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Old 08/08/09, 1:20 PM   #201
Hogun
Glass Joe
 
Human Paladin
 
Medivh
Originally Posted by Mark Free View Post
Hi, everyone.

I just noticed yesterday, as soon as we got XT (HM) below 20% and I started to use Hammer of Wrath, my DPS went from 6900-7000 (as it was for the most fight) down to 6600. Does HoW resets timer again?
Quartz does not indicate such thing, but again, addons are quite messy at the moment.
With out a parse to look at, that is probably your dps continuing to decline after the heart phase.

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Old 08/08/09, 3:07 PM   #202
Collections
Glass Joe
 
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Human Paladin
 
Arygos
In your 3.1 thread you also list tailoring as:
Tailoring: Embroidery on cloak (proc worth ~90 AP) at the expense of 22 agility
Is this an oversight or have the improvements to Swordguard Embroidery not really worked out to be that much of a difference?

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Old 08/08/09, 3:41 PM   #203
Arikah
pokazhet lik sveta istina
 
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Blood Elf Paladin
 
Mal'Ganis
It is an oversight, though I don't personally know any paladins who are tailors. If you can get the correct numbers for it I'll update accordingly.

Also while messing around in Isle, I equipped the command glyph for giggles - it was 4 am but I am pretty sure I saw it refunding mana even through full absorbs. Would anyone care to confirm this?

RETIRED / ACCOUNT INACTIVE, reachable on steam

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Old 08/08/09, 3:50 PM   #204
flyingtoastr
Bald Bull
 
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Human Paladin
 
Draka
Originally Posted by Arikah View Post
Also while messing around in Isle, I equipped the command glyph for giggles - it was 4 am but I am pretty sure I saw it refunding mana even through full absorbs. Would anyone care to confirm this?
It wouldn't surprise me, the old SoB glyph also refunded mana regardless of actual damage. I'll hop on and test it in a few though.

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Old 08/08/09, 4:18 PM   #205
Collections
Glass Joe
 
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Human Paladin
 
Arygos
Originally Posted by Arikah View Post
It is an oversight, though I don't personally know any paladins who are tailors. If you can get the correct numbers for it I'll update accordingly.
Currently the new proc is 400 ap for 15 seconds on damaging melee / ranged attacks. I'm told the ICD is 45 seconds as usual. Another ret in guild is leveling it and says it's very similar to the Berserk proc. Rawr is showing it would be a 63 dps increase over dropping JC on my profile.

Once he hits 400 and can get numbers on its up time I'll get back with something more solid then. I'm mostly asking to see if anyone else is considering the swap.

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Old 08/08/09, 4:45 PM   #206
HamSlammer
Don Flamenco
 
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Tauren Paladin
 
Emerald Dream
Each crafting profession gives, roughly, the same AP for the profession specific bonuses.
  • Inscription: Shoulder enchant Master's Inscription of the Axe - grants an additional 80 attack power.
  • Enchanting: Enchant Rings (Assaultx2) Which gives 80 Attack power.
  • Leatherworking: Fur Lining - Which gives 80 additional attack power over the standard bracer enchant.
  • Blacksmithing: Socket Bracer and Socket Gloves which can allow you to socket 2 additional Bold Cardinal Rubies for 40 Strength total.
  • JewelCrafting: you can make 3 unique gems Bold Dragon's Eye which gives you 42 additional Strength over the conventional ones.
  • Tailoring: Cloak Enchant - Swordguard Embroidery - 450 AP for 15 seconds on a 25% proc with a 45 second internal CD.

Best case scenario, it's 133.3 static AP. However, the reason this crafter specific bonus is a good choice versus others is because we're replacing a less attractive stat (Agility/Haste) for AP. Blacksmithing and Jewelcrafting are still superior to Leatherworking, Inscription, and Enchanting for Retribution because of Kings and Divine Strength.

Swordguard Embroidery yields the same AP bonus as Berserking (400) but Berserking has no internal CD, making it potentially 3x times as strong.

