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Old 11/03/09, 12:32 PM   #1231
baldilox
Glass Joe
 
Draenei Paladin
 
Aggramar
ret dps

very useful thread, however what i am having problems with is how rawr itemizes gear.

currently, i am over hit cap, 1 below exp with SoV glyph active, and gemmed according to the standards set forth here.

if i followed rawr to the letter i would be using the 245 leather feet out of togc10, however doing so would cost me all the expertise that greaves of the 7th give.

another question, and i apologise if its stupid, i have read that the rotation changes if above 7k ap, which i get when fully raid buffed. after trying it i actually lost dps.

and my last noob question, does our rotation change when fighting undead and the like? currently i go with the standard cs-jow-ds-fcfs, however have wondered if i should change my rotation when facing enemies that my spells will auto crit on.

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Old 11/03/09, 5:53 PM   #1232
lou.cicconi
Glass Joe
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Eredar
T10 ret libram

It seems like the new T10 libram will solve most of the problems with seal swapping in 3.3. If we can switch targets and switch seals without losing our 220 str (like our current 200 str with valiance), we can keep up our dps over target swapping fights.

This combined with the new T10 2pc bonus, as divine storm adds a lot of cleave damage, could offer a lot of dps increase in target switching and aoe fights.

I'm curious to see the dps with this new libram stacked with SoComm against a 4+ aoe fight.

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Old 11/03/09, 7:19 PM   #1233
 frmorrison
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Ashstrike
Human Paladin
 
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Originally Posted by baldilox View Post
if i followed rawr to the letter i would be using the 245 leather feet out of togc10, however doing so would cost me all the expertise that greaves of the 7th give.

and my last noob question, does our rotation change when fighting undead and the like? currently i go with the standard cs-jow-ds-fcfs, however have wondered if i should change my rotation when facing enemies that my spells will auto crit on.
The 245 Leather boots are Acidmaw Treads (I use them). They have expertise and hit, while not as much expertise as 7th Legion, is is a solid item.

Don't change your priority on Undead. The only thing that changes is you can use Holy Wrath. Use Judgement first.

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Old 11/04/09, 11:44 PM   #1234
Jeh
Von Kaiser
 
Human Paladin
 
Jubei'Thos
Originally Posted by baldilox View Post
very useful thread, however what i am having problems with is how rawr itemizes gear.

currently, i am over hit cap, 1 below exp with SoV glyph active, and gemmed according to the standards set forth here.

if i followed rawr to the letter i would be using the 245 leather feet out of togc10, however doing so would cost me all the expertise that greaves of the 7th give.
Having just looked at your gear I find it surprising RAWR is telling you to drop 7th for acidmaw. They have less expertise and a lot more hit on them, but you are already at the hit cap. I'm pretty sure for the set you have on armory the only boots that would be better are the 258 version of 7th.

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Old 11/05/09, 1:23 PM   #1235
baldilox
Glass Joe
 
Draenei Paladin
 
Aggramar
ty for the rotation advice, i have since went with jow-cs-ds fcfs since reading this threat and my dps has noticeabley increased.

if i equip the acidmaw boots my expertise drops below single didgits, it would be around 15 with SoV on, couple with rawr showing me to use 2 nightmare tears, well I just don't trust it, so I am sticking with greaves of the 7th legion till we can get into togc25.

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Old 11/05/09, 1:51 PM   #1236
Grigorim
Piston Honda
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Llane
Regarding rotation, in my current gear RAWR shows j>cs to be 1 dps lower than cs>j. I do have the 4 piece T9. I've tried to figure out why my values differ from conventional wisdom, but have come up blank. Has anyone else noted this?

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Old 11/05/09, 2:00 PM   #1237
 Zurm
The Ultimate in /facepalm Technology
 
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Blood Elf Paladin
 
Arthas
Originally Posted by Grigorim View Post
Regarding rotation, in my current gear RAWR shows j>cs to be 1 dps lower than cs>j. I do have the 4 piece T9. I've tried to figure out why my values differ from conventional wisdom, but have come up blank. Has anyone else noted this?
4pc T9 isn't a magical breaking point. The breaking point is around 2pc T9 and 7k ap raid buffed BEFORE procs. Your AP is incredibly low because of the extreme amount of agility gear you are wearing, and as a result you have higher crit but not enough AP to make the swap work (at your current gear level). I think you may have gone a bit overboard with the Agi gear, there is really no reason for someone in full 245 gear to not have at least 5k ap unbuffed.

