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Old 10/23/09, 5:03 AM   #1201
Neraya
Banned
 
Human Paladin
 
Khadgar (EU)
Originally Posted by Zurm View Post
I strongly disagree. By the same token, you could say it undervalues DM:G or Death's Verdict... as you SHOULD be lining up AW's to use with them. You shouldn't do this at the sake of casting fewer AW's, but if you're good and attentive with an ICD mod, you easily make the vast majority of your AW's land during those two proccing. This is just as much of a mark of a good ret pally as macroing on-use trinkets to AW.

Proc effects are a weakness of Rawr, true, but it affects all non-static buffs the same.
That depends on the fight. On a fairly static fight you can delay your AW for a while until the stars line up in perfect conjuction. But on some fights you can't. Boss mechanics sometimes require you to max out DPS in a limited timeframe that may not allow you to delay AW for much more than a few seconds.

I'm just pointing out that if you have a good 'on use' trinket, it's worthwhile to hang on to it and keep it in your bags even if you get an upgrade random proc trinket. An on demand damageboost is sometimes better than stuff happening at random. When to use the one and when the other, that's also part of the mark of a good ret pally I guess

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Old 10/23/09, 6:01 AM   #1202
Maylander
Piston Honda
 
Human Paladin
 
Kor'gall (EU)
Originally Posted by Trakor View Post
Death's Choice/Death's Verdict

Is it true you can stack the 2 Paragon buffs from the 245 and 258 trinkets? I always thought, since both trinkets share the same name and buff, they wouldnt stack, or at the very least, share the same icd. But ive heard today that they do indeed stack. If so, is that the case on PTR as well or is it geting nerfed/fixed? Has anybody here done any testing on this?
Actually, I've read reports that the stats still stack, and that the trinket proc seems to proc somewhat independantly (i.e one can proc right after the duration of the other ends), but without stacking. I'd like to see confirmation from someone with both trinkets actually getting 960 Strength in total before I try to get the normal version of Death's Verdict (I currently have the Heroic version).

I read someone claiming they did a full one hour test on a target dummy, without once recording the full 960 Strength buff.

"If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles.
If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat.
If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle." - Sun Tzu, Art of War

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Old 10/23/09, 8:24 AM   #1203
 Zurm
The Ultimate in /facepalm Technology
 
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Blood Elf Paladin
 
Arthas
Originally Posted by Neraya View Post
That depends on the fight. On a fairly static fight you can delay your AW for a while until the stars line up in perfect conjuction. But on some fights you can't. Boss mechanics sometimes require you to max out DPS in a limited timeframe that may not allow you to delay AW for much more than a few seconds.

I'm just pointing out that if you have a good 'on use' trinket, it's worthwhile to hang on to it and keep it in your bags even if you get an upgrade random proc trinket. An on demand damageboost is sometimes better than stuff happening at random. When to use the one and when the other, that's also part of the mark of a good ret pally I guess
I still disagree. Proc trinkets tend to have a higher uptime, so you're actually more likely to run into the situation where the on-use trinket is on cooldown when you need it. Or, worse yet, you are saving the effect for the few times you need it, and therefore taking a significant DPS hit. Furthermore, most fights you know in advance when you will need to AW (such as when your guild does heroism/bloodlust, or you can do more DPS to the boss). Sure, there are (extremely limited) cases where an on-use trinket would be superior... such as Twin Valkyr (since you should *only* ever use AW when you have the dark/light infusion). But with proper planning, you can make it so that your procs align with events in the fight that you may need them in. ICD's on trinkets are well known and documented... simply by re-equiping them before you pull, you can trigger their ICD and control WHEN they proc. If you have two proc trinkets with different ICDs, then you do your best to align the more poweful of the two. It really isn't that difficult.

Finally, if you look at ALL on-use trinkets, for their item level they have very weak effects when compared to proc trinkets. This is intentional; being able to extremely easily dictate when your effect goes off comes at a steep price. DM:G is 26 ilvls lower, but it's proc carries more weight. In 2 minutes, DM:G will trigger an average of 2.67 cooldowns at 300 str (600 equiv AP) each for 15s each, while wrathstone only gives 856 AP for 20s every 2 min. That means that for about 40 seconds I could be getting 600 ap, or 20 seconds getting 856 in any given 2 minute window. This is being fair to you, not including the greatly increased benefit we get from strength, as I was trying to demonstrate by ilvl alone how much better proc trinkets are. Furthermore, I'm also ignoring the fact that the static stats on greatness are vastly superior (since that's a function of stat choice, not ilvl spent).

So in response to you pointing out how a "good" on-use trinket is worth holding on to, I counter by saying that any proc trinket even a tier below, assuming it has crit, AP, or STR on it, will outperform any on-use trinket you can find. [Wrathstone] is not even remotely competitive to other trinkets out there... it's good for those who are unlucky and haven't found their second proc trinket yet (Dark Matter, Comet's Trail, or DV), but it is not worth it otherwise.

Last edited by Zurm : 10/23/09 at 8:53 AM.

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Old 10/23/09, 8:29 AM   #1204
Sunshinewow
Glass Joe
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Sylvanas (EU)
offtopic.
Is there any site where you can compare dmg with other players from same class on same boss,or it`s only way to browse WoL?