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Old 08/08/09, 7:29 PM   #207
 frmorrison
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Ashstorm
Human Paladin
 
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Originally Posted by Collections View Post
In your 3.1 thread you also list tailoring as:


Is this an oversight or have the improvements to Swordguard Embroidery not really worked out to be that much of a difference?
What you quoted was correct (in 3.1). Tailoring got buffed with the other professions, now it is worth about ~130 AP over time while losing 22 Agility (worth about 30 AP for me). So tailoring would give you a 100 AP gain while the other AP professions give 80 AP.

Millions of words are written annually purporting to tell how to beat the races, whereas the best possible advice on the subject is found in the three monosyllables: 'Do not try.'

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Old 08/08/09, 8:30 PM   #208
Wrathblood
Piston Honda
 
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Blood Elf Paladin
 
Drenden
delete

I can't subtract.

Last edited by Wrathblood : 08/08/09 at 8:36 PM.

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Old 08/08/09, 9:31 PM   #209
 frmorrison
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Ashstorm
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Hotfixes:

Hand of Reckoning is no longer able to be used on targets that are immune to taunt, including players.

I tried it on XT's heart and it didn't do anything, that was fast .

Millions of words are written annually purporting to tell how to beat the races, whereas the best possible advice on the subject is found in the three monosyllables: 'Do not try.'

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Old 08/08/09, 9:44 PM   #210
Taraxuss
Glass Joe
 
Dwarf Paladin
 
Gilneas
Originally Posted by frmorrison View Post
Hotfixes:

Hand of Reckoning is no longer able to be used on targets that are immune to taunt, including players.

I tried it on XT's heart and it didn't do anything, that was fast .
Confirmed, it did not work on XT's heart or Kologarn's arms. It does still work on things like Freya's Snap Lashers, however.

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Old 08/08/09, 10:41 PM   #211
 frmorrison
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Ashstorm
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Originally Posted by Taraxuss View Post
It does still work on things like Freya's Snap Lashers, however.
The Snap Lashers have an aggro table (but it seems to wipe every few seconds) and taunt will affect them for a bit. Anyway, the skill is still outstanding for Prot Pallies and for soloing.

Millions of words are written annually purporting to tell how to beat the races, whereas the best possible advice on the subject is found in the three monosyllables: 'Do not try.'

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Old 08/08/09, 10:45 PM   #212
Mahdrid
Glass Joe
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Suramar
For what it's worth - The XT heart seems to be retaining the 5 stack Debuff *if* you manage to bring it out very quickly after the first time your DPS it (Assuming you aren't doing hard mode, obviously)

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Old 08/08/09, 11:30 PM   #213
Psykewne
Von Kaiser
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Talnivarr (EU)
Thought I would post some updated numbers for engineering bonuses.

Boot enchant - 24 crit rating + 5 second speed boost every 3 mins
Cloak enchant - 23 agi + parachute every 30 seconds
Gloves - 340 haste for 12 seconds every minute or 1654-2020 rocket dmg every 45 seconds (this can crit more on this below)
Saronite bombs - a bomb you can toss every minute

So first the boots.

crit rating is currently worth 0.91~ dps in my current gear while ap is worth 0.716 dps.
0.91~*24=21.9
0.716*32=22.912

basically it's so close you might as well use the engineering boots if you're above hit cap since the speed boost can be quite handy on some fights (yogg saron especially if you get a bad fear or brain link)

The cloak next

in my current gear agility comes out a tiny bit better than haste and this cloak enchant gives 1 agility above the current best agility cloak enchant so it's a straight win... although a tiny one. Agility is worth about 0.9 so it nearly balances out losing the 1 dps above to take the rocket boots.

