I think no one mentioned that 50 dps of the Exorcism glyph(aprox 12k dmg over an average 4 min fight) is practically much more the difference between critting or not critting 2-3 extra abilities in the course of that fight, does that feel like it outweights almost passive healing of the DS glyph ? In my opinion no, not unless you are running with at least 3 resto druids, pre-hot-ting absolutely every raid member, before any dmg happens.
About the purpose of these forums, I believe it is for most of us to find ways to perform better, wich includes dpsing better, but we are not rogues, and we're not brought to any raid hardmode or not just for our dps.
I just couldn't give up the glyph slot for what the gain would be. Maybe if you were running primarily 5 man raids, I could see the benefit. You have 1 healer, and the extra heals could mean the difference between 1 member dying and having to run back and the whole party getting wiped and restarting a boss. For higher raids, like 10-25 mans, there should be enough healers, and every point of damage dealt is significant.
Plus the idea of having to rebuy or craft glyphs if the benefit of the GoDS doesn't help you out as much as you might hope. Better, IMO, to stick with the tried and true DPS glyphs that a Ret Pally should already have.
i respect that someone wants to use that but for me its pointles. We r retributions so we must do dps first of all. Things like combo-divine sacrifice/hand of sacrefice +divine shield should be sufficient help for healers in riding enviroment....but this still is great pvp glyph ,particulary for 5vs5 arena and BGs
I really appreciate this thread. It is an interesting option. My raid lead primary looks at how much damage that I do. But some guilds might require people to use this glyph, or use it for certain fights. It is really down to what will get you your raid spot. If raid spot isn't in question, I'd recomend it over exocism glyph only if that becomes an option, but not over the other major 3.
Divine Storm has a cooldown of 10 seconds. On average any one of those seconds the chance of dying is as high as another. The chance Divine Storm will heal on the proper second is 1 in 10 (10%).
*Snip*
Your premise starts wrong, all resulting assumptions are moot. Segmenting time into second increments and comparing that to the cooldown tells you nothing, because a player killing damage event is not restricted to second intervals, nor is the heal required to coincide with the damage, or even occur within near proximity time-wise for it to have an effect. I could just as easily claim that time is a real number and as such that the chance of DS being helpful is mathematically insignificant.
Really, attempting to solve the problem of probability is a no-starter, because there is no effective limitation on whether it helped or not except the obvious "He would have been topped off by a Cheal/Wild Regrowth/JoL/... anyways", and I doubt anyone here is willing to model where each and every healing event occurs in a raid and why, both at the player and the smart-heal AI level.
I have read all previous posts and this is my point of view over this glyph. To be honest i would not use it but not because it is bad or unacceptable for a dps class to drop a dps glyph over this one but just cause i do not think the additional heal would actually save the day. However i am not a fan of the idea that if healers cannot heal something then swap them with some who can. I am sure that most of you remember the enormous raid damage that groups suffered on the first days that XT and Razorscale were engaged (the damage of the spwawning adds was later nerfed).
The idea that the use of this glyph was accused for in the 1st place was that most of the time using DV will not probably heal anyone if healers can handle the job and in Hardmode scenarios they will probably have the gear and required skill to overheal the raid dmg. But in a progress fight that gear is not enough and when XT used his earthquake in the early encounters of Ulduar healers lacked the gear to overheal it sometimes and during that time a glyphed DV would certainly offered some help to raid healing (assuming that a 10k crit DV would heal 4k to 4 ppl).
So my point is that if you really search the encounters you could find a way to use that glyph so what is so bad in having this glyph in mind.
Plugged this into Rawr to see what the dps loss looked like, dropping legguards of ascension for T9 and switching out SoV dropped 41 dps in my full plate BiS setup. I dunno about you guys but it seemed to me like an ok trade. Course there are fights where you NEED every drop of dps you can get, i dunno, i might just have to grab a set of legs and walk around with some stacks of Glyphs of Veng and DS so im able to switch depending on what fights require.
Listen to Zurm. He speaks the truth.
Trying to compare this measly contribution to overhealing like it's somehow useful utility is misleading. Unless a healing effect is of sufficient power that you can contribute enough to raid survival that you can actually DROP a healer slot, it contributes nothing whatsoever except meter padding. DPS, on the other hand, you cant never have enough of.
