Before I can get to Cons, DS resets. Sometimes twice. Which ability should I use then? I always try to use CS as it comes off CD because of the seals, but it's not always off CD, neither is JoW. Should I just use DS as it resets above other spells/attacks?
I think you are slightly confused as to Ret's "rotation". You should always use the highest priority off cooldown. It doesn't matter whether you haven't cast a lower priority spell yet or not. If you can cast a higher priority (as when DS resets), then you should use it. There are very rare exceptions (boss movement and such), but it is still the core of how we play.
That being said, as long as Judge is used first, and you hit 'something' whenever you can, models have shown it doesn't make that big a difference.
I do use the highest priority off CD, but thanks for clearing up the lower priority spells/abilities. I won't lable it "confusion" as such, it's just new. And I think until one can settle into it, it will be as normal again.
I just wanted to clarity, so I don't do something wrong whilst playing.
I was wondering if anyone of you guys thought of trying to HoJ/HW the Spirit (am not 100% sure but they should be CC'able) on the platform that despawns after the Remorsless Winter phase ends so that it will fell down and die, gaining you more dps time on the Lich King instead of a tank dragging it around and having to face it away from the raid so that it doesnt kill ppl with Soulshreak.
I was wondering if anyone of you guys thought of trying to HoJ/HW the Spirit (am not 100% sure but they should be CC'able) on the platform that despawns after the Remorsless Winter phase ends so that it will fell down and die, gaining you more dps time on the Lich King instead of a tank dragging it around and having to face it away from the raid so that it doesnt kill ppl with Soulshreak.
After trying this, they're immune to stuns (HoJ/HW). After seeing a spirit fall before it reappeared seconds later at the top with the same HP.
Few things i noticed, valks arn't immune to taunt and you can use HoR for dps. Using seal of command when valks spawned with Holy Wrath to stun all valks for aoe is good, was able to top dmg done to valks.
The Shambling Horror shockwave also seems to bug and hit people from behind/inside, running out before shockwave cast and being max range is important.
SoR v SoC also depends on whether or not you are still using 2 piece T9 still; which I am since I've been saving all my Frost emblems to get my axe made. Probably should have mentioned that. Regardless, I've always thought SoV was garbage for target swap fights like Putricide. I'll give it a go this next week, but It's rare to be DPSing ooze for more than 15 seconds.
Recall that SoV pulls ahead after approx 11-12 seconds of DPS. So if you get 11-12 uninterrupted seconds of DPS on a slime, SoV should be as good as SoR/SoC (depending on which seems to be best for you). If you are unable to DPS any target (including Putricide) for the necessary 12ish seconds, then you will find another seal superior.
I suspect 12 interrupted seconds (knockback from Green slime) could still be superior with SoV. As has been mentioned, Holy Vengeance is still ticking while you're not in there to melee.
Rock: "We're sub-standard DPS. Nerf Paper, Scissors are fine."
Paper: "OMG, WTF, Scissors!"
Scissors: "Rock is OP and Paper are QQers. We need PvP buffs."
I was wondering if anyone has come a cross a situation like this. Tonight on Prof. my auto-attacks, CS, judgements would not work for most of the fight both on the boss and the adds (DS and Cons were fine). Not sure what caused or what could cause it. I left the raid after the 2nd attempt it happened on but could not replicate this out in the real world. I was thinking maybe an addon but if it was shouldn't the problem be on every mob not just prof? Any suggestions on what I should look at?
I was wondering if anyone has come a cross a situation like this. Tonight on Prof. my auto-attacks, CS, judgements would not work for most of the fight both on the boss and the adds (DS and Cons were fine). Not sure what caused or what could cause it. I left the raid after the 2nd attempt it happened on but could not replicate this out in the real world. I was thinking maybe an addon but if it was shouldn't the problem be on every mob not just prof? Any suggestions on what I should look at?
The Love is in the Air candy has been known to make certain abilities not work properly in certain situations. My guild stopped using them immediately after encountering issues much like what you're describing and have had no similar issues since.
The Love is in the Air candy has been known to make certain abilities not work properly in certain situations. My guild stopped using them immediately after encountering issues much like what you're describing and have had no similar issues since.
Were you using those?
Yes and i did not have them when trying to reproduce it so this was most likely it.
The Love is in the Air candy has been known to make certain abilities not work properly in certain situations. My guild stopped using them immediately after encountering issues much like what you're describing and have had no similar issues since.
Were you using those?
The perfume was causing some people issues, but no one using the Cologne had problems.
Millions of words are written annually purporting to tell how to beat the races, whereas the best possible advice on the subject is found in the three monosyllables: 'Do not try.'
