [Inscribed Ametrine] instead?
The 10 crit on it only gets you roughly +0.2% crit chance but it's better than the 0 benefit you get from the 10 hit.
Originally Posted by donmc
You're overlooking the Nightmare Tear which is all thats needed to activate the meta. You should only use hybrid gems if you REALLY want that socket bonus. Not very many socket bonuses are worth the loss of 10 str from using a hybrid gem.
Generally, a 6 or more Strength bonus from a Yellow socket is worthwhile to use hybrid gems for. Strength is about 2x times as good as Crit in a Hit/Dodge capped situation, meaning a Inscribed Ametrine would yield 21 points from a Yellow socket yielding a +6 bonus instead of a Bold Cardinal Ruby (20 points).
Interestingly enough, if you've used an Inscribed Ametrine somewhere in your gear, you're actually better off using a Nightmare Tear in one of your Blue sockets in lieu of a Sovereign Dreadstone.
#showtooltip Crusader Strike
/startattack
/cast Crusader Strike
/cast [target=focus, exists] Hand of Reckoning
I set my focus to whatever is safe to use HoR on ( XT heart when it comes out for example) with mouse button 4 and it will use HoR on cooldown when I cast CS. If I have nothing as my focus it will not taunt.
Is it worth using the SoR glyph instead of Exo glyph (if expertise capped or close to it) due to the fair bit of SoR usage? This glyph would be completely useless on fights where you do not use SoR at all (majority) but would be better than Exo glyph in cases where you used SoR (i'm assuming).
So with the new Rotation meaning Crusader Strike has 4 Seconds Cooldown, Iam really struggling to keep my Rotation up, I can get one or the other Exorcism Cast through Art of War, but Consecration seems to be always in the Way whenever CS is ready again.
Is it useful to keep Consecration in the Rotation, or can you drop it?
S3, the question you asked is answered clear as day in the first post. Go through it again, and specifically look at "The Basic Rotation" part.
Kromix, it really depends on the fight of course. Exo's glyph is roughly 50 DPS according to the OP. You have to decide whether using the SoR glyph will give you more DPS than Exo for the fight(s) in question. Keep in mind Exo can go over the 50 DPS against Demon/undead mobs. It won't be the most fantastic thing you've seen, but adding damage to an attack that will always crit is nice.
Minor tidbit: Glyphing for HoR/RD might be a DPS increase since we can guarantee it'll hit. This of course is assuming it doesn't get "fixed."
You're overlooking the Nightmare Tear which is all thats needed to activate the meta. You should only use hybrid gems if you REALLY want that socket bonus. Not very many socket bonuses are worth the loss of 10 str from using a hybrid gem.
Since 6 STR is better than 10 CRIT going for pure STR obviously is better in this instance, though the differences aren't that big. Which leads me to believe that depending on which sockets and socket bonuses your gear has it COULD be that using purple/orange gems becomes the better choice. Though this would probarly be very seldom.
I'm fully aware that my gear isn't the best around by a long shot, so I thought I might as well do the same to the BiS list for Alliance/Hard modes/All items in the 3.1 thread.
Could someone a bit more handy with the maths show how much STR a socket bonus would have to give for it to be an advantage DPS-wise to swap a 20 STR gem for a 10 STR/10 CRIT gem? I'm asking this because the T9 helmets has a socket bonus of 8 STR which could be activated through using a [Inscribed Ametrine].
Edit: Removed part about 10 STR socket bonus question due to looking like a fool.
Kologarn:
Entire Fight: Same case as Mimiron Phase 4. Scroll down.
[...]
Mimiron:
[...]
Phase 4: SoR will deal more damage than SoV in this phase. However, if your raid is coordinated and require you to go all out on a specific section, use SoV.
[...]
While I, unfortunately, neglected to combat log these, I found I got better results on both these fights with SoV with some finesse. My comparison was to our other Ret Paladin who slightly outgears me and who was using SoR for both fights.
For Kologarn I started out on the Right Arm as usual, swapped to Kologarn after the Right Arm died as usual, and then once the Right Arm respawned melee'd the right Arm for ~10 seconds before swapping back to the main body to refresh my SoV DoT.
For Mimiron the same basic principle, though I swapped between the Flame Leviathan part and VX-001 part every melee swing so that both my SoV stacks would be sure to stay up in between having to run out for Shock Blast.