You can't sit here on a theorycloud and say youre comparing 50 DPS to 77 HPS and think it's somehow a useful comparison.
Additionally, something's been bugging me for a long time. I don't understand why people seem so eager to drop Glyph of Exo, yet love Glyph of Consecrate. On any fight with movement, of which there are many, Glyph of Cons can even hurt. A 2-second longer consecration does exactly nothing when it's ticking 10 yards from where the boss is now located. It is also delaying you putting a new Cons down.
Zurm brought up something about Exo that is very important for maximizing DPS. It's burst, and it's ranged. Exo is important because it is often the ability you use when you are incapable of using anything else, just as often due to range/movement as much as it's place in the FCFS system.
Exo glyph boosts the ability you use as filler when you are running out from shock blasts, closing to a new tenticle, or providing emergency snap help to finish off a healing Tree on Freya because the player assigned to it died. Its the tool you use when it's too dangerous to be in melee, or when you need to swap targets. Its the ability you cast as you are running to the black hole. Exo's importance is much higher than it's mere numbers when maximizing your DPS, and in many pre-nerf hard mode situations, it has been better to glyph for it over consecration.
Thank you Redcape for this great topic, although it has morphed into a pure dps vs. utility player with great arguements on both sides.
My opinion is a Paladin is primarly a utility player that brings DPS to the table.
If you want to be pure DPS then don't burn your pts into Protection to get the Raid bubble...
I too have ignored Glyph of Divine Storm forever until this thread, I never knew it was a smart heal >assumed healed closest 4 to me.
Current raiding TOC 10/25 I'm actually considering dropping Glyph of Consecrate (as Brekkie also indicates actually may hurt your dps) due to the high mobility fights. Thus now considering my 3 glyphs as Judge, Exo & Divine Storm primarily due to TOC-10 hard mode
Regarding SOV glyph, my expertise not capped but very close so don't wanna "burn" my glyph spot on just a few exp pts.
The only fight were DS glyph would be a potentially usefull thing. Faction Champions, is also the one fight where it won't be effective due to the AOE supression buff they're getting.
My opinion is a Paladin is primarly a utility player that brings DPS to the table.
Sorry, but this isn't the case. If this is your opinion and you stand by that, you would take all the utility talents first at the cost of dps talents, and this isn't what you're doing as a ret. You take all the DPS talents you can get and then fill up with whatever talents will provide the overall best benefit to the raid afterwards.
Yes, we have utility, even when just doing our damage rotation (replenishment, jol/jow, +crit damage on boss, ...), but that's also the case of almost every other DPS class. Ask your raidleader why you're getting your raid spot. It's not because you're utility that can dps, but because you're dps that has some utility other DPS doesn't have, so they take you rather than rogue #5.
Sometimes a raid utility talent like DiSac is worth taking even if it means you have to give up some DPS 'utility' (debuf usually)because another class can provide the very same dps utility / debuff.
The DS glyph definately has a place, mainly in pvp, it may be usefull on some specific fights in a 10man, it's less usefull in 25mans, for the most part the EXTRA healing it does (DS itself still does the bulk of the heal) isn't worth giving up the DPS for, but check with your raidleader/guildmaster what he prefers.
Just remember that utility wise, a properly timed AoW FoL is much, much more likely to save someone's life than the extra bit of healing DS did at the time it came up in your rotation. If you're holding off hitting the DS button to get the DS healing effect 'at the right time', you're loosing a lot more dps than the 50Dps of the exo glyph.
The problem with the glyph is not that it's a 50dps over 77HPS choice, the key point is that you can't viably make the (extra) healing happen at the precise moment it's needed.
If you are going to get the DS glyph. Drop the Exo one for it, DO NOT drop the cons one for it (for PVE). The Cons glyph is a tremendous mana saver as well as a means to open up our cooldowns and increases DPS more than just the 2 extra ticks of Cons, because those 2 ticks means you have room for hitting another ability earlier and thus allowing more abilities in the same timeframe. There's mobility in fights, but I still find myself standing in the same spot for long enough durations to make it better than the exo glyph.