Gloves
The choice here is a haste use effect or a single shot dmg use.
haste is currently worth for me 0.796~ dps, the use effect is worth (340*12)/60 = 68
so the hyperspeed accelerator is worth 54.128, however this does account for the fact that every other use of this effect can be used with avenging wrath which increase it's effectiveness by 20% when used. So to work that out we can take half of the current dps granted and then add 20% of that value to the original figure.
54.128/2 = 27.064, 20% of which is 5.4128, making the final value of the accelerator assuming you use it with avenging wrath when ever possible is
59.5408, this however doesn't account for trinket procs etc happening while under the haste effect so the worth is a bit higher on average. This is 28 dp over the crusher enchant

The rocket however does (without crits) an average of 1837 dmg every 45 seconds, this is 40.82 dps. However it can crit. The data on this is very conflicting, it certainly has a pretty strong crit rate however. The crits seem to be doing 150% dmg. So taking a crit rate of 50% would add around another 10 dps to that figure. However there's definate evidence that it has some scaling with some buffs/stats, ie, it hits non-crit for higher than 2020 for me.
Rawr is listing it as 68 dps right now, so i'm assuming this is modelling based on it being affected by all % dmg modifiers at least which would make sense as we have 6-9% modification on all damage with an aura up and from crusader and a 6% increase would correlate with the top end non-crit hits i was getting tonight while testing.

Anyway assuming all the scaling assumptions are correct the pyro rocket is worth 68 dps according to rawr which is 37dps over the crusher enchant.

And finally the lesser known benefit

Saronite bombs
These work out to 22 dps used once per minute if you get no crits. You can fit them in within a global cooldown if you're fast losing no dps time to make use of them netting the full 22 dps bonus. They are also aoe which has an impact for fights such as mimiron or thorim and so on. They are instant cast btw so easy to slip into rotation or use while on the move. It also does not reset swing timer.

The above puts engineering at around a 59dps increase for ret paladin. 2 bold cardinal rubies from blacksmithing does come out to around 73dps however so it;s not an optimal choice.

However the intriguing part of the rocket and bombs is they do all their dmg in a front loaded fashion whereas stat based increases are based upon constant attacking (ie. anything that upsets your cycle such as using sacrifice wastes a tiny portion of your stat bonus in effect along with the normal penalty associated with stopping to use support skills). This leads to them being very reliable increases in damage, especially since they are ranged and suffer little to no restrictions on use (they are not spells so you cannot be silenced and prevented from using them).

It's all rather situational and so on, but there are some very interesting merit for engineering with the utilities offered along with a very respectable dps benefit that isn't much behind the stronger stat professions.

Anyway I thought a more full inclusion might be useful as there alot of engineers who enjoy alot of the perks and prefer to keep it rather than changing to something offering a little more dps so would also aim to get the most out of the profession to limit that loss to justify the other perks like jeeves .

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Old 08/08/09, 11:31 PM   #214
Psykewne
Von Kaiser
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Talnivarr (EU)
Originally Posted by Mahdrid View Post
For what it's worth - The XT heart seems to be retaining the 5 stack Debuff *if* you manage to bring it out very quickly after the first time your DPS it (Assuming you aren't doing hard mode, obviously)
Ah yes, the heart is the same mob each time so retains all debuffs (however they do tick down while it is concealed i believe, although i could be wrong on this)

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Old 08/09/09, 1:22 AM   #215
HamSlammer
Don Flamenco
 
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Tauren Paladin
 
Emerald Dream
@Psykewne

The Hand-Mounted Pyro Rocket scales with any All% modifier, like Avenging Wrath, Crusade, and Sanctified Retribution, and any Fire% modifier, of which we have none. It also utilizes spell Hit/Crit for it's calculations.

As for the Hyperspeed Accelerators, I personally think their quantified DPS value is lowballed. There's variable stacking potential (more proc/AW/trinket contribution relative to # of auto-attacks) and a decreased ramp up time for Seal of Vengeance. The 340 Haste Rating cuts almost 1.4 seconds off of the stacking time of SoV, assuming 20% and 3% Haste buffs. This time reduction does get smaller the more passive Haste you get, about a 1/10 of a second per 100 Haste but we're still looking at a 1~ second reduction in 3.2 Best in Slot.