Modeling this in my spreadsheet I don't find this occurring at any reasonable level of gear if you have Seals of the Pure. The only time SoC is superior to SoR is with a high DPS weapon and low attack power on gear. If they continue to scale similarly (logical), then SoR stays in the lead. If your AP (therefore Spellpower, too) increases more rapidly than your weapon it causes SoR to pull further ahead.
A fresh 80 in crafted gear who gets an Ulduar or Coliseum weapon could indeed find SoC superior to SoR, but it's a narrow lead. I show SoC 5 DPS better with crafted saronite gear and 25man (normal) [Justicebringer].
.....
TLDR: If you have SotP, SoC is only superior if you have a great weapon, but crap gear. Equal gear and weapon or good gear and crap weapon put SoR ahead.
I know only raid boss data is looked at normally but the lack of scaling on SP for SoC made me think that the cross over point would be more reasonable for a ret outside of a raid buffed situation, only using self provided buffs. Where would the cross over point be for that situation with it's significantly reduced AP and SP?
Is it worth using the SoR glyph instead of Exo glyph (if expertise capped or close to it) due to the fair bit of SoR usage? This glyph would be completely useless on fights where you do not use SoR at all (majority) but would be better than Exo glyph in cases where you used SoR (i'm assuming).
I assume by this statement that you are already at or VERY close to expertise cap, and that's why your glyphs aren't already Consecration, Judgement, and SoV. I personally don't feel catering to SoR is worth it, at all. People say the cutoff for SoV being better is if you have a minimum of 15-18s on the target, but those figures assumes the mob dies. On something like yogg's brain, or corrupter tentacles between phases, I'd bet SoV pulls out ahead just due to the DoT still ticking.
Endoscient and myself were playing around with SoV adn SoR last night on our Yogg 0K attempts (can look at the WoL link in my comment and find it). What we found was that SoR performed much better in P1 and all of P2 except the brain. In P3, we started on the adds for a few seconds with SoR, then switched back to the boss with SoV. This tended to yield the highest DPS (without us being on adds full time).
Back to the SoV glyph, I actually went and purposely removed expertise from my gear to make better use of it. The last time I mathed it out with Endoscient, we determined if you were getting at least 4 expertise points from the glyph, it was better than exorcism. Now I make use of 9 out of the 10 expertise it offers, which makes it quite powerful. The downside to this, of course, being that on fights that I need to use SoR, I'm low on expertise (at least, for a boss level mob).
Last edited by Zurm : 08/07/09 at 9:07 AM.
Formally Xyrm/Zurm, the Ret Pally. Now playing my rogue, Zyrm, more casually with RL friends.
...Now I make use of 9 out of the 10 expertise it offers, which makes it quite powerful. The downside to this, of course, being that on fights that I need to use SoR, I'm low on expertise (at least, for a boss level mob).
I believe this is the right way to go. The downside to it is quite easily fixable by having some expertise gear in your bags that aren't huge downgrades from what you're already wearing.
These are all the ilvl 219-245 items suitable for just that, excluding T9:
10 expertise works out to 82 expertise rating, which you get from almost any two of these. They span from 35 to 72 expertise rating.
Ilvl rating chosen due to availability.
So, because the usage of SoR is so low, it's not worth glyphying for it over Exorcism? I am assuming you do not reglyph between fights so its the choice of having SoR glyph all the time or the Exo glyph all the time. Although you can use Exorcism on every fight, does the benefit of the SoR glyph on the small number of fights you use SoR outweigh the dps loss from exorcism accross all fights. It seems like this would be a little ass-backwards to me, but I wasn't sure about this.
Yeah, i haven't had a chance yet to log in and change my gear around so I am unsure about what glyphs I can use and if I can drop some expertise for better stats to pick up the SoV glyph, or if I have to stick it out with Exorcism or SoR glyphs. It seems to me that it would be better to keep the higher amount of passive expertise because of those fights where you will be using SoR over SoV where you would be nearly half the cap too low. However, if your stat gains on gear you get from dropping expertise is big, then it would be better to go with SoV glyph.
I am going to buy the SoV libram first so that I have an good excuse to use SoV 100% of the time.