I find it a bit disconcerting how many good threads tend to degenerate towards the same "old" arguments. The original post was quite an interesting read in dissecting the math behind the glyph. Past that we had a number of arguments along the the lines of "If you need the heal from DS glyph, your healers are slacking", "As DPS your job is to focus on DPS" or "If you can't drop a healer thanks to the glyph, it's useless" (yes, there were good posts further down the thread, but a rather disappointing number of posts seemed to be addressing the principle of trading damage for healing).
Comparing utility against DPS (or HPS or tanking) is a highly subjective matter and really the best we can usually do is just to get the numbers out in the open and let people make the choices that feel right for them in any given situation. Perhaps the argument would go differently if the comparison was between burst vs sustained or AoE vs single target DPS.
Current raiding TOC 10/25 I'm actually considering dropping Glyph of Consecrate (as Brekkie also indicates actually may hurt your dps) due to the high mobility fights. Thus now considering my 3 glyphs as Judge, Exo & Divine Storm primarily due to TOC-10 hard mode
Regarding SOV glyph, my expertise not capped but very close so don't wanna "burn" my glyph spot on just a few exp pts.
Not to re-open utility vs. DPS, merely to commentate on where this glyph would fit if you replaced another:
Glyph of Judgement is a no-brainer - 10% more damage on a core attack, which often can be our single largest single strike (although edged out in DPS by more rapid CS).
Glyph of Consecration is not a no-brainer, but check the Ret threads (3.0, 3.1, and 3.2) - it is highly important. For every argument that "you lose the 2 seconds having to move early" you can balance this with "you gain 2 extra seconds by leaving consecration under a boss you had to move away from." However the core importance is Global Cooldowns. 10 seconds fits in our FCFS priority far better. In short - you are able to use your abilities closer to coming off cooldown, therefore use more abilities in a given fight. Dropping the Consecration glyph is a very hard hit on your DPS - just check the spreadsheets and Rawr.
Glyph of Exorcism is nice, but our weakest glyph. Exorcism has a very long cooldown (15 seconds!) and does not necessarily hit significantly hard. Typically this is actually the glyph most easily replaced with least repercussions.
Glyph of Seal of Vengeance is an excellent glyph. Expertise is close to Str in value (higher for some people in some simulations in some gear). 10 "free" expertise is a lot of itemization which can be used on other stats, allowing wider gear choice. Again, view the 3.2 Ret thread for information regarding its benefit - even using only 4 of the 10 expertise (i.e. going 6 over cap) can make it more valuable than Exorcism.
TLDR: Do your research on the other glyphs if you decide to use Glyph of Divine Storm. Make sure the replaced glyph has the least negative impact.
Rock: "We're sub-standard DPS. Nerf Paper, Scissors are fine."
Paper: "OMG, WTF, Scissors!"
Scissors: "Rock is OP and Paper are QQers. We need PvP buffs."
Thanks for the feedback on my posts.
Tested DS on last week's TOC-10 by dropping Conc.
"me no likey.."
Went back to the AOE just like you said, just drop the AOE before I have to run after those kobalds, etc..
Plus notice a big hit on my mana useage.
I "had" to use judgement of wisdom, regardless of party makeup.
I got a new item, so also changed glyph back to Vengeance to get my expertise back.
So back to the standard EJ recommendations >>conc, judge, veng.
Also, depending upon fight/situation I can decide again to use JOL or JOW without pushing oom threshold.
Even though I went back to the standard, it was worth the mental/field check.
Side note on TOC faction fight, I respec'd my offspec to PVP-RET to help with that specific battle (didn't wear resilience gear, only pvp spec). Of course my dps dropped a little.. but survival wins over eating dirt.. comments on this idea?
I am not advocating using Divine Storm Glyph over Consecrate at all. Consecrate increases our dps substantially and also lowers mana costs which can be key if you are lacking any mana regen buffs - particularly relevant in 10s, less so in properly set up 25s.
Judgement, Consecrate and Vengeance glyphs all add really substantial amounts of dps and should be the standard for all raiding rets. That said, if your expertise is simply too high due to the way gear happens to fall to make proper use of SoV Glyph then you would most likely downgrade to Exorcism which is drastically worse than the other choices in terms of raw output. In that case (and only in that case) do I think GoDS is a good option.
