• frmorrison

I have never clicked the Bloodlust under the Buffs tab. I only click Bloodlust under Options.

I am listing Agility/AP items because it is the best overall. I guess since most Paladins have to go for Strength based items, it seems Agility item lists should be listed later.


I put up some Plate item lists.

DK - Ashbane Failure is the condiment that gives success its flavor.

 

Aviendha

First, let me thank you guys for the great work, you've been a tremendous help so far

Anyone could try to come up with a BiS list consisting of Hard Mode 10 and Normal mode 25 (iLevel 245 items) ? My guild certainly won't make it to the 25-man hard modes, but has had some success in 10-man.

I've tried the Rawr optimizer but some of its choices seem really strange and I don't trust them (like the Blood of the Old Gods in the first trinket slot). Or maybe I just don't have the right parameters or whatever :/

Also, I can't seem to open any of frmorrison's files with rawr's latest version :/

 

• frmorrison

All you will get from me is the 25 man normal gear listing.

There are two fixes you have to do with the current Rawr:
Load your character from armory, then click "Load possible upgrades from Wowhead". Next, edit the new Libram to have a 10 second internal cooldown.

DK - Ashbane Failure is the condiment that gives success its flavor.

 

Gormal

I must be doing something wrong then since I got exactly the advertised dps last night manually inputting the plate/leather BiS items but checking off both bloodlusts. Directly uploading your xml files shows less than you're getting (9110 where I was expecting 9375 on the BiS plate for instance). I'm using 2.2.13 and I don't see any errors in the set bonuses or item procs that might cause it.

 

• frmorrison

It seems our FCFS priorities are different (I have different values for the damage done per ability and I use CS>Judge>HoW) and it appears your Libram has a 45 second cooldown, while mine has a 10 second (it may actually be 6 seconds, I haven't confirmed yet).

There is a 3rd fix (for Blood Elves only), edit any Tier 9's set bonus's gear field to read "Turalyon's Battlegear" (this is fixed in the next release).

DK - Ashbane Failure is the condiment that gives success its flavor.

 

Gormal

I think that I'm actually getting errors with the horde t9 bonuses since more checking shows correct dps from the alliance lists, but the horde ones aren't correct. Editing 2 of the set pieces to be part of Turalyon's Battlegear corrects the discrepancy. Changing all 4 pieces actually upgrades it to 9441 dps on the plate BiS.

Edit: My mistake, I thought that this fix had already gone. Also, I know that its still being discussed in the other thread, but changing the FCFS to HoW>J>CS results in a slight improvement.

I changed the FCFS to J>CS>DS>Cons>HoW>Exo and in addition to seeing better overall dps in listed gear, the value of crit appears to have gone up enough where socketing str/crit even to pick up a 4str socket bonus results in a somewhat minor gain. The difference is pretty minimal and using orange gems with other priorities yielded inferior numbers.

 

Neraya

Unless something recently changed, and I missed the big news about it. Rawr averages out "on use" effects.
What makes wrathstone good (and a lotbetter than what's it valued at in Rawr) is that it has a CD that perfectly matches the CD of AW. In reality you'll ALWAYS pop wrathstone together with AW (and a speed pot, and possibly heroism as well) and get a boosted effect. I personally like the wrathstone a lot even if only for that purpose... Extra boost damage on demand. This effect isn't moddeled in rawr yet, and it'll put the overall DPS value of wrathstone lower than it should be.

Don't throw away your trinkets with 2min CD's just yet. It'll be interestign to see how things play out when they do get modelled in rawr...

 

vorda

Isn't it possible to just manually edit the trinket and add say, 20% to the AP amount? Or am I oversimplifying things like that?

edit:
I tested this just now and it's correct. I'm assuming the value of crit has gone up considerably because of our t9 2pc. This is also why lowering HoW is a dps increase, since it doesn't apply RV. The increased value of crit with t9 2pc didn't show up earlier because it seems we delayed a lot of RV abilities when HoW was high in the list.
I just checked in my current gear, lowering HoW in the FCFS is a dps loss untill you gain 2pc t9, at which point it seems to take a certain quality of gear to make the difference above 1-2 dps.

As for the libram CD, I just stacked RV on 4 target dummies for a short while while spamming a cancelaura macro, the quickest refresh was ~7 seconds for me: World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

 

Neraya

That may be a quick fix to get a slightly more accurate result... but that would also mean it'll double dip on the AW part because AW already is calculated in in overall average damage as well. But it's a lot more complex than that in real situations.


Suppose you have a long boss fight... You have some damage parts and some running around parts. The running around parts happen more or less predictably and you can work your AW around it...

You wait for 5stacks of SOV, you potentially wait for Berserk and/or DC:G procs, Pop AW, pot, wrathstone... Seeing how a lot of ouf damage is about double dipping (even tripple dipping to a degree) and stacking leads to nonlinearly more damage (not going to say exponential, but it's "sort of" that). "on demand" type damage increases like this can make a huge impact, and it's especially nice when there's parts in the fight where you have burn phases and can save up for that. At least you get the wrathstone & AW, maybe berserk, maybe DC:G, your libram should be up etc.

There's something to say about "higher average damage". But Having a "controlable burn boost" is just as big an issue. I'll personally hang on to wrathstone and keep it handy for those fights where I can make the most out of it. Where another "overall better" trinket may be more usefull in other fights.

 

Baklava09

Few things I would like to point out here that I've noticed.

Crit seems to get so much better that [Inscribed Ametrine] gets better than [Bold Cardinal Ruby] in any yellow slot where there is at least a 4 strength bonus. Test it out and see in the bis plate list!