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Old 11/05/09, 2:40 PM   #1238
Grigorim
Piston Honda
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Llane
Point taken, Zurm, but RAWR is the one that has been suggesting the AGI pieces I have over similar tier STR gear ever since I got the 2t9 bonus. Most of my pieces are BIS in my current setup for anything outside 10 totgc tribute runs and 25 man totgc (which my guild doesn't do and my server doesn't pug).

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Old 11/05/09, 3:26 PM   #1239
 frmorrison
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Ashstrike
Human Paladin
 
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Originally Posted by Grigorim View Post
Point taken, Zurm, but RAWR is the one that has been suggesting the AGI pieces I have over similar tier STR gear ever since I got the 2t9 bonus. Most of my pieces are BIS in my current setup for anything outside 10 totgc tribute runs and 25 man totgc (which my guild doesn't do and my server doesn't pug).
I looked at your Armory and without Heroic mode, you don't have much to get besides a small upgrade via Dual-Blade Butcher or maybe the Onynia Expertise Sword and using Bloodshed Band + Bloodbath girdle.

I never ran an agility Normal mode set in the BiS thread, so it is interesting that with medium AP but high Crit CS barely beats Judgement. That is something to keep in mind with Tier 10 with 2T9 going away that CS could be better than Judge.

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Old 11/06/09, 3:50 AM   #1240
Glutton
King Hippo
 
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Blood Elf Paladin
 
Kalecgos
SimulationCraft and Rawr agree in terms of what items constitute our BiS. The two programs disagree in terms of gems and enchants. Rawr states that the optimal cloak enchant is 22 AGI and the optimal yellow gem with a STR or AGI socket is an Inscribed Ametrine. In SimulationCraft for players below roughly 447 haste rating, the optimal cloak enchant is 23 haste and the optimal yellow gem with a STR or AGI socket bonus is a Fierce Ametrine.

I plotted the DPS results of tweaking my gear in SimulationCraft.

The first data point is my current armory. The second data point replaces +22 AGI to cloak with +23 haste rating. The third and subsequent data points replace Inscribed Ametrines with Fierce Ametrines one by one.

The priority order used was Judgement>Crusader Strike>Divine Storm>Consecration>Hammer of Wrath>Exorcism. We can see from the graph that the number of low priority ability uses decrease. Exorcism drops from 29.1 to 27.6, Consecration drops from 44.3 to 42.3, and Divine Storm drops from 44.8 to 42.7. The number of Crusader Strikes sky rockets from from 96.9 to 109.7. Even though it's the top priority ability, Judgement drops from 59.3 to 57.2 uses. I neglected to graph it, but the number of Hammer of Wraths stays nearly constant.

My question is does the local haste maxima observed around 447 haste rating (45.51% melee haste, 22.89% spell haste raid buffed) make sense? The DPS increase between 437 and 447 haste rating in SimulationCraft is quite significant - 83 in my current gear set. My initial guess is that 22.89% spell haste sufficiently decreases the GCD of Exorcism and Consecration in order to better align with a four second CS cooldown; however, the change in spell GCD between 437 and 447 haste rating is on the scale of a few milliseconds (1.22389 seconds down to 1.220604 seconds).

Last edited by Glutton : 11/06/09 at 4:21 AM.

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Old 11/06/09, 5:28 AM   #1241
Capstone
Piston Honda
 
Human Paladin
 
Lightbringer
Originally Posted by Glutton View Post
SimulationCraft and Rawr agree in terms of what items constitute our BiS. The two programs disagree in terms of gems and enchants. Rawr states that the optimal cloak enchant is 22 AGI and the optimal yellow gem with a STR or AGI socket is an Inscribed Ametrine. In SimulationCraft for players below roughly 447 haste rating, the optimal cloak enchant is 23 haste and the optimal yellow gem with a STR or AGI socket bonus is a Fierce Ametrine.
I haven't seen Rawr suggest a yellow gem for an AGI bonus...