There are other potential considerations to keep in mind, though they are largely fight specific. For example, on Freya the GoDS is often 2-4x as good as indicated in the initial post due to there being so many targets to affect, and on Faction Champs you may not be DSing at all to avoid breaking CC (and because the damage is 25% of normal). Whether you have healing issues on a particular fight or are willing to reglyph for particular fights is not particularly standard however, so in most cases the simple heuristic given in the previous paragraph will suffice.
Thanks for the feedback on my posts.
Tested DS on last week's TOC-10 by dropping Conc.
"me no likey.."
Went back to the AOE just like you said, just drop the AOE before I have to run after those kobalds, etc..
Plus notice a big hit on my mana useage.
I "had" to use judgement of wisdom, regardless of party makeup.
I got a new item, so also changed glyph back to Vengeance to get my expertise back.
So back to the standard EJ recommendations >>conc, judge, veng.
Also, depending upon fight/situation I can decide again to use JOL or JOW without pushing oom threshold.
Even though I went back to the standard, it was worth the mental/field check.
Side note on TOC faction fight, I respec'd my offspec to PVP-RET to help with that specific battle (didn't wear resilience gear, only pvp spec). Of course my dps dropped a little.. but survival wins over eating dirt.. comments on this idea?
For the initial post of using Glyph of Divine Storm over Glyph of Consecration: You are using more mana every minute due to using Consecration more (44% base mana more a minute to be exact).
As for the Faction Champion encounter offtopic: Depends on your raid composition and what targets you receive. In general, you should be fine without the need of using improved Freedom nor improved Sacred Shield (assuming here that you are running the 0/17/54 or other variants).
With the T10 2set looking finalised (allbeit needing clarification) glyph of DS will be very usefull for heroic/Hardmodes and the paultry price of Exo glyph (if like me you have no problem with Expertise from gear)
i'm terrible at napkin maths so can/has anyone tried running the HPS numbers of a 40% proc DS prioritised rotation on 3/4 mobs seeing as there are less and less singletarget fights.
One thing that is certainly interesting is the possibility that we will cut Exorcism from our rotation almost entirely. DS will be castable dramatically more often with a 40% chance on each melee strike which could mean that our low priority casts like Consecration and Exorcism will make up very little of our damage. If that turns out to be the case the GoEx may end up being halved in value (or potentially more than that) and the GoDS could be increased by 50-100% which would be a fairly powerful argument for using GoDS.
Until we see some math on the actual way the cooldowns fall given t10 though it is very hard to get a sense of the magnitude of the changes.
Why is this thread still active? I was hoping it was due for deletion...
The heal from DS is too weak to have a use in raids these days. Gone are the days of minor over kills (with the one exception of the AoE damage pulse on twins, and you still shouldn't be sitting that low). If you die in raids, it's usually because you stood in fire, didn't get out of the way of something big coming at you, or your healers failed. Most importantly, DS isn't a button you can just push whenver you want, and that's what makes it an aweful tool when it comes to healing. It almost never is triggered when it's needed.
Please, let this one die. As the pages earlier showed, it's been argued to death, and the only viable excuse we came up with earlier for using it is if your healers fail. It goes without saying that if your guild has some kind of extenuating circumstance that you do what you need to try to fix it, but Glyph of DS is never a viable choice when it comes to theory, which focuses on the ideal and typical.
Formally Xyrm/Zurm, the Ret Pally. Now playing my rogue, Zyrm, more casually with RL friends.
Please, let this one die. As the pages earlier showed, it's been argued to death, and the only viable excuse we came up with earlier for using it is if your healers fail. It goes without saying that if your guild has some kind of extenuating circumstance that you do what you need to try to fix it, but Glyph of DS is never a viable choice when it comes to theory, which focuses on the ideal and typical.
If you assume a fight is on farm and your objective is to maximize your speed and killing efficiency then you can afford to totally ignore healing and dismiss deaths as due to incompetence. However, when pushing hard content you are wiping and raid members die. You cannot deny that many first kills end up being made with raiders dead and the raid just barely being held together long enough for the boss to fall over. We don't gear and spec for easy (farm) content because quite simply you don't HAVE to be optimal to within 1% for that. Even excellent raiders make mistakes or don't anticipate perfectly while learning an encounter and an extra safety net gives your raid that extra chance to succeed without having to wipe and go again.