I'm curious as to what seals people are choosing for arthas, both 10 and 25. We couldn't get him down tonight mostly because malganis stability is terrible, but on the few attempts we did I found myself using all 3 of our seals for the first time. While I do realize that the ghoul damage isn't really important, I was using SoC in P1 to cleave them all down, because they do have to die eventually. P2 SoV seemed (barely) better on raging spirits, P3 I was using SoR to get valkyrs down quickly (also HoReck works on them this is a godsend). P4 is the same as P2 just faster, P5 is where the decision becomes tricky: you still want SoR judgement burst for the valkyrs (which don't live longer than 16s) but you also want to keep up damage on arthas, and I wasn't able to pull off any SoV stack refresh nonsense ala putricide. P6 is just a straight burn so SoV is obvious but I've not seen that yet.
I'm thinking we might want to change the point where SoV becomes better from 13s to ~18s - generally in this increasingly common situation where you want whatever it is to die asap, the extra judgement damage upfront seems to offset whatever would be lost in seal procs and judgement damage after the 13s threshold. Even fully raid buffed with heavy haste gear it's taking at least 10 seconds to get that 5stack up there, and by the time it is at 5 either your judgement is on cooldown or the mob is at/approaching 20%, where you and everyone else on the mob is executing. Call me crazy but I don't think our spreadsheets can accurately model these scenarios :| Prove me wrong, exemplar...
I only used SoV and SoC for him. SoC for phase 3 because of how often the valkyr's pathing puts a second target in cleave range while I am dpsing my primary add. SoV everywhere else, the ghouls in phase one can be taken out by the disease if they are picked up by your shambling horror tank. Phase 2 and 4 (the endless winter phases) the most important thing is single target on the raging spirits and they certainly live long enough for SoV to be the seal of choice here, all though based on your dps SoC can be useful for the end of phase 4 when you will surely have two spirits up for 15 seconds or so. Phase 5 there are no more valkyr so the melee should just be on Arthas full time, you may lose some DPS time on him based on how you handle the vile spirits (due to tank movement) which will pull SoV further ahead of any other seal (assuming you don't so something so crazy that you are off the boss long enough for holy vengeance to drop off of course).
Here is the log if you would like to browse and see what I was doing more in depth:
I'm curious as to what seals people are choosing for arthas, both 10 and 25. We couldn't get him down tonight mostly because malganis stability is terrible, but on the few attempts we did I found myself using all 3 of our seals for the first time. While I do realize that the ghoul damage isn't really important, I was using SoC in P1 to cleave them all down, because they do have to die eventually. P2 SoV seemed (barely) better on raging spirits, P3 I was using SoR to get valkyrs down quickly (also HoReck works on them this is a godsend). P4 is the same as P2 just faster, P5 is where the decision becomes tricky: you still want SoR judgement burst for the valkyrs (which don't live longer than 16s) but you also want to keep up damage on arthas, and I wasn't able to pull off any SoV stack refresh nonsense ala putricide. P6 is just a straight burn so SoV is obvious but I've not seen that yet.
I'm thinking we might want to change the point where SoV becomes better from 13s to ~18s - generally in this increasingly common situation where you want whatever it is to die asap, the extra judgement damage upfront seems to offset whatever would be lost in seal procs and judgement damage after the 13s threshold. Even fully raid buffed with heavy haste gear it's taking at least 10 seconds to get that 5stack up there, and by the time it is at 5 either your judgement is on cooldown or the mob is at/approaching 20%, where you and everyone else on the mob is executing. Call me crazy but I don't think our spreadsheets can accurately model these scenarios :| Prove me wrong, exemplar...
I think in p1 sticking to SoV and dps'ing the Horror is the wise thing to do and if you manage to stack the plague enough to kill the Horrors very fast then SoV on the LK. The ghouls shouldnt be a problem since they die eventually and u hit them with Conc and DS anyway. SoC might also give you some aggro issues with those ghouls because
its burst dmg opposed to DK's diseases that usually wont pull the ghouls off the tank.
P2 SoV on the spirits and be carefull, soulshreak hurts!!
p3 if the Valkyrs are close enough to use HW stun them and beat the crap out of them with SoC (personally i havent been to p3 yet so this is only my guess)
p4 the same as p2
p5 SoV on Arthas ( you cant hit the Vile's that are in the air??)--if you get theHarvest Soul i would guess SoV on the spirit inside
I'm going to agree with Beta and Turanduban here. Unless you are intentionally getting the ghouls on one target for tank taunts and you are that target, SoV is what you should use. I know people are going to say "BUT EPEEN METERS!", but it really doesn't help anything. If you do the disease right, everything will die to disease, and quickly. There is no need to waste part of your enrage timer for epeen.
For most of the fight, SoV should be your primary choice. I can see an arguement for SoC on the Vile Spirits phase, but really you can't afford to stay in there long enough without risking death.
Formally Xyrm/Zurm, the Ret Pally. Now playing my rogue, Zyrm, more casually with RL friends.