Originally Posted by Psykewne View Post
The above puts engineering at around a 59dps increase for ret paladin. 2 bold cardinal rubies from blacksmithing does come out to around 73dps however so it;s not an optimal choice.
I don't believe it's fair to Engineering to stick a singular value on it's DPS contribution, as it varies greatly depending on the fight. I feel Engineering is the best profession in any fight where you'd normally move for 4~ seconds.

As an example, it takes roughly 4-5 seconds to get from the back of an illusion in Yogg-Saron's brain chamber to his actual brain. Nitro-Boosts (150% speed increase) push that down to 1.5-2 second travel time, giving you an extra 2.5-3 seconds of DPS time. Figure you do 6000 DPS, that's an extra 18k damage over the course of the fight. We did 10man, One Light last week in a bit over 8 minutes. 18k more damage in an 8 minute span is an extra 35~ DPS.

While my example is purely anecdotal, the values hold true. I remember there was a thread in early Wrath about how Unholy Aura (the +20% movement speed aura) was bar-none the best raid DPS increase if you had to move for a certain amount of time. This is the same concept. Less moving, more DPS time.

Last edited by HamSlammer : 08/09/09 at 2:22 AM.

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Old 08/09/09, 2:18 AM   #216
Psykewne
Von Kaiser
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Talnivarr (EU)
@HamSlammer

I 100% agree with you that engineering is far too difficult to place a clear dps value on, the numbers provided were purely just there since most people will want at least something to go by.

I wouldn't trade my rocket boots for anything.

Thanks for the clarity on the rocket launcher damage, was sure it was using various modifiers but for some reason there's a absolute lack of clarity when discussing the engineering tinkers in most places.

It's interesting to hear thoughts from a fellow engineer as it does seem the benefits of the proffession are somewhat ignored when compared to jewelcrafting and blacksmithing.

I guess it might be better to just say that engineering is comparable to other proffessions on dps gain based upon your personal application of the various benefits and tinkers.

Last edited by Psykewne : 08/09/09 at 2:29 AM.

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Old 08/09/09, 4:34 AM   #217
Heck
Von Kaiser
 
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Blood Elf Paladin
 
Velen
So anyone get 25 Triumph emblems yet for the SoV libram? (nevermind... doing the math in my head it isn't possible just quite yet.)

But anyway, THIS INFO was recently posted on a thread on MMO Champ. Supposedly, there is NO ICD on the libram. Wanted to get reaffirmation on this (since I take random posts on their forums with a BLOCK of salt). Will still probably be the first badge piece most retribution paladins grab, regardless.

Last edited by Heck : 08/09/09 at 1:28 PM.

Of course, that's just me... I could be wrong.
-Dennis Miller

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Old 08/09/09, 6:25 AM   #218
Endoscient
King Hippo
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Illidan
Reports from GMs on game mechanics have been historically inaccurate, so I wouldn't really believe that as a source. Getting the maximum number of badges allowed per day, the earliest someone will be able to get it is this Tuesday or Wednesday. I would just hold off on spending your badges until we know for sure what its ICD is.

Last edited by Endoscient : 08/09/09 at 6:44 AM.


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Old 08/09/09, 6:52 AM   #219
 gcbirzan
Bald Bull
 
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Human Paladin
 
Darksorrow (EU)
Originally Posted by Endoscient View Post
Reports from GMs on game mechanics have been historically inaccurate, so I wouldn't really believe that as a source. Getting the maximum number of badges allowed per day, the earliest someone will be able to get it is this Tuesday or Wednesday. I would just hold off on spending your badges until we know for sure what its ICD is.
You can get a refund in two hours, that should be enough time to test.

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Old 08/09/09, 10:47 AM   #220
Malleus
King Hippo
 
Human Paladin
 
Bronze Dragonflight (EU)
Originally Posted by gcbirzan View Post
You can get a refund in two hours, that should be enough time to test.
Having been refunded, can you not simply buy it again on a new two-hour refund schedule? That would give unlimited time to test.