Wrathstone and Mjonir Runestone both get better than FotFF and continue to scale better the more amount of crit we have.

The Executioner's Vice neckpiece listed on Plate BiS list is the i245 one. There is a i258 version as well.



Here is my updated BiS Plate list! - 9,457 DPS.

If you can get your hands on the Ring of Calleous Aggression (i258) your dps will go to 9,524

This is done in rawr 2.2.13
To get the correct DPS amount you must follow these steps.

Step 1. On all tier gear right click - edit - set name and change it to Turalyon's Battlegear. Currently the blood elf version is not working.

Step 2. On the libram of valiance - edit - Special effects edit - cooldown changed from 45 seconds to 10 seconds.

BiS Plate

 

TheEnder

How is the runestone even remotely close to wrathstone?

Armorpen only effects ~40% of our damage; how can it be -that- good of a trinket?

 

vorda

First off, 2pc t9 greatly increases the value of crit. (edit: right, this isn't relevant, both trinkets have a passive crit bonus)
Secondly, the value of ArP scales with gear. A stat like AP is always a fixed DPS bonus per point, independent of other gear.

 

TheEnder

I understand both points; but armorpen will only increase white/cs/ds damage. AP still double dips for us, even if it is static, and STR will still scale incredibly well as a result.

I'm not so much implying that the runestone is better than Fury but asking how it is close to wrathstone for DPS gain more than anything.

The crit/str gem point, additionally, is something I will definately have to look into. The t9 bonus may also make agility pieces -that- much more beneficial to us due to the high crit we get from them; unless it's shown that the t9 bonus forces RV to crit based on spell crit.

 

Baklava09

Here are a few comparisons using the BiS list. This assumes Greatness and Death's Choice don't stack.

Dark Matter - 9,524 dps
Comet's Trail - 9,513 dps
Mjonir Runestome - 9,448 dps
Wrathstone - 9,434 dps
Mirror of Truth - 9,424 dps
Fury of the Five Flights - 9,415 dps

Crit just gets that good for us.

It seems at that gear level any slot bonus of +6 agility is worth a yellow gem.

 

• Zurm

I've been discussing the issue of Greatness + Paragon stacking with Endoscient. It seems most of the reason Rawr hasn't implemented is less from a theory standpoint and more from a technical standpoint. To get the proc to work correctly, every module would have to be updated.

If you look at existing precedents, there is no reason they shouldn't stack. Currently the only stack restrictions that exist are among PvP items that use the EXACT SAME SPELL, and of course the various Greatness cards (you can equip a STR and AGI one, for example, but the procs share an ICD) which also cast the same spell. Paragon and Greatness are two different spells, and there is no reason they shouldn't stack. If you want to have Paragon working "properly" in Rawr, simply change the proc to a STR one.

I firmly believe that the two trinkets will stack fully, making the BIS trinkets Death's Verdict and DM:G.

 

Endoscient

When someone actually gets the trinket and finds out if it stacks or not, I will implement it into the Ret module right away. Just hold your horses until then, and as Zurm said you can change the proc to 450 Strength if you want to model them stacking before then.

 

Gormal

9543 BiS Plate (Blood Elf). Playing with my current gear, it looks like once you get 4pt9, you can start gemming crit/str for good bonuses.

 

Baklava09

You get a 1 dps upgrade by using inscribed gems instead of bold gems in your belt.

Nice notice on the Priority btw but I am really confused.

I never thought I would see HoW on the bottom of the list.


Edit: Btw looking at my current character on live armory, it is showing only a 2 dps difference using this priority.

Judgement > CS > Divine Storm > Consecration > HoW > Exorcism.

 

• frmorrison

You forgot Banner on your list (new 5-man trinket with ArP). It is a least 10 dps more than Mirror.

RV's ability to crit is based off melee crit, which does help the scaling with Agility gear even more. I'll update the FCFS priority sometime this evening for even more dps (HoW is weak compared to RV abilities w/2T9).

DK - Ashbane Failure is the condiment that gives success its flavor.

 

yamamoto

I am hesitant to post this gear set because it is lower than your Blood Elf BiS Hard+ All set, but for some reason all your sets come up lower than the advertised DPS even with all the changes you suggest to make in the OP. Going by the number I get, this is higher by about 200 DPS, possibly making it a 9.8k ish set

FilePlanet: Retribution BiS List

 

Gormal

9638 BiS Plate/Leather (Blood Elf) and actually uses 4pt9.

This is using CS>HoW>J for comparison purposes against the OP. You might want to specify the rotation to set in the original criteria.

 

• frmorrison

I get 9584 dps out of your set, mine is 9631. I have no idea why we are not getting the same dps.

Anyway, it seems the All Items set is unlikely to be used for a while (until Rogues and Ferals get it), so best to focus on the Plate one.

DK - Ashbane Failure is the condiment that gives success its flavor.

 

SwordSa1nt

Chestplate of the Frostwolf Hero - Items - Sigrie the lvl 258 version. It's kinda better than the tier 9 258 lvl chest. Depending on hitcap they are a bit better combo than replacing tier 9 legs, which by me, are the strongest tier piece, with Legplates of Ascension.

 

Baklava09

Chestplate of the Frostwolf Hero is definitely a good chestpiece, and is listed in frmorrison's BiS Leather + Plate set.

If you can find a way to fit it into the BiS Plate priority and still get the dps of the other list then by all means post it here. As for the leggings, they have too much expertise. With Glyph of Seal of Vengeance, there are only a few pieces you can use with expertise. In my personal opinion, the boots and the belt are much better choices than the leggings.

 

yamamoto

Just to double check, you are using 2.2.13 correct?