If we don't care about small increases to healing because they won't matter, then your holy paladins could drop their points in Divinity for Divine Strength to increase their judgement damage. They obviously don't do this, and this is because even though 1% more healing isn't a big increase in output (in fact it is distinctly less than what GoDS provides) it is more useful than a very small damage increase.
If autoattack, CS, DS and Judge can reset the cooldown we should see the cooldown refreshed every 3 seconds on average. This would mean we could easily see effective cooldowns on CS and DS of 4.5 seconds each with Judgement and Consecration filling in the gaps. Given the likely need to cast DP and occasionally use some other utility you may end up casting Exorcism as rarely as once a minute. I would suggest that the GoE is pretty godawful at that point, probably providing somewhere in the neighborhood of 12 dps. Also at this point GoDS would be providing 150 hps on a single target, and from 300-600 hps in a multitarget situation.
I will note that 12 dps (admittedly a bit of a guess on my part at this point based on a effective 1 min CD on Exorcism) is 15% of 1 % of our dps. .15% dps is a quite miserable number compared to even 150 hps which is 3.8% of a healer's output, or as high as (ideal case) 15% of a healer's output in a 4 target situation.
To repeat, I think that if you are actually making use of most of the expertise from GoSoV, use that along with Consecration and Judgement. However, if we do end up in a situation where we have the linked changes of much lowered DS cooldown and much increased Exorcism cooldown it very much makes sense to consider swapping these glyphs. Remember we are not comparing abstract concepts of healing and damage, but rather specific amounts. When it comes down to 77 hps or 40 dps, I think there is definitely a reasonable debate to be had. When it is 12 dps and 150-600 hps I think the choice is very clear in the favour of GoDS.
Even excellent raiders make mistakes or don't anticipate perfectly while learning an encounter and an extra safety net gives your raid that extra chance to succeed without having to wipe and go again.
No arguement from me regarding even the best raiders messing up; hell I make dumb mistakes often enough. But the extra safety net provided is entirely insignificant. When you first brought this discussion up, I decided to give you the benefit of the doubt. Throughout the end of Ulduar and wipes on progression for TotC, I examined many of our first few deaths on given fights, and analyzed the logs for how DS lined up with them. I didn't posted because I really, sincerly hoped this thread would be deleted due to inactivity (and I deeply believe that this thread serves no purpose, no offense to you Redcape). As I've said before, I have only the highest respect for your work and contribution to these boards, but this is one subject I will violently disagree with you on. I have formal documentation at home (a spreadsheet), but if you want to listen to my anecdotal evidence for now here it goes...
Out of something like 150 inspected deaths (there was no rhyme or reason, I just looked at early deaths and ignored tanks or insignificant deaths due to a wipe), THREE of them had DS land just before their death (meaning at some point when they were taking the final source(s) of damage that killed them or effectively healed them right before that). In NONE of these cases would the glyph have helped. Again, I forget the exact number since I'm at work, but no less than 135 of those deaths were MASSIVE overkills (eg people pulling a "deer-in-headlights" on icehowl).
So, here I propose a challenge. If someone can provide ONE example via combat logs where Glyph of Divine Storm (or the Divine Storm heal, for that matter) did or could have saved someone from dying, I will rest my case. If more than one is found, I'll even support the cause. I tried to find one, and couldn't. This does NOT mean find a case where someone died with <1k overkill or whatever your DS heals for. This means find an example of a timely DS heal that either saved someone's life or had it been marginally stronger would have. The logs would ideally be hosted on WoL or another major site... and don't try to doctor them, I'll know!
I'm willing to bet that the chance for DS to save someone is so insignificant due to the long cooldown and the way it targets (note that there is a slight delay between picking it's targets and actually healing them, which often times causes it to land after another healer already hit that person with a much larger heal), that no one will find it.
Last edited by Zurm : 10/09/09 at 1:21 PM.
Formally Xyrm/Zurm, the Ret Pally. Now playing my rogue, Zyrm, more casually with RL friends.