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Old 10/23/09, 8:32 AM   #1205
 Zurm
The Ultimate in /facepalm Technology
 
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Blood Elf Paladin
 
Arthas
The only place that you can do that currently is WoWMeterOnline.com, but unfortunately it's hosted in either Taiwan or China, and is notoriously slow. Plus, you have to upload your logs to their site as well.

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Old 10/23/09, 8:43 AM   #1206
RawenDK
Glass Joe
 
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Human Paladin
 
Kor'gall (EU)
Originally Posted by Sunshinewow View Post
offtopic.
Is there any site where you can compare dmg with other players from same class on same boss,or it`s only way to browse WoL?
WoL has a new function, who in some way lets you compare DPS:
World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

Last edited by RawenDK : 10/23/09 at 10:07 AM. Reason: Spelling

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Old 10/24/09, 1:39 PM   #1207
rldolph79
Von Kaiser
 
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Human Paladin
 
Alexstrasza
Originally Posted by Maylander View Post
I read someone claiming they did a full one hour test on a target dummy, without once recording the full 960 Strength buff.
My understanding from what I've read is the trinkets share an ICD, so theoretically you could proc both at the same time if they happen to proc on the same hit after the ICD is up, but the odds of that are very slim. If, however, one procs without the other they both have to wait for the ICD before either can proc again. Can anyone confirm/deny this?

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Old 10/24/09, 3:24 PM   #1208
chinoquezada
Von Kaiser
 
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Dwarf Hunter
 
Turalyon (EU)
Originally Posted by rldolph79 View Post
My understanding from what I've read is the trinkets share an ICD, so theoretically you could proc both at the same time if they happen to proc on the same hit after the ICD is up, but the odds of that are very slim. If, however, one procs without the other they both have to wait for the ICD before either can proc again. Can anyone confirm/deny this?
I was testing this yesterday with DMC:Greatness and Pyrite Infuser Equipped vs. Target Dummy. From what I could see, whenever I trinket swapped before engaging the dummy only 1 trinket procced after the 45s ICD, leaving the other unprocced for another ICD (45s). It was generally DMC:Greatness the one that came up first.

Can anyone confirm this please?

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Old 10/24/09, 5:31 PM   #1209
 frmorrison
Protector
 
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Ashstrike
Human Paladin
 
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Originally Posted by chinoquezada View Post
I was testing this yesterday with DMC:Greatness and Pyrite Infuser Equipped vs. Target Dummy. From what I could see, whenever I trinket swapped before engaging the dummy only 1 trinket procced after the 45s ICD, leaving the other unprocced for another ICD (45s). It was generally DMC:Greatness the one that came up first.

Can anyone confirm this please?
The poster you quoted is incorrect. Currently Death's Choices have a different spell ID, so each has its own 45 second ICD, which means you can get a double proc of lots of strength. You can do the equip trick right before starting the encounter to make it proc later if you wish.

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Old 10/25/09, 12:13 PM   #1210
rldolph79
Von Kaiser
 
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Human Paladin
 
Alexstrasza
I did a little more research and found that they do, in fact, stack.

http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/9683/dualproc.jpg

However, someone is claiming that they saw a blue post (which nobody has been able to find or confirm) that said this would changed so only one proc could be up at a time. So, the procs do stack for now at least...

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Old 10/25/09, 5:09 PM   #1211
Swampmoose
Glass Joe
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
<FH>
Black Dragonflight
Originally Posted by Zurm View Post
I strongly disagree. By the same token, you could say it undervalues DM:G or Death's Verdict... as you SHOULD be lining up AW's to use with them. You shouldn't do this at the sake of casting fewer AW's, but if you're good and attentive with an ICD mod, you easily make the vast majority of your AW's land during those two proccing. This is just as much of a mark of a good ret pally as macroing on-use trinkets to AW.

Proc effects are a weakness of Rawr, true, but it affects all non-static buffs the same.



With 2pc T9, crit is EXTREMELY powerful. If you line up a DM proc with AW, you can lay a world of hurt into your target.
Zurm, could you recommend a good addon to track trinket ICDs?

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Old 10/25/09, 5:24 PM   #1212
Glutton
King Hippo
 
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Blood Elf Paladin
 
Kalecgos
Clcret combined with InteralCooldowns and OmniCC works quite well. Discussion about how to set it up can be found here.

Ex.

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Old 10/25/09, 6:03 PM   #1213
Swampmoose
Glass Joe
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
<FH>
Black Dragonflight
Thanks, I'll give that a try.

Edit: Got it set up and it works great. That is exactly what I was looking for. Thanks again.

Last edited by Swampmoose : 10/25/09 at 6:40 PM.

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Old 10/25/09, 6:12 PM   #1214
RawenDK
Glass Joe
 
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Human Paladin
 
Kor'gall (EU)
Originally Posted by Swampmoose View Post
Zurm, could you recommend a good addon to track trinket ICDs?
I find "Procodile" to be excellent.
Link: Procodile - Addons - Curse

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Old 10/26/09, 12:18 AM   #1215
flyingtoastr
Bald Bull
 
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Human Paladin
 
Draka
ForteXorcist also has the option to display internal cooldowns for items (and it has a number of other very useful modules such as general logarithmic cooldown sliders and DoT trackers).

E: Download link

Last edited by flyingtoastr : 10/26/09 at 12:28 AM.

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