I'm thinking we might want to change the point where SoV becomes better from 13s to ~18s - generally in this increasingly common situation where you want whatever it is to die asap, the extra judgement damage upfront seems to offset whatever would be lost in seal procs and judgement damage after the 13s threshold. Even fully raid buffed with heavy haste gear it's taking at least 10 seconds to get that 5stack up there, and by the time it is at 5 either your judgement is on cooldown or the mob is at/approaching 20%, where you and everyone else on the mob is executing. Call me crazy but I don't think our spreadsheets can accurately model these scenarios :| Prove me wrong, exemplar...
Spreadsheets qua spreadsheets - no. Specific modeling of a short timeframe - yes. The 12 second comparison is from a "standing start" - everything off cooldown. Technically this should be worst case for SoV, since you open with a 0-stack Judgement. I'll run out several mid-fight (various attacks at different stages of cooldown) comparisons of seals and see how things hold up. Hope to be able to provide this later today. Caveat - I will use my gear (not including either T10 bonus to avoid DS reset issues or the +10% seal and Holy Vengeance from skewing results). Other gear could get different results, but I suspect the generalization derived will be applicable in all situations.
Rock: "We're sub-standard DPS. Nerf Paper, Scissors are fine."
Paper: "OMG, WTF, Scissors!"
Scissors: "Rock is OP and Paper are QQers. We need PvP buffs."
Spreadsheets qua spreadsheets - no. Specific modeling of a short timeframe - yes. The 12 second comparison is from a "standing start" - everything off cooldown. Technically this should be worst case for SoV, since you open with a 0-stack Judgement. I'll run out several mid-fight (various attacks at different stages of cooldown) comparisons of seals and see how things hold up. Hope to be able to provide this later today. Caveat - I will use my gear (not including either T10 bonus to avoid DS reset issues or the +10% seal and Holy Vengeance from skewing results). Other gear could get different results, but I suspect the generalization derived will be applicable in all situations.
In all the testing and modelling I have done the number is precisely 12 seconds. It ends up that way because the 4th tick of the SoV dot is at a full 5 stack and with a variety of different rotation situations it always ended up that the first full 5 stack dot tick pushed SoV over the top.
I am not saying that there is no situation where this isn't true, but every time I tried it 12 seconds was the breakpoint for SoV to overcome SoR/SoC.
100% SoC on Arthas is the way towards being the top damage done, but a lot of the that damage isn't helping. SoV should be used except on Phase 3 where the two target rule comes into play.
Rawr (while not as accurate as other tools, is close), says 14 seconds for SoV to beat the other Seals on one target.
Since I haven't seen someone post about when it is good to use HoR, here are the places I found it useful:
Phase 1 Lady Deathwhisper on her, the healing debuff ghouls on Dreamwalker, Ice Blocks on Sindragosa, and Phase 3 on Arthas on Valkyrs.
Millions of words are written annually purporting to tell how to beat the races, whereas the best possible advice on the subject is found in the three monosyllables: 'Do not try.'
I also have used HoR with success on Lord Marrowgar (during Bone Storm, since his aggro will reset anyway) and Gunship Battle (on various stationary targets, such as the mage).
Players may have only one Hand on them per Paladin at any one time.
Add blazing skeletons on Dreamwalker after/as they start casting Lay Waste, and on the Lich King transitional phases (which people seem to be referring to as phase 2 and 4) you can use it on the ice orbs (forget their exact name, the ones that move from him to the raid and can knock you off). It works on the Valkyr in P3 and on the Vile Spirits in P5 (though be careful, that spirit will actually dive at you).
Does anyone know if it's reasonable to use HoR in the sword room? Terenas is tanking, so I wonder how usable it is in there.
Formally Xyrm/Zurm, the Ret Pally. Now playing my rogue, Zyrm, more casually with RL friends.
In all the testing and modelling I have done the number is precisely 12 seconds. It ends up that way because the 4th tick of the SoV dot is at a full 5 stack and with a variety of different rotation situations it always ended up that the first full 5 stack dot tick pushed SoV over the top.
I am not saying that there is no situation where this isn't true, but every time I tried it 12 seconds was the breakpoint for SoV to overcome SoR/SoC.
Oddly, I did not find this true. It may be gear dependent. I was nearly expertise capped without GoSoV (it's just how the gear has dropped for me). If that drops even 4 or 5 under the cap the dodges and parries involved will reduce the SoR and SoC numbers.
The following test was run with my gear (modulus weapon). Both 2 and 4 piece T10 bonus ignored (4 didn't alter anyway, did a quick check). Glyph of SoV. Consecration was used (for GCD usage purposes), but its DPS ignored (adds move through it, it sits on the boss, whatever). Assume target swap at time 0, 100, 200. 100 and 200 are mid-fight so some attacks are mid-cooldown. Raid buffs and some haste from gear was involved (as this impacts SoV stacking). Libram was swapped with seal (PvP vs Valiance).