No arguement from me regarding even the best raiders messing up; hell I make dumb mistakes often enough. But the extra safety net provided is entirely insignificant. When you first brought this discussion up, I decided to give you the benefit of the doubt. Throughout the end of Ulduar and wipes on progression for TotC, I examined many of our first few deaths on given fights, and analyzed the logs for how DS lined up with them. I didn't posted because I really, sincerly hoped this thread would be deleted due to inactivity (and I deeply believe that this thread serves no purpose, no offense to you Redcape). As I've said before, I have only the highest respect for your work and contribution to these boards, but this is one subject I will violently disagree with you on. I have formal documentation at home (a spreadsheet), but if you want to listen to my anecdotal evidence for now here it goes...
Out of something like 150 inspected deaths (there was no rhyme or reason, I just looked at early deaths and ignored tanks or insignificant deaths due to a wipe), THREE of them had DS land just before their death (meaning at some point when they were taking the final source(s) of damage that killed them or effectively healed them right before that). In NONE of these cases would the glyph have helped. Again, I forget the exact number since I'm at work, but no less than 135 of those deaths were MASSIVE overkills (eg people pulling a "deer-in-headlights" on icehowl).
So, here I propose a challenge. If someone can provide ONE example via combat logs where Glyph of Divine Storm (or the Divine Storm heal, for that matter) did or could have saved someone from dying, I will rest my case. If more than one is found, I'll even support the cause. I tried to find one, and couldn't. This does NOT mean find a case where someone died with <1k overkill or whatever your DS heals for. This means find an example of a timely DS heal that either saved someone's life or had it been marginally stronger would have.
I'm willing to bet that the chance for DS to save someone is so insignificant due to the long cooldown and the way it targets (note that there is a slight delay between picking it's targets and actually healing them, which often times causes it to land after another healer already hit that person with a much larger heal), that no one will find it.
First off, EJ rarely deletes threads. If they are bad they get locked or moved to the banhammer, otherwise they just stop displaying on the default page (you can still load them up changing the time settings on the bottom).
If I was expertise capped (26 expertise, not going to happen until I had that 258 Mace), I would would use Glyph of divine storm over Exo right now. I can see the effective healing done by it in WoL, and it gets bigger after every upgrade. Since the heal targets the lowest HP guy (usually a tank, but often it heals a random raid member), it is usually useful healing. Now that heal may cause another healer's heal to overheal since a good healer will try to fill the small square in Grid, I can't know that a healer's heal would have landed in time.
Millions of words are written annually purporting to tell how to beat the races, whereas the best possible advice on the subject is found in the three monosyllables: 'Do not try.'
No arguement from me regarding even the best raiders messing up; hell I make dumb mistakes often enough. But the extra safety net provided is entirely insignificant. When you first brought this discussion up, I decided to give you the benefit of the doubt. Throughout the end of Ulduar and wipes on progression for TotC, I examined many of our first few deaths on given fights, and analyzed the logs for how DS lined up with them. I didn't posted because I really, sincerly hoped this thread would be deleted due to inactivity (and I deeply believe that this thread serves no purpose, no offense to you Redcape). As I've said before, I have only the highest respect for your work and contribution to these boards, but this is one subject I will violently disagree with you on. I have formal documentation at home (a spreadsheet), but if you want to listen to my anecdotal evidence for now here it goes...
Out of something like 150 inspected deaths (there was no rhyme or reason, I just looked at early deaths and ignored tanks or insignificant deaths due to a wipe), THREE of them had DS land just before their death (meaning at some point when they were taking the final source(s) of damage that killed them or effectively healed them right before that). In NONE of these cases would the glyph have helped. Again, I forget the exact number since I'm at work, but no less than 135 of those deaths were MASSIVE overkills (eg people pulling a "deer-in-headlights" on icehowl).
So, here I propose a challenge. If someone can provide ONE example via combat logs where Glyph of Divine Storm (or the Divine Storm heal, for that matter) did or could have saved someone from dying, I will rest my case. If more than one is found, I'll even support the cause. I tried to find one, and couldn't. This does NOT mean find a case where someone died with <1k overkill or whatever your DS heals for. This means find an example of a timely DS heal that either saved someone's life or had it been marginally stronger would have. The logs would ideally be hosted on WoL or another major site... and don't try to doctor them, I'll know!