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Old 08/09/09, 11:00 AM   #221
 frmorrison
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Ashstorm
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Originally Posted by Malleus View Post
Having been refunded, can you not simply buy it again on a new two-hour refund schedule? That would give unlimited time to test.
Even with an ICD the new libram is better than the S7 Libram. You should be able to do that, but I don't see the point.

Millions of words are written annually purporting to tell how to beat the races, whereas the best possible advice on the subject is found in the three monosyllables: 'Do not try.'

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Old 08/09/09, 11:33 AM   #222
Psykewne
Von Kaiser
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Talnivarr (EU)
Originally Posted by Malleus View Post
Having been refunded, can you not simply buy it again on a new two-hour refund schedule? That would give unlimited time to test.
theoretically yes. The refund system is supposed to be controled since once you enchant/gem the item it can't be traded, however relics get around this since they cannot have any of the above done to them. In theory if you were clever (and wanted to waste a bit of raid time) you could use 25 emblems of triumph to maintain all 3 librams as you needed them, simply renewing your current one or trading for a different one every 2 hours or less, kinda handy seeing how slow the emblems will come in and how expensive the items are, if you dual spec then this would in effect save you 25 badges letting you access a libram for both your specs on demand.

However this is a rather silly thing as the time taken to switch every two hours would be disruptive to raids... however i'm suprised blizzard hasn't spotted this, i'm assuming a hotfix to control this issue will come thick and fast if people actually took advantage of the scenario.

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Old 08/09/09, 1:42 PM   #223
Redcape
King Hippo
 
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Dwarf Paladin
 
Vek'nilash
Originally Posted by Psykewne View Post
theoretically yes. The refund system is supposed to be controled since once you enchant/gem the item it can't be traded, however relics get around this since they cannot have any of the above done to them. In theory if you were clever (and wanted to waste a bit of raid time) you could use 25 emblems of triumph to maintain all 3 librams as you needed them, simply renewing your current one or trading for a different one every 2 hours or less, kinda handy seeing how slow the emblems will come in and how expensive the items are, if you dual spec then this would in effect save you 25 badges letting you access a libram for both your specs on demand.

However this is a rather silly thing as the time taken to switch every two hours would be disruptive to raids... however i'm suprised blizzard hasn't spotted this, i'm assuming a hotfix to control this issue will come thick and fast if people actually took advantage of the scenario.
There is no way as a raidleader that I would put up with that. The point of dual spec is to allow quick swaps that DON'T require going back to town and messing with vendors there. Also, if you had to take a town break every 1.5 hours of raid time to renew your gear you would drive your raidmates nuts in the same fashion. It simply isn't worth the upgrade benefit over simply buying the libram that most benefits your most used spec and using a marginally worse one in your offspec.

Not to say a few random people won't do this a few times, but in serious guilds this just isn't going to be something people do aside from doing a little proc testing.

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Old 08/09/09, 4:50 PM   #224
Boggus
Glass Joe
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Draenor (EU)
I have had a slight headache lately. At times my tooltip stops displaying the 3% multiplier by my weapon damage from sanctified retribution. Normaly it would say [weapon damage]x106%, that is 3% from Sanctified Retribution and 3% from Crusade, but then all of a suddenly it is down to 103% even though I have not disabled my aura nor are there any other raid buffs of the same type overwritting it (Stoneskin Totem overwriting Devotion Aura.) This can be in the middle of a fight or out of combat.

I tried to search and find if others are having the same problem. Is it a tooltip display error or is my Sanctified Retribution buff being randomly disabled?

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Old 08/09/09, 7:30 PM   #225
SoulJCL
Glass Joe
 
Human Paladin
 
Silvermoon
Due to having this [Libram of Discord] and the nerf of the damage that CS does, why wouldn't DS be at a higher priority? Shouldn't it be doing more damage?

Also with the OP rotation, it starts with CS, but wouldn't it be better to put a Judgement on the target first for the added crit?

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