Bryntroll (3.4 speed):
Time
SoV
SoR
SoC
0
5531
9422
4222
5
27679
38977
36714
10
56720
70776
65074
15
88113
94572
91220
20
120200
121095
114305
...
...
...
...
100
0
0
0
105
25000
31798
28360
110
43440
55595
54506
115
75123
82117
77591
120
104494
105914
103736
...
...
...
...
200
0
0
0
205
14127
26522
23084
210
29591
43140
40876
215
70458
82117
77591
220
100709
104800
102623
Shadow's Edge (3.7 speed)
Time
SoV
SoR
SoC
0
5574
9647
4382
5
25088
35561
32850
10
54498
69282
63221
15
88323
95196
91690
20
120363
123616
116759
...
...
...
...
100
4600
6402
7041
105
26280
33720
30370
110
46208
59634
58839
115
81931
88054
83909
120
119176
119269
117679
...
...
...
...
200
4600
6402
7041
205
20446
28419
25069
210
42075
52492
51058
215
79486
88054
83909
220
112136
112792
111201
As you can see, under 20 seconds SoR was the leader in every model. However, as we are GCD locked (especially when 2 T10 comes into play) it is a net loss to swap seals. The two GCD used for the swaps (there and back) are extremely large DPS loss. Also, the remaining ticks of Holy Vengeance/Blood Corruption on the old target are themselves non-negligible (10k-ish damage).
In short - if it's going to die fast enough that SoV won't catch up, losing GCD to seal swaps is a loss. If it's going to die slowly and SoV catches up, well, duh.
Only if you are going to repeatedly hit adds or target swap for more than a minute (i.e. an entire phase on a boss) should you really look at another seal. Glyph of SoR may be worth replacing GoSoV in such circumstance.
TLDR: I wouldn't recommend seal swaps for anything short of entire multi-minute phases.
Last edited by Exemplar : 02/09/10 at 3:54 PM.
Reason: Corrected Typo in table heading for Shadow's Edge
Rock: "We're sub-standard DPS. Nerf Paper, Scissors are fine."
Paper: "OMG, WTF, Scissors!"
Scissors: "Rock is OP and Paper are QQers. We need PvP buffs."
It's hard to make any blanket statements about Lich King 25 and seal usage because each guild is going to have different DPS assignments. We have Shambling Horrors stand out on their own and DPS the ghouls on top of the Lich King. Melee are on the Lich King and ranged are on Shambling Horrors. In the Val'kyr phase we have everyone group up so that all three Val'kyr travel together in cleave range.
For the initial phase, Remorseless Winter phase, and the final phase I use SoV full time.
For the Val'kyr phase I use SoC full time.
Ret does quite well in terms of Val'kyr burst when we are able to cleave. I was generally #2-3 on Val'kyr damage behind our DPS DKs.
The column for Shadow's Edge shows SoC as the winner, did you simply misname it or did i read it incorrectly?
It is a typo. Swap SoC with SoR for the second column's information.
Millions of words are written annually purporting to tell how to beat the races, whereas the best possible advice on the subject is found in the three monosyllables: 'Do not try.'
Oddly, I did not find this true. It may be gear dependent.
This is possible. I went and redid my calculations for a full 264 set of gear. I used my BIS 10 man set which is a plate priority 264 set ignoring Arthas gear and redid my calculations assuming that all sets had a 200 Str libram available.
SoR beats SoV until 14 seconds. SoC is ahead until 12 seconds.
My old tests were assuming a much weaker libram for SoR/SoC which is why they showed SoV pulling ahead at 12 seconds (this is still true if you don't have the frost badge libram).
Given this, I would tend to agree that seal swapping is quite poor if you have the new libram. If you do not you lose an additional 300 dps due to the bad libram for the whole single target burn so I suspect it is nearly always worth it to swap to SoV and Valiance if you are using pvp/Discord.
Clearly there is a substantial loss in switching seals so if you can switch on the run clearly do so, if you have to switch on target then you should need something like 20 seconds to make SoV a better choice.
Few things i noticed, valks arn't immune to taunt and you can use HoR for dps. Using seal of command when valks spawned with Holy Wrath to stun all valks for aoe is good, was able to top dmg done to valks.
One thing to note, because of the way stun DR works you should be careful that Holy Wrath is not the first stun used on the Valkyrie. Because it's stun is of such short duration, you will end up with significantly less total stun time than if a better stun (such as HoJ or Cheap Shot) is used as the opener.
I healed in our dreamwalker kill as my ret spec with holy gear and was #1 in healing. Sheath of Light max tick was 174,000. Has anyone else tried healing on this encounter?
02/08/10, 5:33 AM
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