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Old 11/06/09, 10:28 AM   #1246
Brekkie
Glass Joe
 
Draenei Paladin
 
Windrunner
Minor changes in the rotation asside, the first major change in the rotation happens when you get enough haste to make the spell GCD 1.25s.
What is the haste level to reach that 1.25 sec spell gcd? approximately 400 haste rating pre-raid buffs?

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Old 11/06/09, 12:12 PM   #1247
 frmorrison
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Another factor that isn't covered to well by Rawr/Simcraft is movement. There aren't anymore Patchwerk encounters, so as you are running from fire or running to kill the next add, haste loses some value (haste isn't helping if you can't hit something), while crit is marginally better (you can Exo/HoW/Taunt while running).

However, on a stand still encounter, that is interesting that 447 haste (does this include 5% spell haste from Totem?) seems to give a nice dps increase.

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Old 11/06/09, 1:50 PM   #1248
dedmonwakeen
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dedmonwakeen
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Originally Posted by frmorrison View Post
Another factor that isn't covered to well by Rawr/Simcraft is movement. There aren't anymore Patchwerk encounters, so as you are running from fire or running to kill the next add, haste loses some value (haste isn't helping if you can't hit something), while crit is marginally better (you can Exo/HoW/Taunt while running).

However, on a stand still encounter, that is interesting that 447 haste (does this include 5% spell haste from Totem?) seems to give a nice dps increase.
SimC provides a variety of raid events, including movement. How well they correspond to real raid events is certainly debatable.....

Ex:
raid_events+=movement,duration=5.0,cooldown=45.0

By default, if duration_stddev and cooldown_stddev are not specified, they are set to 10% of the given average value.

When players are moving the sim turns off auto_attack and only allows ranged instant-cast abilities.


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Old 11/06/09, 2:55 PM   #1249
Rurahk
Von Kaiser
 
Human Paladin
 
Shandris
Originally Posted by Glutton View Post
My question is does the local haste maxima observed around 447 haste rating (45.51% melee haste, 22.89% spell haste raid buffed) make sense? The DPS increase between 437 and 447 haste rating in SimulationCraft is quite significant - 83 in my current gear set. My initial guess is that 22.89% spell haste sufficiently decreases the GCD of Exorcism and Consecration in order to better align with a four second CS cooldown; however, the change in spell GCD between 437 and 447 haste rating is on the scale of a few milliseconds (1.22389 seconds down to 1.220604 seconds).
Does this amount of haste allow an extra melee swing+seal proc and/or ability use over the course of the fight? The cumulative effect of spell haste lowering spell GCD and faster melee swings over a 5 minute fight can cause sudden jumps in DPS for relatively small values of haste, as you are showing. Try changing the fight length to rule this out, perhaps averaging several sims in the range of +/- 5 seconds.

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Old 11/06/09, 3:10 PM   #1250
Glutton
King Hippo
 
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Blood Elf Paladin
 
Kalecgos
Originally Posted by Capstone View Post
I haven't seen Rawr suggest a yellow gem for an AGI bonus...
Perhaps this is curtailed to certain pieces of gear. For example in our no restriction BiS, you'll observe a higher DPS increase from placing an Inscribed Ametrine + Bold Cardinal Ruby in the Belt of the Pitiless to obtain a +6 agi socket bonus.

Originally Posted by frmorrison View Post
Another factor that isn't covered to well by Rawr/Simcraft is movement. There aren't anymore Patchwerk encounters, so as you are running from fire or running to kill the next add, haste loses some value (haste isn't helping if you can't hit something), while crit is marginally better (you can Exo/HoW/Taunt while running).

However, on a stand still encounter, that is interesting that 447 haste (does this include 5% spell haste from Totem?) seems to give a nice dps increase.
I would disagree. Festergut and Rotface are fairly close to Patchwerk from a melee perspective (tanks and ranged have to do more work, however). Lord Jaraxxus falls into the same boat depending on your luck with Legion Flame and guild needs (i.e. is you switching overkill for portals?). Algalon is basically a tank and spank as well.

Yes, this DPS jump was observed with 3% all haste and 5% spell haste (along with 20% melee haste, but that doesn't affect your spell GCD).

If this haste/rotation jump is something more than an aberration in Simcraft, you'd probably have to stack quite a bit more than 447 haste in order take advantage of the jump due to individual variations in key stroke input and network latency.

Originally Posted by Rurahk View Post
Does this amount of haste allow an extra melee swing+seal proc and/or ability use over the course of the fight? The cumulative effect of spell haste lowering spell GCD and faster melee swings over a 6minute fight can cause sudden jumps in DPS for relatively small values of haste, as you are showing. Try changing the fight length to rule this out, perhaps averaging several sims in the range of +/- 5 seconds.
Yes, however the increase in melee swings in fairly linear. SimulationCraft will report increases in fractional melee hits down to the tenths unit. It appears that each incase in 10 haste produces roughly one more melee hit in a 8.3 minute long encounter. On the graph you can observe that going from 447 to 457 (+10 haste, -10 crit) and so and on so forth produce small increases in DPS, most likely due to the effect you describe.

Although you might have hit on something. There is a sharp, nonlinear increase in the number of Seal of Vengeance procs going from 437 to 447 haste - from 340.2 procs to 351.5 procs. In all other parts of the graph it's roughly a 1 proc increase per 10 haste. I assume that's related to the increase in number of Crusader Strikes? Which would again point to something fundamentally changing in terms of GCD alignments in our rotation.

Last edited by Glutton : 11/06/09 at 3:31 PM.