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Old 11/06/09, 7:54 AM   #1242
Wrathblood
Don Flamenco
 
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Blood Elf Paladin
 
Drenden
Glutton, could it be a harmonic effect like Neraya was suggesting about Redcape's work over in the 3.3 thread?

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Old 11/06/09, 8:07 AM   #1243
dedmonwakeen
Bald Bull
 
dedmonwakeen
Undead Priest
 
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Originally Posted by Glutton View Post
My question is does the local haste maxima observed around 447 haste rating (45.51% melee haste, 22.89% spell haste raid buffed) make sense? The DPS increase between 437 and 447 haste rating in SimulationCraft is quite significant - 83 in my current gear set. My initial guess is that 22.89% spell haste sufficiently decreases the GCD of Exorcism and Consecration in order to better align with a four second CS cooldown; however, the change in spell GCD between 437 and 447 haste rating is on the scale of a few milliseconds (1.22389 seconds down to 1.220604 seconds).
I am working on smoothing this out through the introduction of a "wait" action. However, in order for it to be effective I need to first standardize a considerable amount of "named" data (such as cooldowns, dot durations, etc) so that we can use arbitrary action conditionals:

actions+=...
actions+=wait,some_action.cooldown<=0.5
actions+=some_action
actions+=some_other_action

In some cases it is better to wait a fraction of time for a very high-dps action to come off CD or finish ticking, etc.


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Old 11/06/09, 8:14 AM   #1244
Neraya
Banned
 
Human Paladin
 
Khadgar (EU)
Originally Posted by Glutton View Post
My question is does the local haste maxima observed around 447 haste rating (45.51% melee haste, 22.89% spell haste raid buffed) make sense? The DPS increase between 437 and 447 haste rating in SimulationCraft is quite significant - 83 in my current gear set. My initial guess is that 22.89% spell haste sufficiently decreases the GCD of Exorcism and Consecration in order to better align with a four second CS cooldown; however, the change in spell GCD between 437 and 447 haste rating is on the scale of a few milliseconds (1.22389 seconds down to 1.220604 seconds).
It does make sense yes...

At 0 haste, both melee and spells have identical GCD.
As you get more haste, the GCD on spells (cons, exo) becomes shorter and sometimes adding a bit more haste will alter the rotation. Sometimes quite drastically AND unexpectedly.

If you plot out a perfect FCFS rotation using 1.5melee and spell GCD and compare it to a rotation with 1.5 melee and 1.49 spell gcd, you actually get off worse. Over a 5min fight this results in 2 less CS, 1 less Judge & 1 less DS and an extra 7 seconds of time waiting on CD's.
Wait. What ? More haste means less abilities hit ? In this particular case yes. Sometimes changing haste only a small bit can have a big impact. A slightly faster weapon swing speed will compensate this slightly but overall it'll still be a negative.


In reality things aren't as bad because human inaccuracy, server response time etc will add 'random' delays between each spell making a sustainable "perfect" following of the rotation impossible.

Minor changes in the rotation asside, the first major change in the rotation happens when you get enough haste to make the spell GCD 1.25s. and yes, the change is major even compared with 1 less haste rating.


I'm not sure if rawr models gear upgrades accounting for the fact that a change in haste would change the rotation.

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Old 11/06/09, 8:18 AM   #1245
 Zurm
The Ultimate in /facepalm Technology
 
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Blood Elf Paladin
 
Arthas
The only reason Rawr is prefering crit so highly right now is due to the 2pc T9 bonus. I expect if you want to find the root cause, you should look to differences on that front regarding the cloak enchant.

As for gems... haste is not as good of a stat as crit is, even without 2pc T9. I'd have to look at the code they are using, but not enough of our damage is affected by haste to warrant such results, in my opinion. I could be wrong though; haste is one of those stats that only gets more attractive as gear (primarily due to AP totals) increases.

Originally Posted by Neraya View Post
I'm not sure if rawr models gear upgrades accounting for the fact that a change in haste would change the rotation.
It does. Every time it re-calculates (gear swap, talent change, buff change, etc) it re-runs the rotation stuff.

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