I'm willing to bet that the chance for DS to save someone is so insignificant due to the long cooldown and the way it targets (note that there is a slight delay between picking it's targets and actually healing them, which often times causes it to land after another healer already hit that person with a much larger heal), that no one will find it.
'
The assumption here is that only if the DS heal lands just before a death occurs is it considered a worthy goal. By that same measure healer shouldn't heal someone when at 50% b/c that heal woudln't have saved their life. Instead healers should only heal targets when the health drops below 10% b/c the next hit will kill them. Obviously this would make no sense and we all agree that would not only be foolish but lead to failure. On the same note saying that the DS heal which didn't save a life but simply moved someone from 60% to 70% has no merit is just as foolish. Heck by that same measure when JoL was healing for crazy amounts did any one single JoL heal save a life, I would probably argue it is just as rare, and yet it was considered worthwhile.
The point here is that DS now becomes a measure of healing while dps'ing at little to no cost, and while for a single instant it may not save a life, over the span of a fight and can ease the burden on the healers to some extent allowing them to focus more on where it is needed.
That's a bit silly, though. Just because the extra value of the DS glyph wouldn't have saved a person at that particular moment in time doesn't mean that it wasn't adding value. Its like any other small, incremental benefit. The value is small on its own, but you stack a ton of them up and it becomes significant.
Looking at it the other way, I bet you'd have an awfully hard time finding an instance in which the additional damage from Glyph of Exo, by itself, was enough to turn a wipe into a kill, but that still didn't make it sub-optimal before the new set bonuses. Now, cut that by 50+% or however much typical Exo use will get cut by the set bonus and see if you can find a situation that still fills the bill.
This is the EJ forums. We're here to split hairs and count angels dancing on the head of a pin to find out which combination of angels will help kill the boss 0.0001% better. You might be right, but you're jumping the gun.
Allow us, for a second, to analyze the fact that it is "always" easing the burden of healers by taking a look at this past week's kill of heroic Twin Valkyr 25, one of the higher AoE damage fights in the game, and there is consistent AoE. By choosing this encounter, I'm maximizing the effective healing of DS, so this is the exception rather than the rule.
Duration - 4:08
Total effective healing done - 11959754
My DS healing - 35808 * (effective: 1 - 31.6 %) = 24492.7
My DS healing if I had the Glyph - 39188.3
Difference - 14695.6 healing
Additional contribution it would have made to raid healing is approximately 0.12%. And that's assuming that it didn't increase your percentage of overheal, which it almost certainly would.
Now let's look at my use of exoricsm, and see what it would have given. I was using Judge/Consec/SoV glyphs, so I can add the damage in.
Total damage done - 39081945
My exoricsm damage - 141109
With Glyph - 169330.8
Now obviously everyone will have differening opinions here. The order of magnitude involved is the same. For me, I'll take the 2.6x smaller percentage of the DPS contribtion since my raid role is what? That's right, DPS. And hey, look at the actual damage/healing amounts, damage is higher almost by a factor of 2! If the new 2pc makes us use DS twice as often, I will consider it broken, and would be greatly surprised if it isn't nerfed. That has many PvP liabilities.
Again, I picked a fight in your favor. I'm sure most other fights would end up even more in mine. I want to stress that while DS is a smart heal, there is a gap between target picking and actual healing, meaning it often times will actually overheal. I am NOT arguing that the DS glyph adds no value; rather, I am arguing that the value it adds is not worth the tradeoff, even of the exorcism glyph.
And this whole idea of the DS glyph is a flawed one in the first place because by wearing that much expertise is not ideal. You SHOULD be using most of the SoV glyph (unless you're a dwarf). Don't be an ilvl whore and just get upgrades beacuse you see a bigger STR number. The SoV glyph, when fully or mostly used, proves a very significant DPS increase; one that no other glyph other than Consec or Judgement can even hold a candle to.
Please, stop throwing these "but it could" or "it still helps" arguements at me. I'm showing you numbers as to why it just doesn't make sense. And regarding Fmorisson's post, you are arguing symantics. I was hoping for a lock ;P
Last edited by Zurm : 10/09/09 at 2:07 PM.
Formally Xyrm/Zurm, the Ret Pally. Now playing my rogue, Zyrm, more casually with RL friends.
08/26/09, 5:36 PM
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