Seal swapping feels strange to me (other than Holy and I didn't seal swap when you could twist Blood + Command pre-3.0). Also losing 10 expertise is a loss, even if a lot of the gain for me is just parry removal (I get 5 expertise out of it currently).
Millions of words are written annually purporting to tell how to beat the races, whereas the best possible advice on the subject is found in the three monosyllables: 'Do not try.'
Back to HoR on taunt immune mob..... I would like to macro HoR with my normal abilities such as CS and have it taunt only if one of the listed mobs exists ( if the mob in the macro does not exist it will not cast HoR on my target).
I'm having problems getting the macro to work and I could use some help. Here is what I thought should work but isn't:
#showtooltip Crusader Strike
/startattack
/cast Crusader Strike
/cast [target=Exposed Heart, exists] Hand of Reckoning
/cast [target=VX-001, exists] Hand of Reckoning
/cast [target=Right Arm, exists] Hand of Reckoning
That's a small sample but you get the idea. Does anyone know why this wouldn't work?
I don't believe you can use /cast [target=targetname] macroes on hostile entities, only friendly ones.
target yourself
target the thing you want to attack
target the thing you don't want to attack
target lasttarget
Then if the thing you wanted to attack dosen't exist or fails for some reason, you will be targeting yourself rather than the boss and so you won't eat a crit and die.
So, you could do the following:
use /focus on the boss.
Then macro
/target player
/target <heart of XT | Yogg brain etc>
/target focus
/targetlasttarget <--- at this point we are either targeting the <thing we want> or ourself
/cast[harm] hand of reckoning
/target focus
/cast crusader strike
I know the days of libram swapping are long gone but now that we have 2 amazing librams, it might be worth looking into. What i noticed was that after getting the proc on the gladiator libram, the buff stayed even after i swapped to a different libram. Theoretically this means its possible to libram swap to keep up the JOV libram with its 200 AP. The proc on it is 16 seconds and with crusader strike now being a 4 sec cooldown it might be doable to keep both of them.
I tested this with a simple
/Cast crusader strike
/equip <libram 2 (JOV- but dont have the badges yet)>
/cast Judgement of Wisdom
/equip <Gladiator Libram>
The downside to these kind of simple macros is that it cannot be spammed. That causes extra cd's. But if you wait till the ability is actually off cd the strike and the libram swap goes off without a 2nd gcd being wasted. This was all tested on training dummies. Now if someone can figure out a mod or some better way to swap, it would be worth looking into.
I know the days of libram swapping are long gone but now that we have 2 amazing librams, it might be worth looking into. What i noticed was that after getting the proc on the gladiator libram, the buff stayed even after i swapped to a different libram. Theoretically this means its possible to libram swap to keep up the JOV libram with its 200 AP. The proc on it is 16 seconds and with crusader strike now being a 4 sec cooldown it might be doable to keep both of them.
I tested this with a simple
/Cast crusader strike
/equip <libram 2 (JOV- but dont have the badges yet)>
/cast Judgement of Wisdom
/equip <Gladiator Libram>
The downside to these kind of simple macros is that it cannot be spammed. That causes extra cd's. But if you wait till the ability is actually off cd the strike and the libram swap goes off without a 2nd gcd being wasted. This was all tested on training dummies. Now if someone can figure out a mod or some better way to swap, it would be worth looking into.
Functionally it does seem sound. The whole setup would equate to 230 strength from the SoV libram so a total of 460 AP and 138 SP without kings. Tack on the possible 144 AP and ~43 SP from the CS libram, and we're looking at a solid 604 AP and 171 SP gain.
It depends. There is a clause in the patch notes that causes items with proc effects to be put onto their internal cooldown when they are swapped in, obstinately due to healers feeling the need to swap in and out Val'anyr based on whether the proc was on cooldown or not. If this also applies to the new Libram swapping would be a generally bad idea, as with it on cooldown after every swap you would never see a proc. It's something that we can test is a few days though when people start getting enough badges to buy the libram.
The crusader libram doesn't have an internal proc so that would not apply to it. The JOV does but from what i have read, the proc rate is so high (about 70%) that it should proc within a few seconds. So the internal cooldown would have a minimal effect at best on the JOV libram and no effect on the CS one.
08/06/09, 11:32 PM
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