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Old 11/07/09, 2:35 AM   #1251
Raanis
Von Kaiser
 
Draenei Paladin
 
Bloodhoof
Originally Posted by Brekkie View Post
What is the haste level to reach that 1.25 sec spell gcd? approximately 400 haste rating pre-raid buffs?
From a raw haste perspective, the 1.5 sec spell GCD is reduced to 1 sec flat at 50% spell haste (1639.5 haste rating), so to get to a 1.25 sec spell GCD only from haste rating would require 820 haste rating. Calculating in raid buffs like Swift Retribution and Wrath of Air Totem would reduce the needed haste to somewhere around 510 rating, unless my math is off.

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Old 11/07/09, 5:24 AM   #1252
dragtar
Glass Joe
 
diomedes
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Non-US/EU Server (EU)
do I understand that right, that haste will give ret a more fairly dps boost than agi ?? or do I misinterpreting the threads above ??

the other thing is rawr , rawr implicating mostly agi and ap eq instead of str eq after reaching basic caps, should I ignore this and going straight to str eq ??

than a question, I saw thta my normal attack hits incl. a lot of glancing, sometimes 10 - 15 %, is there any way to reduce the glancing quota ??


(sry for my bad english)

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Old 11/07/09, 12:25 PM   #1253
Noraj
Don Flamenco
 
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Dwarf Paladin
 
Lightbringer
Originally Posted by dragtar View Post
do I understand that right, that haste will give ret a more fairly dps boost than agi ?? or do I misinterpreting the threads above ??

the other thing is rawr , rawr implicating mostly agi and ap eq instead of str eq after reaching basic caps, should I ignore this and going straight to str eq ??

than a question, I saw thta my normal attack hits incl. a lot of glancing, sometimes 10 - 15 %, is there any way to reduce the glancing quota ??


(sry for my bad english)
The reason it is recommending the AP / AGI gear is due to the better stat itemization on leather (if you want to learn more, there's some discussion about it earlier in the thread), as well as the high value of crit chance with the tier nine two-piece bonus.

As for glancing blows, as long as your weapon skill for the type of weapon you are currently using is at the highest possible level, glancing blows cannot be reduced any further.

"The question is not how far we are going to take it... the question is, do you possess the constitution to go as far as needed?" - Il Duce

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Old 11/08/09, 6:18 PM   #1254
janrael
Von Kaiser
 
Tauren Druid
 
Dunemaul
Originally Posted by Raanis View Post
From a raw haste perspective, the 1.5 sec spell GCD is reduced to 1 sec flat at 50% spell haste (1639.5 haste rating), so to get to a 1.25 sec spell GCD only from haste rating would require 820 haste rating. Calculating in raid buffs like Swift Retribution and Wrath of Air Totem would reduce the needed haste to somewhere around 510 rating, unless my math is off.
Doesn't work like this - 50% haste gets you a 1 sec GCD, but 25% haste gets you a 1.2 second cast time - you only need 20% haste to get to 1.25 seconds.

Math:
Consider a 1500 second period of time. With no haste, that's 1000 gcds. With 20% haste, that should be 1200 gcds (20% haste means 20% more casts in the same amount of time). 1500 seconds and 1200 gcds gives a gcd of 1.25.

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Old 11/10/09, 11:31 AM   #1255
dragwiz3
Glass Joe
 
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Blood Elf Paladin
 
Zangarmarsh
Ok im sure im the right place for this question. I play a pally on live and i use RAWR. My question is this my dps is never what RAWR says it should be. Ive checked my spec my glyphs and my rotation and still nothing. It is usually 500-600 lower than what it should be according to RAWR. Could this just be a timing issue on my part when im goin through my rotation.

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Old 11/10/09, 12:25 PM   #1256
Glutton
King Hippo
 
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Blood Elf Paladin
 
Kalecgos
Originally Posted by dragwiz3 View Post
Ok im sure im the right place for this question. I play a pally on live and i use RAWR. My question is this my dps is never what RAWR says it should be. Ive checked my spec my glyphs and my rotation and still nothing. It is usually 500-600 lower than what it should be according to RAWR. Could this just be a timing issue on my part when im goin through my rotation.
A large part of the difference between your observed DPS and what is reported by Rawr can be accounted for by mistakes in configuring Rawr to reflect the encounter.

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Old 11/10/09, 2:24 PM   #1257
 frmorrison
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Ashstrike
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Originally Posted by dragwiz3 View Post
Ok im sure im the right place for this question. I play a pally on live and i use RAWR. My question is this my dps is never what RAWR says it should be. Ive checked my spec my glyphs and my rotation and still nothing. It is usually 500-600 lower than what it should be according to RAWR. Could this just be a timing issue on my part when im goin through my rotation.
Only on Patchwerk would Rawr be nearly correct. Besides him, most other encounters involve moving or some adds that need to be taken care of. In a future release of Rawr it will have options to attempt to model the boss encounter.

Rawr is still the best tool out there.

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Old 11/10/09, 2:49 PM   #1258
Glutton
King Hippo
 
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Blood Elf Paladin
 
Kalecgos
I would highly recommend SimulationCraft as an alternative. Its data breakdown for each ability is much more informative than Rawr. I find myself using it as a measuring stick versus my WMO or WOL parses to evaluate to what degree I'm slacking on my rotation or melee hits.

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Old 11/10/09, 3:58 PM   #1259
dedmonwakeen
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dedmonwakeen
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It really isn't about one or the other. SimulationCraft and Rawr compliment each other very well. However, SimC has a steep learning curve and Rawr's formulation architecture allows for a nice gear optimizer, so for most users Rawr is usually the first place to check.


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Old 11/11/09, 6:05 PM   #1260
Kvaern
Von Kaiser
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Sunstrider (EU)
Did they change something about auras in the minipatch this week?

Being the only ret in a 10 togc today I had the 3% bonuses drop midfight after switching to fr aura and I noticed the bonus also drops if you zone with a non ret aura enabled (Not sure if t also did this previously).

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